The Dark Knight part deux

[Caligula_K]

The Superman idea doesn't work because its completely out of whack with the realism of Nolan's universe- I also think that connecting Batman to other DC heroes kind of cheapens the movies, but eh, I was never a big fan of the huge DC crossovers, except for when they were done really well, like in Kingdom Come.

But it would be really really really hilarious if in the next movie, Robin says something smartallecky and then Batman's like "This is why Superman works alone!" I hope Nolan credits me for that zinger when he puts it in the next one.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1447002' date='Jul 19 2008, 11.22']See, my issue wasn't so much the Dent character, it was the actor. Aaron Eckhart does nothing for me and I really had to focus myself when he was on the screen. Now, mind you, it was easier to accept him as Dent than it was Tommy Lee Jones, but at the same time, I would have liked to have seen another actor play the role. That's just me though.[/quote]

I was going to say what Mexal said.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1447016' date='Jul 19 2008, 11.44']I love Eckhart. Ever since seeing Thank You For Smoking, he's been one of those actors that I enjoy watching. I think he was perfect for Dent :)[/quote]

Eckhart has just [i]loads[/i] of charisma in that movie, but for some reason he and Nolan must've decided that the character should be played as a really square, kinda plain guy. I don't know - I would have preferred a little more spark, but maybe they thought that would make him seem less inherently trustworthy, or make his fall less believable in more dramatic.

I would have preferred a little more, but I wouldn't say it would affect the number of starts I'd give the film or anything.

But I do just [i]hate[/i] the Batman voice. It's just to "Raaar!!!! I'm Baaatmaaan!!!" I'd take a quarter of a point away for that, I think. But that's it. And then I'm inclined to give it back for Ledger's performance anyway, which is A++.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Commodore' post='1448003' date='Jul 20 2008, 18.46']BTW I loved William Fitchner's small part for some reason, he was a badass with that shotgun.[/quote]

You know, that was such long movie that covered so much ground, I completely forgot about that part. But yeah, from start (that hilarious bank robbery) to finish, completely badass. By the time you finish with the film the Asian money-launderer subplot feels like 2-3 films ago.

I also really love how this film is not one self-contained story. What I mean to say, and as others have alluded to, it actually asks the question 'What would happen to a desperate city if some masked vigilante started fighting crime', and tries to answer it. The city no longer cowers in fear against the normal criminals and start to stand up for themselves. The criminals themselves escalate the game by turning to something newer and scarier. Maybe you're satisfied with the answers, maybe you're not, but I don't recall another comic book film actually trying to deal with this. (very similar to the question Moore asked in The Watchmen, what would a world with real superheroes actually look like?)

They really do try to give us a plausible cause and effect for every situation. Batman both inspires and allows for a Dent and a Joker. The order v. Chaos themes, those who are supposed to die with a shrug and those who aren't. The price some are willing to pay to maintain order and security and the people who make such decisions on security/liberty for the masses.

Fuck me if this isn't one of the best films of the last several years.


I second the perm-ban on anyone who didn't like it.

[Humble Asskicker]

I liked the movie so much I went to see it a second time, which is very rare for me. The theater was packed today too, which is significant in this town, where here I dwell in the land of Mormons.

The film is slightly less emotionally powerful in some scenes because I knew what was going to happen, but it only gained in its power as film, because a second viewing allowed me to appreciate some of the nuances that I missed the first time, and give further dwelling on the layers present in this film. This is a complex film, artful film. It's hard enough to make a great action film or a great dramatic character piece, but to succeed on both fronts is incredible. This is Die Hard and Serpico rolled into one. Or even more accurate this is the realism of Heat with a superhero suddenly introduced (they even have a character from heat playing the overseer of the bank that is heisted early in the movie).

I checked out imdb and just for fun clicked to see the reviewers who hated this film. Imdb defines this as "people who rated the movie less than 9.6." The Dark Knight scores so remarkably well on so many fronts that I'm not surprised at its broad appeal.

This allows for a prognostication which I think is fairly dependable: the next Academy Awards is going to be a huge travesty as The Dark Knight gets completely snubbed.

Foreshadowing that I missed the first time: Dent remarking that Alfred knew Rachel her whole life and Aflred responds "Not yet." Also, the signals as to which cop is a traitor is very obvious on the second viewing. Which is great because I doubt many people guessed it on their first viewing, but it makes complete sense when you consider it.

[quote]So you're telling us that some guy with half his face burned off, and is assumed to be dead (we're even told he's dead by an authority figure!) isn't actually dead, only figuratively? And he's being hidden away somewhere?

Nobody on this board is gonna buy it.
[quote]
You don't read comic books do you?[/quote][/quote]

I think it would be very lame to bring Harvey back because for one, it would be a comic book move, and while these movies are based on a comic book character and his comic book gadgets, in most details it wisely avoids in comic book gimmicks. Particularly dumb one's, like the endlessly resurrected villains and superheroes (I don't think Gordon is applicable in this case: his resurrection was well-done and doesn't ring nearly as hollow as a revived Two-Face would). Aside from which, I don't know about the comics but in my mind Dent/Two-Face has in the span of The Dark Knight fully represented his characters purpose and its themes. Adding more would be gratuitous.

Also, unless Nolan entirely reinvents Batman, as he did with Begins and TDK, I don't see how another sequel would be a good idea. I could see how casting in the more villainous role, what with him being hunted, and his slow decent even further, would appeal to me personally, but it would probably have to be more than that. From the comic-fans expectations (and certainly DC as well) Batman [i]has[/i] to be good, so he's limited. And I think this is a dark a film as popular audiences will tolerate. And that theme was already done with Two-Face.

So unless Nolan comes up with something really special, I hope he'll just drop Batman, let the studio do their thing and have the third one suck but make 300 million dollars and let that be that. I can write off the third one and cherish the awesomeness of Begins and TDK.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I think that the Penguin as an arms dealer would be a good move. But it would be nice to see more of a psychological thriller with either the Riddler, the Mad Hatter, or maybe even a return of the Scarecrow.

[Crazydog7]

Well when taking into account the foreign box office it has already made back its production budget so part three will be coming down the pike i'm just sorry that Ledger will not be around for part three it is a truly awesome performance.

Was the Scarecrow just in that beginning scene in the parking garage?

[Humble Asskicker]

[quote]I think that the Penguin as an arms dealer would be a good move. But it would be nice to see more of a psychological thriller with either the Riddler, the Mad Hatter, or maybe even a return of the Scarecrow.[/quote]

I think you're on to something. Maybe have Catwoman as a down-on-her-luck meth-addict whose drug-induced delusions give her an obsession with the supernatural nature of cats and the prowess and courage for chaotic superhero antics.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1447961' date='Jul 20 2008, 17.43']I like the idea of Batman being the villian. That would be a great way to take the next film, in my opinion. But I don't want to see Superman. No way. I like the idea of some sort of Bounty Hunter, ala The Punisher. I can't think of a DC-character that would fit, but maybe someone related to one of Batman's 'victims'. Make him a representative of the Joker's philosophy, of small people trying to control the world.[/quote]

Wait wait wait.

Let's all agree here on two things:

1. If we were envisioning the scenario of Batman being hunted as a "villian" in a comic book form, the best way to write the story is to have Superman chasing him. They're two sides of the same coin. It makes for some excellent writing.

2. In a movie set within the universe Nolan's created for these movies, Superman has no place. Heroes are human, not super-human.

[quote]Eckhart has just loads of charisma in that movie, but for some reason he and Nolan must've decided that the character should be played as a really square, kinda plain guy. I don't know - I would have preferred a little more spark, but maybe they thought that would make him seem less inherently trustworthy, or make his fall less believable in more dramatic.[/quote]

You can see they were taking some of the elements of Jeff Loeb and Tim Sale's Long Halloween with some of Eckhart's performance. I just didn't think they took it far enough. Harvey Dent is white knight to the public, but it isn't the case behind the scenes. I don't think they took this enough, at least, I never really bought fully that he was the great hope people said he was. I would have liked to have seen more of the white knight in the public. Short of Wayne and Rachel saying he was...

But this is a minor glitch for me. It was still a very kick ass movie.

:)

[Humble Asskicker]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1448057' date='Jul 20 2008, 18.22']Wait wait wait.

Let's all agree here on two things:

1. If we were envisioning the scenario of Batman being hunted as a "villian" in a comic book form, the best way to write the story is to have Superman chasing him. They're two sides of the same coin. It makes for some excellent writing.

2. In a movie set within the universe Nolan's created for these movies, Superman has no place. Heroes are human, not super-human.

:)[/quote]

I hate throwing around my movie ideas, but just to give contrast to your statement, I think there could be potential in the unfolding of Wayne's world as he slowly is uncovered and defeated by the police and then sent to prison for trying to "save" Gotham. It's never going to happen, because you'll have fans howling bloody murder, but I think it would far exceed any invincible dude in blue tights being tossed into the story.

A lot can be done, but I'm not sure how any of that would beat or add substance to what's already been said in Batman's world. I'm rather curious what Nolan's answer will be.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1448057' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.22']1. If we were envisioning the scenario of Batman being hunted as a "villian" in a comic book form, the best way to write the story is to have Superman chasing him. They're two sides of the same coin. It makes for some excellent writing.[/quote]
Nah, I don't agree. But I never really liked Superman, so I am biased.

[quote]2. In a movie set within the universe Nolan's created for these movies, Superman has no place. Heroes are human, not super-human.[/quote]

This I agree with.



But the third movie already has an interesting premise. Gordon is now the Commissioner and is forced to hunt down a man he admires. There is a lot of potential there already, without even adding anything else.

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='Cat of Oop North' post='1448074' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.44']But the third movie already has an interesting premise. Gordon is now the Commissioner and is forced to hunt down a man he admires. There is a lot of potential there already, without even adding anything else.[/quote]

I agree. Add in the Riddler (one of the few remaining villains who I think can fit into these movies) and Nolan and I think you can have a movie that equals Begins, if not The Dark Knight. I think it would also be very interesting if Batman's identity becomes revealed to Gotham, which is a perfect way to use the Riddler.

Oh, and I checked out the movie novelization while I was at work today. It was appallingly written, but it does make it pretty clear that Dent is dead- and considering that he doesn't breath in the last scene, it seems pretty reasonable to accept that. The coin landing on its clean side can be taken to mean that the good side of Harvey will be whats remembered in the end due to Batman's sacrifice, rather than an indication that he's alive.

Edit: Of course, I could be wrong.

[Shryke]

When looking at who would be the next villain, the most important question is WHY? What's that point of said character? What more would they allow the movie to say?

The Joker does this really well. WTF would the Penguin do that would be interesting? It'd just be "Oh wow, another villain, /yawn". This applies to many of them.

Catwomen COULD work, but she's not really all that interesting. Maybe have her as a burglar dressed in black. Gets mistaken for Batman. I don't know, it doesn't work on it's own.

The Riddler might work well, if you base him more off the animated series. As sort of a contrast to the Joker. He's not crazy, he's in control. He's not out to just cause Chaos, he's got a plan. Sort of "Batman trying to stop a criminal mastermind while being hunted by the cops". I don't know, doesn't really say anything interesting either.


BTW, the script writers say: [url="http://www.hecklerspray.com/batman-3-catwoman-the-penguin-to-remain-unemployed/200815249.php"]"No Penguin or Catwoman"[/url]
[quote]“In the first movie we use Ra’s Al Ghul and The Scarecrow, who had not been in the movies before, and had not been in the sixties TV show before. And there are dozens if not hundreds of other characters that fit that bill. Everyone says its gotta be The Penguin or Catwoman… well I completely disagree.”[/quote]

[delete this account pls]

Well, for me, you don't have to make the next villain a 'villain'. Batman's wanted by the cops, so you take one of Batman's many rogues, and rework them. Turn them into an agent/bounty hunter hired to go after Batman. Catwoman, and a whole bunch of others, could definitely work in that scenario.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.58']When looking at who would be the next villain, the most important question is WHY? What's that point of said character? What more would they allow the movie to say?

The Joker does this really well. WTF would the Penguin do that would be interesting? It'd just be "Oh wow, another villain, /yawn". This applies to many of them.

Catwomen COULD work, but she's not really all that interesting. Maybe have her as a burglar dressed in black. Gets mistaken for Batman. I don't know, it doesn't work on it's own.

The Riddler might work well, if you base him more off the animated series. As sort of a contrast to the Joker. He's not crazy, he's in control. He's not out to just cause Chaos, he's got a plan. Sort of "Batman trying to stop a criminal mastermind while being hunted by the cops". I don't know, doesn't really say anything interesting either.[/quote]


Working with the idea that Gordon has to deal with the fact that he's responsible for tracking the Batman when he knows there isn't anything wrong, then in comes Riddler to "solve" the question. Though it's kinda been done, though in the Nolans' hands it might be a fresh twist...

Catwoman doens't work for me simply because she's not established yet. Selina Kyle was part of Bruce Wayne's sphere, at least in some respects.

[Relic]

Jax - cannot at all agree about the Superman thing.

If seems very clear to me that they are setting up a The Dark Knight Returns inspired story in which Batman comes back from being gone for awhile (a long while in the comic but im sure they'd shorten the time line as to have Bale play him again) and squares with Two Face, gangs, the Gotham Police Department , and The Joker. He IS being hunted in that story, and while he does have to fight superman that confrontation occurs towards the end of the storyline and can easily be omitted.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 19.58']When looking at who would be the next villain, the most important question is WHY? What's that point of said character? What more would they allow the movie to say?

The Joker does this really well. WTF would the Penguin do that would be interesting? It'd just be "Oh wow, another villain, /yawn". This applies to many of them.

Catwomen COULD work, but she's not really all that interesting. Maybe have her as a burglar dressed in black. Gets mistaken for Batman. I don't know, it doesn't work on it's own.

The Riddler might work well, if you base him more off the animated series. As sort of a contrast to the Joker. He's not crazy, he's in control. He's not out to just cause Chaos, he's got a plan. Sort of "Batman trying to stop a criminal mastermind while being hunted by the cops". I don't know, doesn't really say anything interesting either.


BTW, the script writers say: [url="http://www.hecklerspray.com/batman-3-catwoman-the-penguin-to-remain-unemployed/200815249.php"]"No Penguin or Catwoman"[/url][/quote]
Thematically, it is tough to say where they can go. Batman Begins had an element of TOO much order, law and punishment. The Dark Knight is about Chaos and Fear and how having some kind of rules, having something to hold onto is important.

Batman on the wrongside of the law is interesting, because it will put his rules in conflict with societal rules, rules that he values, a villain that could manipulate this could explore the theme well.

[RedEyedGhost]

I think E. Nigma would work, but I cannot get the truly awful, utterly appalling image of Jim Carey in green tights out of my head when I think of the Riddler. :ack:

I don't get the Aaron Eckhart dislike either. I thought he was phenomenal, and I can't really think of anything I did not like him in either. He was wonderful in [i]Thank You for Smoking[/i] and I watched [i]Meet Bill[/i] on Thursday and I was very shocked at how much I like him in that (because the premise of the movie wasn't that inspired). :dunno: But everybody's opinions vary, and I can't fault anybody for not liking him.

I don't really care what the movie novelization says, only what was shown on screen. There was nothing onscreen that made me believe Two-Face is dead. Harvey Dent [i]is[/i] dead - he died in the explosion - but there's nothing there to convince me that Two-Face is dead.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='Relic' post='1448093' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.09']Jax - cannot at all agree about the Superman thing.

If seems very clear to me that they are setting up a The Dark Knight Returns inspired story in which Batman comes back from being gone for awhile (a long while in the comic but im sure they'd shorten the time line as to have Bale play him again) and squares with Two Face, gangs, the Gotham Police Department , and The Joker. He IS being hunted in that story, and while he does have to fight superman that confrontation occurs towards the end of the storyline and can easily be omitted.[/quote]

Relic - I'm not trying to argue one way or another that Superman belongs or is needed in a future movie. I'm simply saying that the best stories pitting philosophies of what constitutes justice usually have Batman facing off against Superman.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1448082' date='Jul 20 2008, 20.58']When looking at who would be the next villain, the most important question is WHY? What's that point of said character? What more would they allow the movie to say?[/quote]
[quote]Well, for me, you don't have to make the next villain a 'villain'. Batman's wanted by the cops, so you take one of Batman's many rogues, and rework them. Turn them into an agent/bounty hunter hired to go after Batman. Catwoman, and a whole bunch of others, could definitely work in that scenario.[/quote]

I want to see a focus on revenge. The next movie needs to be seriously brutal, if it wants to stand up against [i]The Dark Knight[/i]. This one already touched on some issues that I like seeing in Batman stories, with Batman not taking his chances to kill the Joker. I think it would be cool to see them play with that theme even more. He's a vigilante, but he does have values, and watching him struggle with revenge / justice is always entertaining.

As for an antagonist, there is already an obvious setup for one. Batman is being blamed for killing 5 (?) people. Two of them cops. There should be a few people who don't take kindly to that. So there are already a few 'regular' Joes who would have reason to try and take down the Bat. Perhaps someone like The Reaper could be introduced, who was a vigilante like Batman but was not afraid to take it to the next level by killing his targets. You would have someone hunting the 'evil' Batman', who is arguably even worse then the 'enemy'. Cue lots of drama with Gordon, who wants to protect Batman but also needs to appear like he is tracking him down. Cue more drama as criminals are killed, and no one really cares. Since it's part of the 'order of things' (ala Joker's speech). You could also add in a bunch of 'ends justify the means' sort of stuff, for more philosophy and brooding.

[Relic]

[quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1448109' date='Jul 20 2008, 21.18']Relic - I'm not trying to argue one way or another that Superman belongs or is needed in a future movie. I'm simply saying that the best stories pitting philosophies of what constitutes justice usually have Batman facing off against Superman.[/quote]


ah ok. gotcha