Football thread 14

[DJDonegal]

Cali, I personally think the Carragher foul on Owen was a straight red, but his first half tackle on Carrick was inch perfect. He got the ball, it just came off Carrick's foot again which made it look like the pass went straight through. Carrick made no claim for a penalty, and neither did any other United player that I could see. Even the United fan I was with didn't think it was a penalty, and he is die hard. If United win while he's sitting in a certain place, he will watch every match from that position until they lose.

And some people made the argument that Carragher didn't need to walk for the foul on Owen because a red card is for impeding a clear goal scoring opportunity, and Owen was running away from goal. Glen Johnson was right next to Carragher when the tackle was made, so the referee may have decided Johnson was in the right place to impede the Owen chance. Johnson's actual defensive abilities don't come into the equation, though. ;)

[ljkeane]

Liverpool were very lucky to get 3 points. A draw would have been fair.

:lol: I think you're displaying your bias a bit here, even Ferguson acknowledged that Liverpool clearly deserved to win.

[Lord Baelish]

Liverpool deserved to win on the balance of play. They created the majority of the chances. United's midfield just couldn't get into the game. Even when the usually deadly Nani came on. :P

But Carragher definitely deserved to be sent off. He was the last man and dragged Owen down when he would have burst into the penalty area. Lucas was lucky to stay on the pitch, too. How the hell did he not even get a yellow? I counted at least 6 fouls he committed. None of them on their own was enough for a yellow, but he should have been done for persistent fouling at least.

If Arsenal and Man City win their games in hand, the top four will be separated by 3 points, with Tottenham 2 points back and Liverpool behind by a further 1. If the top teams continue to drop points like this, we could be in for a genuinely exciting race for the title and the top four spots.

At the other end of the table, West Ham will be buoyed by their second-half performance, even if their goals were gifted to them. I can see them going on a bit of a run now and dragging themselves to safety. I can't see Portsmouth (barring some great transfers in January again) or Hull having enough to stay up. And judging from what I've seen so far, Burnley or Birmingham will fill the last relegation spot.

[polishgenius]

Are you trying to say that Rafa (or anyone else, for that matter) are as bad as Fergie when it comes to complaining about the ref? :lol:

Well, Fergie gets done more than Rafa, yeah. It doesn't mean he complains less though, it means he complains more vociferously. He's usually doing it to take attention onto himself and away from the team though, even though he does occasionally cross the line (like with Wiley).

As for worse- Neil Warnock.

[Lord Baelish]

Nicer than Warnock is drier than the sea. ;)

[mormont]

But Carragher definitely deserved to be sent off. He was the last man and dragged Owen down when he would have burst into the penalty area.

I hope you do know that the 'last man' thing is a myth? The rule is, you get red for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. The vast majority of the time, if there's no other defender and you are the last man, the ref is going to count that as a 'clear opportunity', but this does not mean that either

a) every occasion on which you're the last man is an automatic red or

b) you can't be guilty of denying a clear opportunity unless you're the last man.

I haven't seen the incident, but it seems at least theoretically possible that the ref thought Owen didn't have a clear opportunity to score, regardless of whether Carragher was the last man. (Owen's direction of travel is similarly relevant, but not conclusive. You can have a 'clear opportunity' without necessarily moving directly toward the goal: and moving directly toward goal is not necessarily a 'clear opportunity'.)

[Lord Baelish]

I am aware of that rule, yes. But in this instance Carragher being the last man is relevent because it means he did stop a clear goalscoring opportunity (even if it was Owen). He would have been clean through in the box, with no other defenders close to him. Carragher had to go.

[DJDonegal]

For the record Rydel, I do agree with you on Carragher having to go (as I said in my last post), but I think the incident is open to interpretation, as I also said in my last post.

It can be argued Owen was going away from goal, and that Johnson was in a recoverable position. My argument is Johnson was behind Carragher, and so if Owen was past Carragher that's it. Their argument was that Owen was going away from goal, so he would have either had to shoot before Johnson could cut in and cut the angle, or come back inside and then get past Johnson who was making a straight run into the box.

I can only assume the referee decided on the latter interpretation.

[Lord Baelish]

I know. Just seemed pretty blatant to me. Liverpool certainly seemed to get preferential treatment from the ref throughout the game. I would have been annoyed if it had been against anyone other than Man Utd, who have had plenty of ref bias in their favour over the years.

[Mme Erzulie]

What a bunch of fucking whiners. How come no one is complaining that Vidic didn't get a red for his foul on Kuyt?

Also, the ref expert (Gallagher?) on SkySports News seemed to think the ref did the right thing on both occasions involving Carragher.

[Iskaral Pust]

I'm hardly Carragher's biggest fan, but I think he is taking some unfair abuse here. Owen's run was clearly angled away from goal, he was pretty far out from goal and Johnson would have intercepted his path to goal if Owen had not been fouled and had changed direction back toward goal.

As Mormont said, it's not about being the last man, it's about denying a clear goal-scoring chance. That's why Vidic did not receive a straight red for his foul on Kuyt (and that was a lot more central than the foul on Owen).

[DJDonegal]

I don't think Carragher has taken any abuse. If anybody has, it's the referee who made the decision. Carragher did what he did, but it was the referee who made the final call.

Erzulie, I guess nobody is complaining about Vidic because they just think "Well, he got a red anyway." I know it's the difference between a one and three game ban, but the only people directly affected by that are Blackburn and... Oh, Chelsea. Maybe you do want the three game ban after all. Depends on who the bigger threat is.

Talking of the Vidic dismissal though, was Andy Gray laughing when Vidic got sent off? Twat.

[Sir Thursday]

Better to be talking about badly performing referees than your badly performing players.

Not in my opinion. It's one thing to take the blame as a manager to shield your players, and quite another to blame someone else to shield your players. Surely it's better for his players to hear him say that they had an off day than it is for him to prevaricate with rubbish about the referee, not to say that and end up with the players thinking that Liverpool are just better than them*? And in any case, it still makes him a bigger whiner and generally a far more odious person than Benitez.

Sir Thursday

*Although somehow I don't see that happening :P

[Alcibiades]

What a bunch of fucking whiners. How come no one is complaining that Vidic didn't get a red for his foul on Kuyt?

I'm finding this tedious too. I was talking to a man u fan earlier today, and all he did was whinge about the ref. When I said that the pass to Torres for the first goal was exquisite, he said "whatever" and started complaining about Ferdinand. When they lose it's either because of the Ref or screw ups by man u players. Never acknowledge others.

Carragher's tackle in the box was class. Hard tackle, in the box, brave, and perfectly timed. People complaining about tackles like that are what's pushing this game to become a non-contact sport. That tackle was no foul.

[Padraig]

Surely it's better for his players to hear him say that they had an off day than it is for him to prevaricate with rubbish about the referee, not to say that and end up with the players thinking that Liverpool are just better than them*?

What a manager says in front of the camera may bear no resemblance to what he says to the players in private.

Whatever Ferguson does, it seems to work well enough.

[polishgenius]

Not in my opinion. It's one thing to take the blame as a manager to shield your players, and quite another to blame someone else to shield your players. Surely it's better for his players to hear him say that they had an off day than it is for him to prevaricate with rubbish about the referee, not to say that and end up with the players thinking that Liverpool are just better than them*?

It's not so much taking the blame as diverting the attention. I'm sure he tells the players what needs to be said, but the papers are again talking about naughty Fergie and the referees and not how poorly we played.

As for his odiousness, I think it says volumes about him that despite his public persona and his regular arguments with everyone, there's almost no-one in the game with a genuinely bad word to say about him. The only player who's left United in acrimonous circumstances who's felt the need to badmouth him after is Tevez, who had far less cause for complaint than Beckham, Stam or Ruud, young players who don't make the cut always seem to have glowing praise for the manner in which he let them down, and he's known among managers in the league as always being open to a phone call to give some advice or whatever. Even most referees accounts seem to say that yes, sometimes he acts a bastard towards us but no, he's not a scumbag and I have plenty respect for him (Jeff Winters and Graham Poll being the two I can think of).

[Black Wizard]

Talking of the Vidic dismissal though, was Andy Gray laughing when Vidic got sent off? Twat.

Everyone should laugh when a Manchester United player gets sent off.

[polishgenius]

I love the sound of crying in the morning. Sounds like... jealousy.

*runs*

[Renasko]

When they lose it's either because of the Ref or screw ups by man u players. Never acknowledge others.

That's because they have the best team in the land, and they know it. Arrogance works in their favour most of the team, though.

[Calibandar]

Argive

When I said that the pass to Torres for the first goal was exquisite, he said "whatever" and started complaining about Ferdinand. When they lose it's either because of the Ref or screw ups by man u players. Never acknowledge others.

That's a load of crap though.

First off, you can't generalize like that. I'm a Man U supporter and will always acknowledge if they lost against a genuinely better side. I'd rather Man U loses because they were really outgunned than lose matches in which they themselves played one of the worst games of the season.

The 4-1 defeat Man U was dealt the last match against Liverpool was far easier to respect for instance.

Secondly, of course your Man U friend would complain about the ref or because of poor Man U play. That's because Man U played a very subpar match, and the ref clearly favoured Liverpool in addition to that. Also, Liverpool failed to play really well either and a draw would have been much fairer a result anyway, also considering Valencia's shot to the post. It's not like Liverpool created heaps of chances. Similarly, I can imagine his criticism of Ferdinand because he is the one player who's looked out of sorts repeatedly for Man U in the last few months, because of injuries and a simple lack of form. Which is not to say Torres isn't a great striker, because he is.

And let's face it, it's not like the Liverpool supporters in this thread have been a shining beacon of objectivity. Or that Man U supporters in general are in any way worse than any other team.

I agree though that I'd much rather see Ferguson give his players some flack openly instead of always whining about the ref, he loses all credibility that way. If you play a shit game, say so, and say so first, instead of an exclusive ref complaint.