A Memory of Light (Vols I & II & III) Thread Three: The Arguments Reborn

[Gormenghast]

[quote name='MaesterLuwin' post='1743518' date='Apr 3 2009, 17.07']God help us. If I recall, some studio picked up the rights soon after the first LotR movie proved to be a success.[/quote]
Good movies need good directors and vision.

LotR wasn't successful because it was fantasy, but because it was made by Peter Jackson.

WoT risk to be made like Eragon.

Some movies shouldn't be made if they are going to be awful.

[quote name='irriadin' post='1743477' date='Apr 3 2009, 16.51']Looking back at a post made by Daniel Abraham, I found an interesting bit of information...[/quote]
Link?

[irriadin]

[quote name='Gormenghast' post='1744180' date='Apr 3 2009, 19.01']Link?[/quote]

[url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=30792&st=40&p=1512558&#entry1512558"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry1512558[/url] at the bottom.

[Milk of the Poppy]

One thing that strikes me in the Sanderson explanation : one of the arguments he gives in the defense for the split is that publishing a novel this big just can't be done. Then later he says that he will be pushing Tor for an omnibus edition - in other words : it can be done. But only after having sold four books instead of one?

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1744204' date='Apr 4 2009, 00.38']One thing that strikes me in the Sanderson explanation : one of the arguments he gives in the defense for the split is that publishing a novel this big just can't be done. Then later he says that he will be pushing Tor for an omnibus edition - in other words : it can be done. But only after having sold four books instead of one?[/quote]
Guys - we've been talking over and over the length of ASOS and Atlas Shrugged - does anyone here know how long [i]LOTR [/i]is?

My deceased Folio LOTR and my current paperback LOTR are/were both three-volume sets packaged in a nifty cardboard box with only five faces. But there are one-volume LOTRs - I think some of them omit the appendices.

Thing is... an 800,000 word trade paperback [i]could [/i]be done if you bought a special binding line for the purpose (at a cost of God knows what that would have to be passed to Tor's customers at some point), but it would be very difficult to actually [i]read[/i] without the binding starting to give. A MMPB that length would be even more difficult to read and far more likely to split in two. An oversize hardback is a much better possibility, if you think about some of the law handbooks, encyclopaedias and pulpit-scale Bibles that are printed, and it would have more give for the reader than the paperback versions as well as being sturdy enough to last more than two days. But a set of all three books boxed together sounds even more promising. It might not be an "omnibus" as in one volume, but it'd be close.

[Milk of the Poppy]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1744209' date='Apr 4 2009, 01.50']Guys - we've been talking over and over the length of ASOS and Atlas Shrugged - does anyone here know how long [i]LOTR [/i]is?

My deceased Folio LOTR and my current paperback LOTR are/were both three-volume sets packaged in a nifty cardboard box with only five faces. But there are one-volume LOTRs - I think some of them omit the appendices.

Thing is... an 800,000 word trade paperback [i]could [/i]be done if you bought a special binding line for the purpose (at a cost of God knows what that would have to be passed to Tor's customers at some point), but it would be very difficult to actually [i]read[/i] without the binding starting to give. .[/quote]
I have a one-volume LOTR paperback with appendix. It's about 1500 pages and it reads fine. The print is small but not too small and the binding is still okay after two complete readings. So I think the "can't be done" thing is not true. It probably is true that it can't be done in a highly profitable way, but that's a whole different argument.

[Milk of the Poppy]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1744209' date='Apr 4 2009, 01.50']But a set of all three books boxed together sounds even more promising. It might not be an "omnibus" as in one volume, but it'd be close.[/quote]
Just for the record - I don't really care if they go for the 3-volume or 1-volume option, because I won't be buying it anyway. I would have preferred it if the series would have been left unfinished and they would have just published Jordan's remaining notes and his projected ending.

Likewise I enjoyed the History of Middle-Earth series more than the actual Silmarillion. But I'm well aware that I'm in a minority in this.

[Piper]

[quote name='Gormenghast' post='1744180' date='Apr 3 2009, 19.01']Good movies need good directors and vision.

LotR wasn't successful because it was fantasy, but because it was made by Peter Jackson.

WoT risk to be made like Eragon.

Some movies shouldn't be made if they are going to be awful.[/quote]

I once read an argument that says movies based on popular books (I think you can put in stuff like comic books or video games in here too) have a [b]worse [/b]chance of being good movies than ones that come from scratch. Adaptations of popular materials have a built in audience, which = built in profit. Making it a "good" movie sometimes costs more money, which, on the margins, won't be as productive as putting out something mediocre and hoping the fanboys (and fangirls) all go out and see it anyways.

I have no experience in the field, and have no idea if that's true. I'm sure someone who has (Brude, maybe) can explain if that's true or not. But it makes sense to me, layman that I am.

[Werthead]

The UK one-volume [i]Lord of the Rings[/i] editions tends to be trade paperback only, coming in at around 1,100 pages with all the appendices included. I belive word-count wise it clocks in at around 420,000 words, or not much longer than ASoS (take out the appendices, and I think ASoS is even longer than LotR).

[fionwe1987]

[quote name='wolverine' post='1743760' date='Apr 3 2009, 13.14']Someone in the other thread said they have reread the first 5 books about two dozen times. Assuming they are exaggerating a little that is about 20 reads of 5 500-800 page books. How is it still interesting to read it again, and again, and again,....

I ask, becuase I have not reread any and might want to refresh on the series. I have reread the endings, but is it enjoyable to reread a whole book when you know what will happen?[/quote]
Very much so in WoT's case because "what will happen next" is not always what drives the story along. WoT is hardly filled with cliffhangers, and so, the loss of dramatic tension in re-reads has been minimal for me.
What makes re-reading WoT a pleasure is the levels to which story lines end up interconnecting. Someone Mat comes accross in book 1 will end up being at least a minor player in someone elses storyline many books down the line. It makes the world seem to breathe and live.
I was just re-reading Mat's chapter in LoC where he is in Maerone, and I can'tt believe that I never noticed Graendal's presence in that story. Nor did I realize that we the the Sea Folk's entrance into Andor this early in the series. I also forgot that the White Lions fought with the Band there, and that was why Daved Hanlon went away to Andor, only to end up working for Elayne.
WoT grows on you, and I'm yet to find a chapter dull on a re-read.

[Sword of the Morning]

Let's approach this logically.

We know that at 425,000 words George RR Martin's A Storm of Swords was almost split into two volumes and in many foreign countries was in fact split. We also know that 425,000 words in terms of sheer feasibility approaches the maximum number of words for a mass market release of a book.

We are not talking about the Bible.

We are not talking about a phone book.

Nor are we talking about pseudo-philosophical books or the complete works of William Shakespeare or textbooks.

By THOSE standards, perhaps we could print the entire Wheel of Time at 4,000,000 plus words in one volume for an MSRP of 10,000 dollars. I can afford to buy that, how many of you will join me? Hands?

Ok . . . now in the REAL world:

That's the number we're looking at. Bear in mind that the LONGEST book in the Wheel of Time is The Shadow Rising clocking in at around 393,000 words or so which is a shade under 400,000. And I thought the font was kinda small and the margins really cramped and ugly on the hardback I have.

So . . . let's look at Brandon Sanderson for a second.

I'm not sure how many of you have actually taken the time to:

1. Read any of his books.

2. Speak to him at a book signing, via email, listen to interviews on podcasts.

3. Read the touching eulogy he wrote on Jordan. Read his blogs on getting the job, his re-read comments, his thoughts as he worked on A Memory of Light, etc.

or any combination of the above.

I'm also curious how many people are involved at all with the publishing industry? 4 of you? 2? 3?

How many of you are published authors?

How many of you work as professional editors for publishers?

6? 8? 3?

I'd like to see references and links if so.

Yet, EVERYBODY here is apparently an expert not only on Branden Sanderson's motivations as an author and a professional but also apparently has an intimate understanding of exactly what Tor is capable of, how much money is being made, what is motivating Harriet and Tom Doherty, etc.

There is a lot of projecting going on in some of the posts I am reading. Schemers naturally think everyone else is scheming. Paranoid and cynical people are incapable of seeing the world in any other light.

Look here, the math is simple:

Brandon Sanderson has been commissioned to finish A Memory of Light and because of both the career implications as well has his reverence and love for both the author and the material he accepted NO QUESTIONS ASKED. In fact, in a near fatal move of monumental stupidity, he instructed his agent to enter NO negotiations and to take the first offer Tor put on the table no questions asked.

Finishing A Memory of Light is a labor of love for him and as he is writing this novel, crafting this novel the weight of 20 years of fans' expectations are on hiim constantly. He's also not being paid MORE for any more writing he is doing.

When he says, it may take him 750,000 words to do the story justice, it is from the perspectrive of a professional writer with a tremendous amount of respect and knowledge of the source material. I trust him. And as I suspect no one posting on this thread has 1/10 the experience of Sanderson or published even one book on a New York Times Bestselle list, I trust his opinion more than yours.

Comments and posts that question his professinoalism, his honesty, his ability just reads silly to me.

Out of respect for Jordan, Sanderson is not going to simply haphazardly cut storylines, character arcs, etc out of the book. Also, he must adapt his style to Jordan's style. A Memory of Light can't read like Elantris or Mistwalker or Alcatraz. Some of you might have noticed that Wheel of Time tends to read long . . . with descriptions aplenty of many things from baths to braid tugging to Aes Sedai kneeling at Dumai's wells . . . Love it or hate it, you have to take the whole package and Sanderson needs to deliver a fair facsimile of it.

It is thus perfect and absolutely logical and feasible that having accepted a job without even knowing what he was in for and with the number of plots and subplots that it can EASILY take 750,000 words to write the conclusion WELL AND SUCCESSFULLY (i.e. in a way none of us would be able to do).

Now . . . we have problems. 750,000 words split into two volumes will give us 375,000 words each. 750,000 words is an estimate at what Brandon thinks will be the final tally at only the HALF WAY point. It could very well grow as he nears the finish line. Also notice that 750,000 words divided by 3 equals 250,000 words.

And yet, The Gathering Storm as it currently stands while it goes through the editing process stands at around 310,000 words.

What happened boys and girls?

Or do you guys even know where I got all these mysterious and wonderful facts from?

Am I making it up? No. I got it from somewhere. Maybe it would be best to find out where.

So how did 250,000 words turn into 310,000? Because in revising and rewriting to make a book that READS well and FLOWS right, Brandon took what Tor wanted (around 225,000) and added almost 100,000 words to it to make it as good as he could.

In other words, the length of this book can indeed grow and grow quickly as we move from draft to draft to finished product with revision after revision after revision.

And what happens for all those geniuses who think they know so much when we publish this thing in 2 volumes and then find out that the second volume has ballooned to 500,000 words? Because that can happen . . . easily.

Pretend we're publishing Atlas Shrugged or the Bible and just do it anyway? Force Brandon Sanderson to condense it to 425,000 words because he has no choice?

Whooooo, I sure am glad you aren't in charge of Jordan's legacy if that's the back-up plan.

In point of fact, once you get to understand the FACTS, you realize that the BEST course of action is what Sanderson outlined. And because in every single blog, email, podcast I've heard he has struck me as being an EXTRAORDINARILY intelligent, reasonable, and empathetic human being, I'm not surprised that he came to this conclusion:

Split into 3 books. Give himself 300,000 words a book to play with if needed. If not, fine and dandy. But if he needs it he HAS it. Publish it every year . . . much like the Lord of the Rings were released in consecutive years. No issues with length. No issues with binding. No issues with long waits for the fans. And he has time to relax a little, back off the breakneck pace that was threatening to burn him out, and write this thing out the way it deserves.

As an aside, how many people here work routinely 80-100 hour weeks? Because . . . I have. For as long as a month at a time. How many people have gone 36 hours without sleep? Cause I have. How many people went 6 hours of sleep in 3 days . . . Cause I have. And no I'm not a drug addict. Trust me . . . it's not fun. And if Sanderson is pulling 16 to 17 hour days to try to hit his self-imposed 400,000 words by December 2008 deadline then I certainly DON'T want him to continue at that pace for too long or we will have TWO dead authors who won't be finishing Wheel of Time to worry about.

Right now, I think there might be ONE asshole who would have the guts to actually look in Brandon Sanderson's eyes or Harriet's eyes or Tom Doherty's eyes and suggest that the main reason this is being done is for sheer profits and money.

If you think so, you are in sore need of both an education and some pratice at being a human being.

These are in general good people. Sanderson saw Jordan as a role model and a visionary. Tom Doherty knew him for decades and counted him a close friend. Harriet . . . what can you say about Harriet? He was the love of her life and her husband.

Before profits, before money, before any thought of trying to screw Wheel of Time fans, these people are thinking about Jim Oliver Rigney's spirit, his life work, his magnum opus, and his legacy.

And, as hard as the shamelessly cynical of you out there find it to believe and I know it is impossible for you to believe it, they are also thinking of the fans.

And the choice they made was to publish these books in 3 volumes released a year apart as the best way to bring his vision as completely and as honestly as possible to all of us the fans who've waited 20 years to read what happens.

The fact that this move is also not only economically feasible but in fact may be economically necessary in one of the worst global recessions in history and where the U.S. of A just lost 2 million jobs in 3 months is icing on the cake.

Yes . . . publishing one more book will make them some more money. This is a SIDE benefit and not the MAIN reason for doing this.

Money is not the primary motivating factor here. Making sure the story is done right is the motivating factor.

The argument that A Memory of Light can be split into 2 volumes easily and without risk is not a correct argument. There is tremendous risk, tremendous danger that a two way split may turn into a disaster when the second volume balloons again. That is the risk that Sanderson and Tor do not want to take.

And so what more can I say.

Right now, I choose to believe in Brandon Sanderson's integrity. I choose to believe in Harriet's love for her dead husband. And I choose to believe Tom Doherty's friendship and integrity. 3 books will give me the story that I deserve in the length I want and at the pace I'm used to from Wheel of Time. And if that means I pay an extra 30 bucks, that's fine too.

It's all so much easier when you DON'T come at this from the point of view of Brandon, Harriet, and Tor deciding to spit on Jordan's grave and robbing us of our money.

Sadly, some of you are incapable of doing that.

We read The Gathering Storm in November of this year and I'm looking forward to it. As Brandon said, let the work speak for itself and let us withhold our ignorant judgments until then.

Dennis

[Gertrude]

[quote name='Sword of the Morning' post='1744438' date='Apr 4 2009, 02.07']As Brandon said, let the work speak for itself and let us withhold our ignorant judgments until then.[/quote]

Amen brother.

[cseresz]

[quote]In fact, in a near fatal move of monumental stupidity, he instructed his agent to enter NO negotiations and to take the first offer Tor put on the table no questions asked.

Finishing A Memory of Light is a labor of love for him and as he is writing this novel, crafting this novel the weight of 20 years of fans' expectations are on hiim constantly. He's also not being paid MORE for any more writing he is doing.[/quote]
Did you read his NDA contract?
[quote]And as I suspect no one posting on this thread has 1/10 the experience of Sanderson or published even one book on a New York Times Bestselle list, I trust his opinion more than yours.[/quote]
I don't like torture people, so I will never write average fantasy novels like BS.
[quote][b]Out of respect for Jordan[/b], Sanderson is not going to simply haphazardly cut storylines, character arcs, etc out of the book.[/quote]
Cutting the prologue into chapters, giving extra chapters to characters, new structure etc. Is this respect?
[quote]it can EASILY take 750,000 words to write the conclusion WELL AND SUCCESSFULLY[/quote]
Why?
[quote]Whooooo, I sure am glad you aren't in charge of Jordan's legacy if that's the back-up plan.[/quote]
Bad for you. I'd like to read the vision of the original author, not a fanfiction book.
[quote]he has struck me as being an EXTRAORDINARILY intelligent, reasonable, and empathetic human being, I'm not surprised that he came to this conclusion:[/quote]
Hahahahaha.
[quote]As an aside, how many people here work routinely 80-100 hour weeks? Because . . . I have. For as long as a month at a time. How many people have gone 36 hours without sleep? Cause I have. How many people went 6 hours of sleep in 3 days . . . Cause I have. And no I'm not a drug addict. Trust me . . . it's not fun. And if Sanderson is pulling 16 to 17 hour days to try to hit his self-imposed 400,000 words by December 2008 deadline then I certainly DON'T want him to continue at that pace for too long or we will have TWO dead authors who won't be finishing Wheel of Time to worry about.[/quote]
Wow. Do you live with BS? Do you believe everything what other people say?
[quote]If you think so, you are in sore need of both an education and some pratice at being a human being.[/quote]
Thank you.
[quote]And, as hard as the shamelessly cynical of you out there find it to believe and I know it is impossible for you to believe it, they are also thinking of the fans.[/quote]
thinking of the money of the fans, Tor is a company, you know.
[quote]Money is not the primary motivating factor here. Making sure the story is done right is the motivating factor.[/quote]
Hahaha.
[quote]It's all so much easier when you DON'T come at this from the point of view of Brandon, Harriet, and Tor deciding to spit on Jordan's grave and robbing us of our money.
Sadly, some of you are incapable of doing that.[/quote]
Thanks again.
[quote]We read The Gathering Storm in November of this year and I'm looking forward to it. As Brandon said, let the work speak for itself and let us withhold our ignorant judgments until then.[/quote]
A very little minority (including me) will not read the book. We will wait for the notes.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1744310' date='Apr 4 2009, 03.12']The UK one-volume [i]Lord of the Rings[/i] editions tends to be trade paperback only, coming in at around 1,100 pages with all the appendices included. I belive word-count wise it clocks in at around 420,000 words, or not much longer than ASoS (take out the appendices, and I think ASoS is even longer than LotR).[/quote]

I have a mmpb sized one volume LOTR, and it's 1200 pages including the appendices and index.

[Poobah]

I choked on my tea when I read the comparison between the bible and Atlas Shrugged.

Edit : if you really think that Ayn Ran[b]t[/b]'s brick is comparable to the bible in any way aside from wordcount then your argument falls drastically short, automatically.

-Poobs

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Sword of the Morning' post='1744438' date='Apr 4 2009, 08.07']Out of respect for Jordan, Sanderson is not going to simply haphazardly cut storylines, character arcs, etc out of the book. [b]Also, he must adapt his style to Jordan's style. [/b]A Memory of Light can't read like Elantris or Mistwalker or Alcatraz. Some of you might have noticed that Wheel of Time tends to read long . . . with descriptions aplenty of many things from baths to braid tugging to Aes Sedai kneeling at Dumai's wells . . . Love it or hate it, you have to take the whole package and Sanderson needs to deliver a fair facsimile of it.

It is thus perfect and absolutely logical and feasible that having accepted a job without even knowing what he was in for and with the number of plots and subplots that it can EASILY take 750,000 words to write the conclusion WELL AND SUCCESSFULLY (i.e. in a way none of us would be able to do).

Now . . . we have problems. 750,000 words split into two volumes will give us 375,000 words each. 750,000 words is an estimate at what Brandon thinks will be the final tally at only the HALF WAY point. It could very well grow as he nears the finish line. Also notice that 750,000 words divided by 3 equals 250,000 words.

And yet, The Gathering Storm as it currently stands while it goes through the editing process stands at around 310,000 words.

...

So how did 250,000 words turn into 310,000? Because in revising and rewriting to make a book that READS well and FLOWS right, Brandon took what Tor wanted (around 225,000) and added almost 100,000 words to it to make it as good as he could.

[b]In other words, the length of this book can indeed grow and grow quickly as we move from draft to draft to finished product with revision after revision after revision. [/b]

And what happens for all those geniuses who think they know so much when we publish this thing in 2 volumes and then find out that the second volume has ballooned to 500,000 words? Because that can happen . . . easily.[/quote]
I'm starting to wonder, from this post, whether the "problem" at hand is that Sanderson simply [i]isn't [/i]operating in the real world (to use your phrase) at the moment, in that he's in a situation no other writer has been in before. Jordan wrote bloated books the like of which can be got away with by a tiny number of writers, a list that does not generally include Brandon Sanderson. A revision of a book by any writer not on that list [i]cuts[/i] text rather than adding it.

I think a lot of people here had come around to the tying up loose ends point, particularly after the long lists of things still requiring tying up that were posted earlier. If Sanderson is also imitating Jordan's style I can certainly agree that that would push up the length. The question remains whether he [i]should[/i] do it - whether it's going to work, and whether, like Jordan's actual writing, it'll end up padding out the resulting books to not much purpose.


[quote name='Poobah' post='1744484' date='Apr 4 2009, 10.19']I choked on my tea when I read the comparison between the bible and Atlas Shrugged.

Edit : if you really think that Ayn Ran[b]t[/b]'s brick is comparable to the bible in any way aside from wordcount then your argument falls drastically short, automatically.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:

[Milk of the Poppy]

[quote name='Sword of the Morning' post='1744438' date='Apr 4 2009, 09.07']And the choice they made was to publish these books in 3 volumes released a year apart as the best way to bring his vision as completely and as honestly as possible to all of us the fans who've waited 20 years to read what happens.[/quote]
Tor is not nearly ruthless enough.
They should have split the thing into 18 novellas.
Easy to produce, easy to read.
A new WoT book every 2 months for 3 years running!
What more could anybody want?

[Horza]

[quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1744521' date='Apr 4 2009, 21.45']Tor is not nearly ruthless enough.
They should have split the thing into 18 novellas.
Easy to produce, easy to read.
A new WoT book every 2 months for 3 years running!
What more could anybody want?[/quote]

An invisible car that runs on puppies?

[gyrehead]

[quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1744260' date='Apr 3 2009, 20.33']Just for the record - I don't really care if they go for the 3-volume or 1-volume option, because I won't be buying it anyway. I would have preferred it if the series would have been left unfinished and they would have just published Jordan's remaining notes and his projected ending.

Likewise I enjoyed the History of Middle-Earth series more than the actual Silmarillion. But I'm well aware that I'm in a minority in this.[/quote]

I was well aware of being in such a minority as well. So minor I did not realize someone even shared the same view! Ha.

I'm not sure I'll have the ability stay away. I think Sanderson writes Sanderson okay (though still way too raw and shallow for even his own attempted vision let alone the richer and more complex by far WoT). And the idea of him being the fanboi filter for what remains of any and all WoT dogma saddens me considerably. Still figurative trainwreckes fascinate me. And I see it as perhaps my karmic penance (Literary flagellation?) for being so devoted to the then unpopular philosophy of Jordan finishing the series when and how he wanted until his silly arrogant "one book only" stance (even if probably and understandably rooted in his realization of swiftly pending mortality) as opposed to what seemed like everyone else clamoring for him to just end it already. Lose-lose for me, huh? But four years or more for the Encyclopedia of Harriets is a long, long wait for me. And release of notes I suspect will be contingent on whether Sanderson gets to play even more with Jordan's toys so indiscriminately and they truly franchise WoT completely with the Outrigger novels also getting the fanfiction treatment.

Sadly I suspect that since we keep hearing how everything and anything in terms of decisions made always falls back on the "readers" (i.e. the buyers) own good that Sanderson or perhaps even someone else will be allowed to harvest those thin gleanings as long as fans buy.

It would have been nice to have any decisions made as to divisions for editing and publication and binding once a final draft was made instead of now having it turn into Sanderson writing in Jordan's Wheel of Time and until he and Harriet and Tor say "done". Again, though, I suspect I'm sitting in the back of the bus for that one as well. I find it a bit troubling that Sanderson is going to be responsible for writing a fifth of what I always considered and still consider to be Robert Jordan's sole purview with nothing but rush and then oops being the case since Sanderson was dubbed most gushing fanboi with a Tor contract already.

I come to all this as someone who has been a reader of Jordan's WoT since it came out (by a month or two -- Christmas money from my Nana Lucille well spent). And a reader of Sanderson's actually before he was in print (all arcs read before shelving except the last lackluster Mistborn book that seemed more Elantris simplistic and predictable than even I imagined it could be). I do have an education courtesy of hard work, Yale and Wharton thank you very much, plus a nice little paid stint at Cambridge. I do considerable myself a human being despite the references above just as I consider myself a "real" American despite Sarah Palin's oddly similar opinion attempted as dogma efforts. I will confess to being cynical but I think I probably define the word a bit differently because I tend to see it as an mental exercise in weighing as many options as possible. I also see it as not adopting one stance and assuming it hold true for everyone else, let alone is "right" and any variance is wrong. I don't think I am paranoid having interned at Random House and Harper both in the finance dept and having a sister at Harper and a sister-in-law at Orion in my thinking that authors nor editors nor publishers are omniscient or that their experience automatically makes them possess common sense that a reader with a brain could exhibit. Not to mention that even with all the best intentions, Sanderson, Tor and Harriet all have agendas and investments in this that go beyond "doing it for the fans' best interests".

[Werthead]

[quote name='Sword of the Morning' post='1744438' date='Apr 4 2009, 08.07']Let's approach this logically.[/quote]

This should be good.

[quote]That's the number we're looking at. Bear in mind that the LONGEST book in the Wheel of Time is The Shadow Rising clocking in at around 393,000 words or so which is a shade under 400,000. And I thought the font was kinda small and the margins really cramped and ugly on the hardback I have.[/quote]

I don't know about the US version, but the UK paperback has quite large letters and a nice font (Times New Roman) for the first four books. From Book 5 it switches to a much smaller but more shittily-spaced font which, among other things, makes the books inexplicably longer (LoC is 4,000 words shorter than TSR but 30 pages longer).

[quote]1. Read any of his books.[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]2. Speak to him at a book signing, via email, listen to interviews on podcasts.[/quote]

No (he's not been to the UK yet), no but yes on his blog and yes.

[quote]3. Read the touching eulogy he wrote on Jordan. Read his blogs on getting the job, his re-read comments, his thoughts as he worked on A Memory of Light, etc.[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]I'm also curious how many people are involved at all with the publishing industry? 4 of you? 2? 3?[/quote]

Define 'involved'. In regular communication with authors, senior editors and publicists at multiple publishers in both the UK and USA, and attending publishing events and awards on a regular basis? Yes.

[quote]How many of you are published authors?
How many of you work as professional editors for publishers?[/quote]

"Do not DARE criticise something you are not involved with! Are you an economist? Then NEVER criticise the government for raising your taxes or cutting public spending! Are you a musician? No? Then NEVER criticise your favourite band when they start phoning it in!"

[quote]Yet, EVERYBODY here is apparently an expert not only on Branden Sanderson's motivations as an author and a professional but also apparently has an intimate understanding of exactly what Tor is capable of, how much money is being made, what is motivating Harriet and Tom Doherty, etc.[/quote]

A lot of this information is available in the public domain, and BS mentioned this on his blog.

[quote]And yet, The Gathering Storm as it currently stands while it goes through the editing process stands at around 310,000 words.

What happened boys and girls?[/quote]

He inserted 25,000 words of material to make the first third of the book stand alone. If the book hadn't been split, that material would not have been needed. The very act of splitting the book in three has made it long enough to warrant three volumes, which is kind of amusing.

[quote]Or do you guys even know where I got all these mysterious and wonderful facts from?[/quote]

The saucer people?

[quote]Am I making it up? No. I got it from somewhere. Maybe it would be best to find out where.[/quote]

Let us know about that. I got my facts from his blog.

[quote]So how did 250,000 words turn into 310,000? Because in revising and rewriting to make a book that READS well and FLOWS right, Brandon took what Tor wanted (around 225,000) and added almost 100,000 words to it to make it as good as he could.[/quote]

No, he added 25,000 words to the natural end-point (at 275,000 words, as he says clearly on his blog) to make it stand alnoe. If the book hadn't been split in three but in two at 400,000 words, which he had already been writing towards, this would not have happened.

[quote]Split into 3 books. Give himself 300,000 words a book to play with if needed. If not, fine and dandy. But if he needs it he HAS it. Publish it every year . . . much like the Lord of the Rings were released in consecutive years. No issues with length. No issues with binding. No issues with long waits for the fans. And he has time to relax a little, back off the breakneck pace that was threatening to burn him out, and write this thing out the way it deserves.[/quote]

I don't have a problem with this explanation at all. But we weren't given it. We were sold a pack of lies instead.

[quote]Before profits, before money, before any thought of trying to screw Wheel of Time fans, these people are thinking about Jim Oliver Rigney's spirit, his life work, his magnum opus, and his legacy.[/quote]

Brandon and Harriet are. Tor are thinking about the money. They are not a charity.

[quote]And, as hard as the shamelessly cynical of you out there find it to believe and I know it is impossible for you to believe it, they are also thinking of the fans.[/quote]

Tor are thinking about them all right, every time they look at their balance sheets.

[quote]And the choice they made was to publish these books in 3 volumes released a year apart as the best way to bring his vision as completely and as honestly as possible to all of us the fans who've waited 20 years to read what happens.[/quote]

It's the [i]safest[/i] way, in case Vols II and III balloon to large sizes, sure. The [i]best[/i] way? No, that's bollocks. The [i]best[/i] way would be for BS to finish the whole thing, edit the whole thing, and then split it. If it's three books at that point, fair enough, but most likely it would be two. But Tor have said they want a book this year anyway they can get it to make money out of the Christmas season, and splitting the book in three is the only way to do that.

[quote]The argument that A Memory of Light can be split into 2 volumes easily and without risk is not a correct argument. There is tremendous risk, tremendous danger that a two way split may turn into a disaster when the second volume balloons again. That is the risk that Sanderson and Tor do not want to take.[/quote]

It's not a risk they have to take. They could wait until the book is finished and decide then. But Tor are impatient for the green, so this move was made now.

Maybe it'll turn out all right and the combined three books (minus the material added to each book to make it stand alone) will indeed prove to have been too large for two volumes. But to ascribe nobility and justice as Tor's motivating factor here is breathtakingly naive.

[Daena the Defiant]

[quote name='fionwe1987' post='1744362' date='Apr 4 2009, 00.08']I was just re-reading Mat's chapter in LoC where he is in Maerone, and I can'tt believe that I never noticed Graendal's presence in that story.[/quote]

Side-rant!

That's not Lady Baseene, aka Graendal. That's literally just another random Domani merchant. Graenda's Lady Baseene persona is an elderly invalid noblewoman, not a travelling international merchant.