The Dark Knight part deux

[WarGalley]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']When looking at who would be the next villain, the most important question is WHY? What's that point of said character? What more would they allow the movie to say?[/quote]

This I agree with. Every villain has had some development toward Batman's character and legacy.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']The Joker does this really well. WTF would the Penguin do that would be interesting? It'd just be "Oh wow, another villain, /yawn". This applies to many of them.[/quote]

I don't think the Penguin would make a compelling antagonist on face value but I don't think that's a reason to completely remove him. He'd need to be a side player fostering a fight between Batman and another villain imo. So far the multiple villains has worked well in the Nolan movies and I see no reason to not continue that.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']Catwomen COULD work, but she's not really all that interesting. Maybe have her as a burglar dressed in black. Gets mistaken for Batman. I don't know, it doesn't work on it's own.[/quote]

I don't know about Catwoman but I'd be mildly surprised if there was no female/love interest. Even Nolan's versions have had a touch of Hollywood to them.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']The Riddler might work well, if you base him more off the animated series. As sort of a contrast to the Joker. He's not crazy, he's in control. He's not out to just cause Chaos, he's got a plan. Sort of "Batman trying to stop a criminal mastermind while being hunted by the cops". I don't know, doesn't really say anything interesting either.[/quote]

I don't know. You're almost saying that there are no more themes to explore in Batman's legacy. Perhaps they can't be done as well without the Joker, but they can be done. I think we can still have a 3rd movie better than BB.. but liek everyone says, topping TDK without the Joker would be very hard to do.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1448110' date='Jul 21 2008, 11.19']I want to see a focus on revenge. The next movie needs to be seriously brutal, if it wants to stand up against [i]The Dark Knight[/i]. This one already touched on some issues that I like seeing in Batman stories, with Batman not taking his chances to kill the Joker. I think it would be cool to see them play with that theme even more. He's a vigilante, but he does have values, and watching him struggle with revenge / justice is always entertaining.

As for an antagonist, there is already an obvious setup for one. Batman is being blamed for killing 5 (?) people. Two of them cops. There should be a few people who don't take kindly to that. So there are already a few 'regular' Joes who would have reason to try and take down the Bat. Perhaps someone like The Reaper could be introduced, who was a vigilante like Batman but was not afraid to take it to the next level by killing his targets. You would have someone hunting the 'evil' Batman', who is arguably even worse then the 'enemy'. Cue lots of drama with Gordon, who wants to protect Batman but also needs to appear like he is tracking him down. Cue more drama as criminals are killed, and no one really cares. Since it's part of the 'order of things' (ala Joker's speech).[/quote]

You could also put a lot of new pressure on Batman and his support cast in that type of story - how far is Batman willing to go to avoid capture? What is Gordon willing to do to protect him?

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Brady' post='1448117' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.22']You could also put a lot of new pressure on Batman and his support cast in that type of story - how far is Batman willing to go to avoid capture? What is Gordon willing to do to protect him?[/quote]
Exactly. Not only does it help along Bruce's character development, but it brings Gordon, Alfred, and Fox right along with him.

For instance, in this movie, Batman was willing to hand over his super-duper sonar system to Fox. But what about when he is cornered? What if his real identity was at stake? What would he be willing to do? What would his allies be willing to do?

[WarGalley]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']BTW, the script writers say: [url="http://www.hecklerspray.com/batman-3-catwoman-the-penguin-to-remain-unemployed/200815249.php"]"No Penguin or Catwoman"[/url][/quote]

Heh..

[quote]In fact, people are going so potty over The Dark Knight that they’ve started to pretend that they’ve already seen it just so they can move onto speculation over Batman 3. So we may as well do the same. It’s not like we’ve got anything better to do.[/quote]

This thread is moving so fast right now with Batman 3 speculation I can barely keep up.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1448121' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.25']Exactly. Not only does it help along Bruce's character development, but it brings Gordon, Alfred, and Fox right along with him.

For instance, in this movie, Batman was willing to hand over his super-duper sonar system to Fox. But what about when he is cornered? What if his real identity was at stake? What would he be willing to do? What would his allies be willing to do?[/quote]

I know I'm in the minority here, but this is why I think some sort of scenario like that would be perfect to introduce Dick Grayson into...talk about complications...

And wasn't Two Face responsible for the death of Dick's parents? I can't remember.

[Mya Stone]

Dub and I finally got to see a movie together since having Mav. I'm f-ing thrilled that this was the one we chose to see.

The best Batman I've seen? Yep. I leaned over to Dub and said "This is waaay better than Batman Begins."

I'm not going to add the same praise as everyone else has, I pretty much agree spot on with everyone's assessments (except that ballsy guy posting that he didn't like it :P). I am going to add my two cents and say I personally think Two-Face is still alive. I also saw the mobster's fall as foreshadowing (at the time, I just cringed at the crunch of his ankles, but still) and I also agree that the coin being shown to fall heads up meant he was still alive. I believe the whole speech Gordon and Batman have about not letting the public see that Dent had fallen from grace extends to not allowing them to see him in that form.


One last note, Kris said on the ride home that he didn't think Ledger was that accomplished of an actor until now. I, on the otherhand, always saw greatness in him, and this movie makes me truly miss him all the more. Such an amazing, layered, nuanced performance. We both agree in thinking that no one else should attempt the role, at least not in this series. He eclipsed Jack, made so much more of an impact, it would be almost an insult to try and have someone else fill those shoes.

I don't know what else to say about this movie, except like Michael, I can't stop thinking about it.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1448128' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.29']I know I'm in the minority here, but this is why I think some sort of scenario like that would be perfect to introduce Dick Grayson into...talk about complications...[/quote]
Not totally. I don't mind Dick Grayson. I just don't enjoy the Schumacher version of Robin. But I do think that Nolan has gone on record as saying he would not introduce Robin.

[quote]And wasn't Two Face responsible for the death of Dick's parents? I can't remember.[/quote]
If I recall, it was originally a Mafia Boss who was responsible. Although it may have been retconned.

[WarGalley]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1448128' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.29']And wasn't Two Face responsible for the death of Dick's parents? I can't remember.[/quote]

In Batman Forever (Val Kilmer version) that's how it happened. I can't remember the comic book origin story though.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mya Stone' post='1448129' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.31']I am going to add my two cents and say I personally think Two-Face is still alive. I also saw the mobster's fall as foreshadowing (at the time, I just cringed at the crunch of his ankles, but still) and I also agree that the coin being shown to fall heads up meant he was still alive.[/quote]

Bah, the coin falling face up was just another little bit like Batman turning his face over to show the good side. Dent would be remembered as the man not the monster.

[Mexal]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1447926' date='Jul 20 2008, 18.12']Also, who wants to speculate that Robin needs to make an appearance...?[/quote]

Bale says he doesn't want to do Batman if Robin is in it. So I doubt we'll see that in Nolan's series of Batmans.

I just saw it a second time. It's just as good. I was at the edge of my seat the entire time and I knew what was going to happen. I paid more attention to the little details of Ledger's performance and was wowed once again.

I love this movie.

[Mya Stone]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448149' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.50']Bah, the coin falling face up was just another little bit like Batman turning his face over to show the good side. Dent would be remembered as the man not the monster.[/quote]
So you honestly think a 3-4 story fall is enough to kill someone?

Considering that I'm going with "adrenaline" as my reasoning to why he was up and walking about 3 days after half his face was burned off without painkillers, I'll say nay to the fall killing him. :P

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='WarGalley' post='1448135' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.38']In Batman Forever (Val Kilmer version) that's how it happened. I can't remember the comic book origin story though.[/quote]

Bah. I blame TNT for showing all of those damn Shumacker movies Friday night and putting the image in my head...it was mobsters in contiuity.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Mya Stone' post='1448154' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.58']So you honestly think a 3-4 story fall is enough to kill someone?[/quote]

Yes.

That's like 30 feet.

(Now, whether or not that is enough to kill someone in the Batman Universe, is another question. Maronni fell from about that high, if I recall. Although he landed on his legs, which would make a difference)

[WarGalley]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1448156' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.00']Yes.

That's like 30 feet.[/quote]

It is amusing that Rachel and Batman survive their fall as well as Maroni. I wonder if they did his death scene that way on purpose.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Mexal' post='1448151' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.56']Bale says he doesn't want to do Batman if Robin is in it. So I doubt we'll see that in Nolan's series of Batmans.[/quote]

A cut of the back end from this franchise would change anyone's mind, eh? :P

Seriously though, I'm sure that if a story idea was presented, or came to, him, Nolan would do it.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1448134' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.36']Not totally. I don't mind Dick Grayson. I just don't enjoy the Schumacher version of Robin. But I do think that Nolan has gone on record as saying he would not introduce Robin.

If I recall, it was originally a Mafia Boss who was responsible. Although it may have been retconned.[/quote]I would not mind Dick Grayson being introduced so long as Robin would not be introduced until at least two movie afterwards. That said, I think that this Batman is supposed to be the younger Batman and not the established Batman who takes up Dick Grayson.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='WarGalley' post='1448160' date='Jul 20 2008, 22.02']It is amusing that Rachel and Batman survive their fall as well as Maroni. I wonder if they did his death scene that way on purpose.[/quote]

Falls involving Batman don't count. He's fuckin' Batman.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Mya Stone' post='1448154' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.58']So you honestly think a 3-4 story fall is enough to kill someone?

Considering that I'm going with "adrenaline" as my reasoning to why he was up and walking about 3 days after half his face was burned off without painkillers, I'll say nay to the fall killing him. :P[/quote]

I'd say "YEah" because:

a) he looked dead and they talked about him like he was dead. You don't think Batman, who turned his face over, wouldn't have immediately gone "Holy Shit, he's alive!" if he had been?

B) the novelisation says he's dead

c) his story arc is done and it would cheapen the end of the movie to bring him back

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I think that he was too short-lived of a villain to not be used again.

[potsherds]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 21 2008, 01.58']Catwomen COULD work, but she's not really all that interesting.[/quote]
I disagree, I think she's quite interesting. I just don't think she works in Nolan's films.