Mackaxx Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Fatuous' post='1572870' date='Oct 31 2008, 11.02']I don't know what to say about such a statement. They're not real? They're a stepping stone to questioning the point of everything and anything? They're entertainment? They're not written for middle aged Atheists?[/quote] Elves fairys and hobbits are not the only thing imagination is used for. Again, I'm not sure how anyone can get from these few short sentences that the idea being pushed is the abandonment of all fiction from a childs life. Merely that it gets presented alongside some stuff involving critical thinking. I don't think anyone could deny that the kiddies simply are not taught to think for themselves all that much as school, this is what is being gotten at. [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1572866' date='Oct 31 2008, 10.53']Mackxx, Why waste time studying the .00001 percent of people who read fairy tales and believe them to be true if you don't hypothsise fantasy stories and fairy tales have a deliterious affect on rationality? Should he study fiction readers as well so he can make a compairison while using strict readers of non-fiction as a control group?[/quote] Most all kids get read fairy tales, I'm not sure how many are taught actively to believe they are true. They certainly get that crap in a steiner school though. I think it may be more than 0.0001% though, especially when Santa and the Easter Bunny get in on the mix. I haven't thought at all about what should or shouldn't be studies, nor how you would design it. In fact I wouldn't even venture to give my amateur opinion as to the hows and how to. If it is found to be conclusively a bad thing then it will be quite the conundrum for the human race, we do love our fiction. I don't think the study would inherently have no merit and be useless. Just like most science it would contribute in a small way to our understanding of the whole. This is of course of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='snake' post='1572824' date='Oct 30 2008, 18.03']For the love of fuck O-i-L. This study would be about as useful as tits on a bull. Dawkins needs to put his self-proclaimed genius to some good use but it would seem all the education in the world does not make up for a lack of common sense.[/quote] hey! Bulls have tits for a [url="http://everything2.com/e2node/Why%2520males%2520have%2520nipples"]reason[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Fatuous' post='1572870' date='Oct 30 2008, 20.02']"Prof Hawkins said: "The book I write next year will be a children's book on how to think about the world, science thinking contrasted with mythical thinking.[/quote] Somehow I don't think it'll be a best seller. ;) Actually, I'm more concerned about the thousands of young adults who believe in vampires. Perhaps he should study that phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Other-in-law' post='1572909' date='Oct 30 2008, 21.14']hey! Bulls have tits for a [url="http://everything2.com/e2node/Why%2520males%2520have%2520nipples"]reason[/url].[/quote] :lol: Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isis Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I read this week that Oxford just gave his chair (i.e. one which was created especially for him) to some mathmatician. He must be making enough income from his books etc. so that he doesn't even need to hold an academic post anymore. Nice. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. That's what science is. But I do get the sneaking feeling that he sometimes says stuff like this just to get people going. It's working out pretty well, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Isis, Well, he's certianly gotten us talking. My problem is saying things to get people going is underhanded and rather trollish. I know too many people in the sciences who enjoy fantasy literature for me to believe there is much chance this hypothesis will be supported by data. In fact, I'd be willing to bet people who enjoy fantasy literature are more likely to show an interest in science than those who do not develop a taste for fantasy. Finally, I think his postulation is a false dichotomy as an interest in the "unreal" does not then necessarily preclude interest in rational inqury into the "real." Snake, That's really interseting. I've always wondered why males have nipples. It's because we all start out as female. Hmmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hahaha... Ah, Dick. [i]edit: hadn't seen this thread until this morning[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Isis' post='1573118' date='Oct 31 2008, 12.10']I read this week that Oxford just gave his chair (i.e. one which was created especially for him) to some mathmatician. He must be making enough income from his books etc. so that he doesn't even need to hold an academic post anymore. Nice.[/quote] Man, the hyperbole on this thread is really getting out of hand. Dawkins has held the Charles Simonyi chair for the public understanding of science. It was funded by computer scientist, multi-millionaire, and philanthropist Charles Simonyi, one of the founders of Microsoft, in 1995. (CS made headlines as a space tourist a few years back.) Dawkins was the first person to hold that position, and retired from it this year, age 69. There is nothing unusual about it; I’m not sure if he were even [i]allowed[/i] to keep it for longer. (You can debate if CS had RD [i]in mind[/i] when he created the position. But it is not tied to him. But here’s RD’s page about the position, which quotes CS’s thoughts about the appointment process [url="http://richarddawkins.net/article,2246,Charles-Simonyi-Professorship-in-the-Public-Understanding-of-Science,Richard-Dawkins"]http://richarddawkins.net/article,2246,Cha...Richard-Dawkins[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The reason studies like this one (if it ever happens) are interesting, is that answers might prove to be completely the opposite of what is expected. Children who read a lot of fantasy might end up being significantly more likely to become agnostic or atheist than those who don't, for all we know. It could be that the part of human nature that hungers for subernaturalism is effectively sated and neutralised by a diet of explicit [i]entertainment[/i], rather than 'take seriously, but don't be so rude as to actually question' religion. In any event, C.S.Lewis and Pullman show that silly fantasy with talking lions and bears can be used to promote completely opposite messages, so the medium itself is flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1573129' date='Oct 31 2008, 07.31']My problem is saying things to get people going is underhanded and rather trollish.[/quote] My irony meter just broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Thread about this at [url="http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61769&hilit=richard"]http://richarddawkins.net/[/url]. RD participates [quote]I never brought up the subject of Harry Potter. Indeed, when the interviewer mentioned Harry Potter, I explicitly said that I was not talking about Harry Potter because I have never read him. But the Telegraph report of my interview began with these words: "Harry Potter has become the latest target for Professor Richard Dawkins" and one of the other reports said I was planning to "take on" Harry Potter. Total lies, as usual, but it is easy to see where you got the idea that I brought up the subject of Harry Potter.[/quote] I’d really withhold comments on RD’s intent with this until we actually have a book in our hands. I do understand that it makes good newspaper copy to twist his intentions as much as possible so that it appears as if “OMG Dawkins burglared GRRM’s home to protect the childrenâ€. But based on all the RD books I’ve read, I am optimistic about this book. I assume he wants to write “Unweaving the rainbowâ€, but for children. A book that actually inspires passion and inquisitiveness for [i]reality[/i]. If he can pull that off, great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Xray, [quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1573755' date='Oct 31 2008, 17.13']My irony meter just broke.[/quote] A fair comment. Dang it! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1573786' date='Oct 31 2008, 17.41']Xray, A fair comment. Dang it! :P[/quote] :P :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 "Busted" would have been a better way to put it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I'm sure if/when Dawkins reads Harry Potter, he'd find that the pro-science/intellectualism themes are fairly transparent, at least as much as the anti-religion ones were in His Dark Materials. I dunno, at least they were to me. Yeah, it's fantasy, but it seemed to be at least once per book that Hermione saved the day by doing some library research, and then they'd sit around practicing for a bit until the spells worked. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 [url="http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj88/newsinger.htm"]here's[/url] an old but great china mieville interview about this and related subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 His bit on Lord of the Rings...ahhh, somethings never change. The sky is still blue, water is still wet and China Mieville is still a pompous little jackass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanna vander Poele Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Every time a fantasy author disses Tolkien I feel sad inside :( I don't know why, the old don is my homeboy, and I will never forget, how at eleven years old and having not read much fantasy out of HP,[i] Lord of the Rings[/i] just took my breath away and never gave it back. Ack :cry: What is this salty discharge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Don't feel bad. Mieville's so stuck inside his own ego he's incapable of viewing anything outside the tiny scope of his beliefs. If it doesn't fit, he forces them to either conform or he feels threatened by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 heh. with regard to this thread, the tolkien stuff is actually the least relevant part of the interview. [i]outside the tiny scope [/i] a phrase of universal applicability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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