The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Maltaran]

I wonder if this might be a case of belief shaping reality - the people have been taught and believed for so long that sorcerers are damned, and the 5000 years of near-universal belief has made it so in reality.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yes, I also suspect Outside is conforming to human preconceptions. Anyway, these are first thoughts that occur to me:

1. Anyone else gets Napoleon's Great Army vibe reading about Great Ordeal? This thing can't end well. It looks like Kellhus made serious blunder.
2. Traveller from the prologue logically should be agent of Consult - I don't see Kellhus helping Achamian to unmask him, and Dunyain don't have presence in the world - as fae as we know, that is.
3. Why Mimara thinks of herself as Anasurimbor? Is it only because she considers Kellhus her adoptive father, or did I miss something?
4. It looks like most Kellhus children are damaged in some way. After prologue I thought it was because Dunyain are inbred, but it looks like they are genetically incompatible with unmodified humans - on the verge of becoming different species, as it is.
5. If Celmomas created Ishual, how come it was Dunyain who inherited it? This is one mystery I am sure will be explained at some point, though.
6. And who is the purported author of What Has Gone Before section? This isn't summary written by omniscient narrator, like in previous books, since it contains opinions and value judgments. Should we take them at face value - that is, is Kellhus truly mad, since this summary states so?

On the whole, I must say I liked it a lot. True, first part is rather slow, but we learned to expect it in setup novels. Kelmomas is great character, seriously fucked up in the best Bakker tradition, and the whole Moria sequence was a lot of fun, although I must admit I did have severa WTF moments reading it.


EDIT: Map in Canadian edition sucks donkey cock. Now I regret I didn't buy British version.

[Caligula_K]

Any ideas for who exactly the voice in Kelmonas' head is? I thought that the book seemed to suggest that the voice is the non-idiot part of his brother who he killed (whose name I forget right now) but is it also possible that the voice is an agent of the consult?

[polishgenius]

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1661191' date='Jan 24 2009, 23.06']5. If Celmomas created Ishual, how come it was Dunyain who inherited it? This is one mystery I am sure will be explained at some point, though.[/quote]


That was pretty much the very first thing we learned in the series - remember the prologue to the Darkness that Comes Before? Disease wiped out the inhabitants, then the Dunyain arrived and settled there.

Also, the map in the English edition is also pretty bad.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Brahm_K' post='1661242' date='Jan 25 2009, 00.15']Any ideas for who exactly the voice in Kelmonas' head is? I thought that the book seemed to suggest that the voice is the non-idiot part of his brother who he killed (whose name I forget right now) but is it also possible that the voice is an agent of the consult?[/quote]

I'm also not sure about this - The Voice definitely said "Why didn't you kill me sooner" right after he did it. Of course if Kelmo really is the WLW then it could also be one of the Gods.

I can't believe i was stupid enough to think that the traveller was Akka's slave - i just went and read the prologue again and i agree that it can only really be the consult.

Which reminds me - anyone else find it weird that there aren't any more Consult. I would have thought that if you where guaranteed to be damned once you died you would do everything in your power to stop that from happening. Miamara could potentially be the consults greatest weapon.

The most interesting thing for me though was the Nonmen's experimentation/torture on the Eanmwa (spelling?) - what on earth where they doing to them for the last thousand years ? I think its very possible that the Nonmen created Man the same way the Inchoroi created the Sranc - which is why people keep comparing the two.

Overall i enjoyed it a lot. Bakker has definitely toned down on his wankery though its definitely still there and its more annoyingly apparent in Mimara's POV's. A really promising start IMO.

I would love to see more on Kellhus' other children - especially the Moehungus.

[JGP]

Why bother adding such details as the young man the matron bestrode as having been a young husband and new father-- I'm confounded how everyone keeps speculating on Kelmomas being the WLW. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Twenty years since the end of TTT, I can't imagine the Dunyain not having grown curious about their prodigy, but Kosoter did acknowledge the mysterious figure from prologue when the stranger said they found [i]everybody[/i] [paraphrasing] So I'm thinking an imperial agent perhaps, one of Athjeari's [? no, the other guy, can’t remember his name]

Figured Kelmomas 'voice' to be Ajokli. The boy's a thief of epic proportions, completely uninterested in coin.

[kuenjato]

Why is the map bad? Was it printed poorly?

(ducks out before reading any serious spoilers)

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='polishgenius' post='1661298' date='Jan 25 2009, 02.25']That was pretty much the very first thing we learned in the series - remember the prologue to the Darkness that Comes Before? Disease wiped out the inhabitants, then the Dunyain arrived and settled there.[/quote]

Argh, I forgot this. Thanks for reminding.





[quote name='kuenjato' post='1661446' date='Jan 25 2009, 04.23']Why is the map bad? Was it printed poorly?

(ducks out before reading any serious spoilers)[/quote]

It is poorly printed and has very little details.

[Chirios]

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1661191' date='Jan 24 2009, 23.06']5. If Celmomas created Ishual, how come it was Dunyain who inherited it? This is one mystery I am sure will be explained at some point, though.
6. And who is the purported author of What Has Gone Before section? This isn't summary written by omniscient narrator, like in previous books, since it contains opinions and value judgments. Should we take them at face value - that is, is Kellhus truly mad, since this summary states so?[/quote]

5. Don't you remember the prologue in DTCB? The Anasurimbur heir was already there, when a wandering group of Dunyain happened to come across Ishual. Probably the Whore again.

[Jon AS]

Whew, just finished the book. Took me unreasonably long, because so much of it is exposition (some repeated from the appendices of [i]The Thousandfold Thought[/i] even) with very little payoff, but then Achiaman finally got to [s]Khazad-Dûm[/s] Cil-Aujas and I could not put the book down anymore. Bakker's Tolkien hommages have always been interesting (and twisted) and this one was the best so far. Cleric's place in the hall of crazily-over-the-top-powerful fantasy characters is already secure, though I was not expecting him to show up at the end, thinking he was destined to mysteriously arrive out of the blue to save the day in the second book.

Questions that require answers:

-Who was the man who approaches Kosoter in the prologue? I don't think this can be deduced from the text, quite frustrating to have to wait for the next book to learn that.

-Are the Dûnyain not quite human anymore? All of Kellhus' kids not being quite sane I could understand, but the extreme physical mutations of the ones that didn't survive are very odd. Or maybe it's just Kellhus who is somehow different, being a prophecised saviour and all?

-Speaking of the little Anasûrimbors, why the hell do they seem to have inherited abilities that seemed to require years of training for the Dûnyain to master in the first trilogy?

-Whose voice does Kelmomas hear?

-Who is Cleric, really?

-What was up with all the women and children beneath the ice of the frozen lake at the end?

-Who is the White-Luck Warrior?

[Peadar]

Just finished and really enjoyed it. The Moria scene was brilliant, right down to the Bashrag/Balrog.

My only confusion (apart from the deliberate ones!) is, if Cleric is so unbelievably powerful, the Skineaters would never have had to draw their swords on a normal slog.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1661620' date='Jan 25 2009, 03.59']It is poorly printed and has very little details.[/quote]

It was also printed across two pages, meaning the middle of the map is in the spine .... which can be annoying.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Peadar' post='1661960' date='Jan 25 2009, 21.17']Just finished and really enjoyed it. The Moria scene was brilliant, right down to the Bashrag/Balrog.

My only confusion (apart from the deliberate ones!) is, if Cleric is so unbelievably powerful, the Skineaters would never have had to draw their swords on a normal slog.[/quote]


Well, that is why they were legendary band ;) I suppose he only used as much power, as he needed to. Norml slogs weren't likely to offer so great challenge.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Peadar']My only confusion (apart from the deliberate ones!) is, if Cleric is so unbelievably powerful, the Skineaters would never have had to draw their swords on a normal slog.[/quote]

Maybe it's more a question of motivation. He [i]is[/i] insane after all.

Regarding his identity, leafing through the glossary in [i]The Thousandfold Thought[/i], I've turned up three prominent Nonmen:

Cet'ingira/Mekeritrig would fit in some ways with the emphasis on "betrayal" by the king of Cil-Aujas, but considering that he is supposed to be a ranking member of the Consult that seems unlikely. This leaves Nin-Ciljiras "the last surviving Nonman King" and Nil'giccas, the king of Ishterebinth, who, despite what the entry for Nin-Ciljiras says, does not have a known date of death. Do we know anything else about these guys not noted in the glossary? And have I overlooked any other candidates? And, while I'm asking questions, what is the purpose of the apostrophe in Nonmen names?

ETA: The entry about the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars makes mention of several others, some of which are not explicitly said to be dead, amongst them Sin'niroiha who lead the retreat after the death of Cû'jara-Cinmoi and Nin'janjin, the original Nonman traitor.

[Mexal]

[quote name='Peadar' post='1661960' date='Jan 25 2009, 16.17']My only confusion (apart from the deliberate ones!) is, if Cleric is so unbelievably powerful, the Skineaters would never have had to draw their swords on a normal slog.[/quote]

That thought crossed my mind a lot as well. At first I thought maybe they had Chorae but then I figured if they did, and the Skin Eaters lived through the slog, they'd all have them as well. So I don't know.

The more I think about the kids inheriting the skills that Kellhus trained to obtain, the more it annoys me. It's too much of a cop out I think.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1661397' date='Jan 25 2009, 02.26']Why bother adding such details as the young man the matron bestrode as having been a young husband and new father-- I'm confounded how everyone keeps speculating on Kelmomas being the WLW. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Figured Kelmomas 'voice' to be Ajokli. The boy's a thief of epic proportions, completely uninterested in coin.[/quote]

Because the an ancient pockmarked old man wouldn't make much of a warrior now would he ?

Besides Kelmo is essentially doing everything he possibly can to help the revolution - the assasinations, driving a wedge between his mum and uncle - and he is being spured on by these voices. There is certainly something weird going on there.

Sorweel is the only other contender really, and a very likely one because he only came into play the same time the Matron had those visions.

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1661397' date='Jan 25 2009, 02.26']Twenty years since the end of TTT, I can't imagine the Dunyain not having grown curious about their prodigy, but Kosoter did acknowledge the mysterious figure from prologue when the stranger said they found [i]everybody[/i] [paraphrasing] So I'm thinking an imperial agent perhaps, one of Athjeari's [? no, the other guy, can’t remember his name][/quote]

I think the Dunyain make a point of forgetting about people who are corrupted by the outside world. Makes me worry for Achaiman actually.

Also i think there was mention of a bounty being on Ironsouls' head - also the fact that he seemed far too comfortable around the scalpers and he seemed to realise that something was strange about Cleric.


[quote name='Peadar' post='1661960' date='Jan 25 2009, 20.17']Just finished and really enjoyed it. The Moria scene was brilliant, right down to the Bashrag/Balrog.

My only confusion (apart from the deliberate ones!) is, if Cleric is so unbelievably powerful, the Skineaters would never have had to draw their swords on a normal slog.[/quote]

Only one Balrog though. I thought the fact that there where so many dangerous Bashrog was awesome.

As for Cleric - i guess the same can be said for any mage.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1662036' date='Jan 25 2009, 22.23']The more I think about the kids inheriting the skills that Kellhus trained to obtain, the more it annoys me. It's too much of a cop out I think.[/quote]

The description seems to be they see people the same way we can see through the faces of a child. Which is probably why Kellhus can see much further than any of them.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']Only one Balrog though. I thought the fact that there where so many dangerous Bashrog was awesome.[/quote]

I thought the Bashrag were the equivalent of trolls. The Balrog would be the king, or whatever it was that rose at the stair and was banished by Mimara.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Mexal' post='1662036' date='Jan 25 2009, 23.23']The more I think about the kids inheriting the skills that Kellhus trained to obtain, the more it annoys me. It's too much of a cop out I think.[/quote]


I have always assumed that Dunzain training was needed to master innate skills they possessed anyhow (but it is several years since I last read TDTCB, so I may be wrong). I also suppose that Kellhus did some training with his older kids (or at least had Maithanet school them in basics). Not Kelmomas, apparently, which may expailn why he is so screwed.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']The description seems to be they see people the same way we can see through the faces of a child. Which is probably why Kellhus can see much further than any of them.[/quote]

But the biggest differences between the cognitive abilities of children and adults is down to experience. That adults know more than children is because of things they have learned.

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace']I have always assumed that Dunzain training was needed to master innate skills they possessed anyhow (but it is several years since I last read TDTCB, so I may be wrong).[/quote]

I always had the exact opposite impression, that while the Dûnyain kept around only the most brilliant and physically capable children, these still had to undergo lengthy training. Remember the room with all the people chained up people who had their skin removed so that young Kellhus could learn how facial muscles work? Somehow I don't see Esmenet being okay with that kind of education, and if it had happened, that would be what she blamed most for her children's weirdness IMO.

As I said earlier, nothing in the information we have about the Dûnyain explains why Kellhus' offspring are mostly freakish mutants that kill their mothers during pregnancy.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1661620' date='Jan 25 2009, 08.59']It is poorly printed and has very little details.[/quote]

The Orbit version is much better than the ARC version which is almost illegible. The Orbit map also has a sidebar outlining the history of the Unification Wars, which I thought was quite neat.