The Dark Knight part deux

[RedEyedGhost]

[quote name='Intercept' post='1448276' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.50']I lost all credibility when you said you've read Dark Victory and you don't remember anything about Robin in it.

You didn't read Dark Victory. [b]The entire fucking comic is about Robin.[/b] In fact there's an entire 8 pages devoted from when Bruce met Dick, with a beautiful side-by-side panel shot of Bruce as a boy speaking with Alfred about the death of his parents and Dick speaking to Alfred about the death of Bruce's parents, after he asks him why a billionaire would decide to adopt a circus orphan.[/quote]

Then fault the comic for [b]sucking entirely[/b], and it just blended in with all the other boring Robin bullshit.

[quote]If you're going to hate the character atleast have the decency not to look like a total tool and lie.[/quote]

Stay classy, Intercept, stay classy.

[quote]Batman actually argues about Robin about the costume as the final closing panel of Dark Victory, which you very obviously didn't read. He chooses to wear those colors [b]because they were the colors his parents gave him.[/b] If you want to give me bullshit about how ineffective it is, then realistically Batman would design a suit like Iron Man instead of running around in tights.[/quote]

So in addition to being a shitty sidekick, he's also a moron.

[quote]Jason Todd was ANYTHING but generic. Batman took him under his wing even though he knew it was the wrong thing to do. Jason did not have the natural athleticism and grace Dick had, nor did he have Tim's analytical mind. All he had was rage. He was a kid from the streets who had his parents killed, and out of his better judgment, Bruce still allowed him to become Robin even though he knew Jason wasn't cut out for it. His death still haunts Batman to this day.[/quote]

Not athletic or analytic = not generic? Whatever.

[quote]You don't know what you're talking about. You didn't even know Killing Joke was Barbara getting shot, not Jason dying.[/quote]

Oh yes, because I don't know the stories of every Batman graphic novel off the top of my head, I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.

[quote]Also, there was a Robin: Year One. Yay for more pretentious douchery.[/quote]

What "pretentious douchery"? Your post?

[Intercept]

[quote name='Il Chiarimento' post='1448237' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.21']Can it be done well? Anything's possible. Will it? Probably not. Robin brings alot of baggage. Bringing in kids to 'freshen up' a series/franchise is already a bad idea. And the popular perception of the Robin character is cheesy and childish, things this new series has gone out of its way to avoid. There's no way to avoid the initial negative expectation most film goers will have towards a Robin character. And it'd be hard damned work to convince them otherwise.[/quote]

You mean besides the public expectation of Batman of every Batman movie after Batman Returns? I recall Mr. Freeze, Two Face, Riddler, the Joker... Okay, basically his entire rogues gallery, was seen as a joke.

I agree with you. Anything can be done well, and I think a good Robin will be hard to do simply because it's hard to find young actors that good.

[quote]And really all of this applies to alot of the other questionable inclusions discussed earlier. Some of the comic book campiness just doesn't fit into Nolan's 'gritty, realistic' batman. It can be made to fit with alot of hard work, but its often alot easier not to bother. The next films don't need Robin.[/quote]

Your bias is showing when you immediately dismiss Robin as campy. In fact it's a pretty serious issue if you actually read any comics with Robin involved instead of making a personal judgment call.

Alfred gets furious at Bruce for agreeing to place a child in harm's way. The press even gives Batman an enormous amount of flak for it.

[Intercept]

[quote name='Relic' post='1448292' date='Jul 20 2008, 23.02']ummm calm down?[/quote]

I just can't stand anyone fronting.

I called him on his bullshit and now I'm done.

[Relic]

[quote name='Intercept' post='1448294' date='Jul 21 2008, 00.03']Your bias is showing when you immediately dismiss Robin as campy. In fact it's a pretty serious issue if you actually read any comics with Robin seriously involved instead of making a personal judgment call.[/quote]


??

and your bias for little boys in tight hot pants is showing...

[Caligula_K]

[quote]Batman actually argues with Robin about the costume as the final closing panel of Dark Victory, which you very obviously didn't read. He chooses to wear those colors because they were the colors his parents gave him. If you want to give me bullshit about how ineffective it is, then realistically Batman would design a suit like Iron Man instead of running around in tights.[/quote]

We know the reasons he has a colorful suit. It still, to me, doesn't quite fit in with the general Batman feel (though Lord O' Bones makes a good point- the Forever suit in itself wasn't half bad).

[quote]Jason Todd was ANYTHING but generic. Batman took him under his wing even though he knew it was the wrong thing to do. Jason did not have the natural athleticism and grace Dick had, nor did he have Tim's analytical mind. All he had was rage. He was a kid from the streets who had his parents killed, and out of his better judgment, Bruce still allowed him to become Robin even though he knew Jason wasn't cut out for it. His death still haunts Batman to this day.[/quote]

The funny thing about Jason Todd, though, is that the fans disliked him so much that they actually voted he die. There has been some good drama about Batman's guilt over it (I particularly liked Clayface's impersonation of him in Hush) but Jason Todd himself was pretty much a failure of a character- I even find Death in the Family, aside from Todd's death, to be a pretty bad comic, though I blame the LSD the writers were on more for that than Todd's character (seriously... The Joker as an Iranian diplomat?).

Anyway, some of us just like our Batman to fight alone. The whole Robin storyline never made much sense to me, even in the context of the well written Dark Victory; I never quite understood why Batman, if he needed to reach out to someone so bad, would choose an eight year old kid, no matter the parallels between them, especially since he feels guilt for not confiding in Dent- this led me to think he would prefer to confide in Gordon. Oh well, to each his own.

And seriously dude, calm down. If I hadn't just reread a lot of my old Batman trades in anticipation for the movie, I'd have forgotten half the shit that goes down in them too.

[Brude]

[quote name='rhombencephalon' post='1447992' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.33']In general, I think Riddler is the next obvious step. The problem as I see it really does boil down to "How do we top this?"[/quote]
Riddler feels right to me, too. It's who my friends and I all seemed to agree on when making guesses after the film.

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1447998' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.42']Cast Daniel Day Lewis as the Riddler?[/quote]
You should work in casting...

[quote name='Commodore' post='1448003' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.46']I heard a rumor that Anthony Michael Hall was gonna be Riddler, but obviously that isn't true since he was the reporter.[/quote]
I thought that was him. I can't imagine he would do such a small cameo unless it was in preparation for a bigger role in a future film? Maybe he is to become a villain, or have some other major role next time around.

[quote name='Commodore' post='1448003' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.46']BTW I loved William Fitchner's small part for some reason, he was a badass with that shotgun.[/quote]
Again, a very small role for a very respected character actor in the business. He's one of those ever reliable go-to guys for a major supporting role, always delivers. I wonder if he too might have a more significant role in a later film.

[quote name='Crazydog7' post='1448051' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.18']Was the Scarecrow just in that beginning scene in the parking garage?[/quote]
Yes. I was surprised he was dealt with so quickly but my assumption is that he will be back. Cillian Murphy is just too good.

[Intercept]

[quote name='Brahm_K' post='1448303' date='Jul 20 2008, 23.08']We know the reasons he has a colorful suit. It still, to me, doesn't quite fit in with the general Batman feel (though Lord O' Bones makes a good point- the Forever suit in itself wasn't half bad).[/quote]

Then we're agreeing to disagree. I like the suit and I think the reasons for it are justified. Tim's new suit is more in the line of function and cool. His cape is also much more reminiscent of feathers rather than scalloped like Batman.

[quote]The funny thing about Jason Todd, though, is that the fans disliked him so much that they actually voted he die. There has been some good drama about Batman's guilt over it (I particularly liked Clayface's impersonation of him in Hush) but Jason Todd himself was pretty much a failure of a character- I even find Death in the Family, aside from Todd's death, to be a pretty bad comic, though I blame the LSD the writers were on more for that than Todd's character (seriously... The Joker as an Iranian diplomat?).

Anyway, some of us just like our Batman to fight alone. The whole Robin storyline never made much sense to me, even in the context of the well written Dark Victory; I never quite understood why Batman, if he needed to reach out to someone so bad, would choose an eight year old kid, no matter the parallels between them, especially since he feels guilt for not confiding in Dent- this led me to think he would prefer to confide in Gordon. Oh well, to each his own.[/quote]

And I never understood why a billionaire wouldn't just use therapy to deal with the death of his parents instead of globetrotting on a quest that ultimately culminates into him becoming a vigilante.

Or why he doesn't just hire a bunch of assassins to police Gotham City.

People didn't like Jason Todd because he had bad writers. Bottom line. A character always sucks depending on who's writing it. In retrospect Jason Todd became a character people liked because good writers would explore the impact of his death and why he was chosen as the second Robin.

Spiderman use to be one of my favorite characters, but lately, I hate him cause he's the biggest whiner in the Marvel Universe. He bitches about his uncle dying to Wolverine, and this is a guy who's been taking shit for nearly 100 years, and Wolverine's just like, "Oh your uncle died? Dude that really sucks Pete. I mean I've had my entire family slaughtered before my eyes, every single spouse I've ever taken murdered and I had my entire memory erased after being enslaved by a military project, but Jesus. Your uncle died. I feel like such a pussy now."

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Again, I think that if Dick Grayson is going to be introduced, he needs to be introduced as a kid who is brought into Bruce Wayne's life but only becomes Robin much later.

[Brude]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1448310' date='Jul 21 2008, 00.14']Again, I think that if Dick Grayson is going to be introduced, he needs to be introduced as a kid who is brought into Bruce Wayne's life but only becomes Robin much later.[/quote]
That would make sense. He looses his family about the same age Bruce did and so he maybe even adopts him - not just his ward, but his adopted son. It changes the relationship some, makes the situation, frankly, much more believable. You can do a lot more with that than with the canon history. And it's only a mild change, IMO.

[Intercept]

[quote name='Brudewollen' post='1448315' date='Jul 20 2008, 23.17']That would make sense. He looses his family about the same age Bruce did and so he maybe even adopts him - not just his ward, but his adopted son. It changes the relationship some, makes the situation, frankly, much more believable. You can do a lot more with that than with the canon history. And it's only a mild change, IMO.[/quote]

That can work pretty well, but you would need the character around for a while without him being able to be Robin till he gets older.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Relic' post='1448299' date='Jul 21 2008, 00.04']??

and your bias for little boys in tight hot pants is showing...[/quote]

Be nice Relic. We accept all kinds here. Even Catholic Priests.

[Intercept]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448327' date='Jul 20 2008, 23.24']Be nice Relic. We accept all kinds here. Even Catholic Priests.[/quote]

Don't forget we have altar practice Saturday night, boys.

When you get home sweaty just tell your parents we played football.

[RedEyedGhost]

[quote name='Intercept' post='1448297' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.04']I just can't stand anyone fronting.

I called him on his bullshit and now I'm done.[/quote]

:rolleyes:

[quote name='Brudewollen' post='1448315' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.17']That would make sense. He looses his family about the same age Bruce did and so he maybe even adopts him - not just his ward, but his adopted son. It changes the relationship some, makes the situation, frankly, much more believable. You can do a lot more with that than with the canon history. And it's only a mild change, IMO.[/quote]

I can't really see Nolan's Bruce Wayne adopting a child.

[Mackaxx]

What do the comic events matter anyway?

I was under the impression the movies weren't dogmatically faithful at all.

So this character your talking about doesn't have to be introduced as an 8 year old child.

Seems people are disappearing so far up the comic book series' ass that they arn't seeing the elephant in the room.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Mackaxx' post='1448350' date='Jul 21 2008, 00.34']Seems people are disappearing so far up the comic book series' ass that they arn't seeing the elephant in the room.[/quote]

:lol: I was wondering when you would show up. The Robin Discussion had 'Mackaxx Involvement' written all over it.

[Brude]

[quote name='RedEyedGhost' post='1448340' date='Jul 21 2008, 00.29']I can't really see Nolan's Bruce Wayne adopting a child.[/quote]
Not where he is now, but I don't think Nolan is interested in static characters (assuming Nolan would even still be directing by this point). Adopting a child would signal a major shift in Wayne's focus and perspective, a maturing into both a more adult person and more adult persona. He'd be turning away from his billionaire playboy image and into a father figure - which would make sense for a, by then, somewhat aging superhero.

So, what Wayne do it now? No, but after some more life experience, slowing down a bit, needing something new in his life that is meaningful now that the love of his life is gone? You could go a lot of ways with it, but to add the kid into his life would signal a big change in who Bruce Wayne has become.

[RedEyedGhost]

[quote name='Brudewollen' post='1448390' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.50']Not where he is now, but I don't think Nolan is interested in static characters (assuming Nolan would even still be directing by this point). Adopting a child would signal a major shift in Wayne's focus and perspective, a maturing into both a more adult person and more adult persona. He'd be turning away from his billionaire playboy image and into a father figure - which would make sense for a, by then, somewhat aging superhero.

So, what Wayne do it now? No, but after some more life experience, slowing down a bit, needing something new in his life that is meaningful now that the love of his life is gone? You could go a lot of ways with it, but to add the kid into his life would signal a big change in who Bruce Wayne has become.[/quote]

I could see them telling a version of [u]The Dark Knight Returns[/u] with part of his hiatus from being Batman including his adopting a child, and I think that could play well. But you're right, the current persona of Bruce Wayne would need to undergo some big changes (and they could use his loss of Rachel as the catalyst).

[Mackaxx]

Or they could make robin not shit and have him be an adult

Thus bypassing paedo batman.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]Your bias is showing when you immediately dismiss Robin as campy. In fact it's a pretty serious issue if you actually read any comics with Robin involved instead of making a personal judgment call.[/quote]

In every screen adaptation (Live action or cartoon) he has been corny as shit, usually on the wrong side of irritating. Conceptually sidekicks are pretty fucking silly, doubly so when matched with Batman's 'Dark Knight' persona. Was he ever dealt with well in the comics? Don't know and don't give a shit. Film is a different medium and I can picture a million ways in which a Robin character could fuck up the film, very few in which he wouldn't, and even less in which he'd add something worthwhile to it.

And just to piss off our newfound comic book fanatic friend...

ORGANIC WEBSHOOTERS!
WOLVERINE IN BLACK LEATHER!

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mackaxx' post='1448443' date='Jul 21 2008, 01.29']Or they could make robin not shit and have him be an adult

Thus bypassing paedo batman.[/quote]

Or they could just not had Robin at all.

Thus bypassing sucky Batman.