Penn State & Syracuse Scandals

[Trebla]

That was an enlightening read. It details the Penn State culture that allowed this all to happen. I think the one that comes off the worst is Graham Spanier, the former President of PSU. He kept brushing off the Board of Trustees, denying Penn State had any involvement, and even believed that PSU General Counsel Cynthia Baldwin could talk the Pennsylvania Attorney General into dropping charges!!!

At least on vocal Paterno defender has backed off his stance: Nike owner Phil Knight. He is taking Paterno's name off the Nike child center. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-nike-change-name-paterno-172013250--ncaaf.html

[Gold Storm]

I posted in this thread before, that there may not be a specific NCAA rule that Penn State broke were they can give Penn State sanctions; however, this was before they had evidence that Joe Pa, the AD, and the school president were all involved in a coverup of crimes committed on school property. Lack of institutional control can cover a large area and can include crimes committed by school employees and officials. Sandusky might not have been a employee (the second time this happened), but the other people involved in the cover-up broke the law and might have broke NCAA rule/regulations.

[S John]

There are so, so many things wrong with this situation. I mean, I can kinda see how maybe they tried to protect the school's name by handling it internally at first. I don't agree with that decision at all, but I can understand it. What I really don't get though is why they continued to let the guy hang around the program and be around children on campus after repeated incidents. You'd think that 'handling it internally' would have meant that, at the very least, they were going to get this guy the hell away from Penn State athletics for good. Ban him from participating in athletic department events or organizations, ban him from use of the facilities. But they didn't even do that, nothing was done and Sandusky maintained access and privelages. Its sick enough that he wasn't reported to the police immediately, but they let the guy hang around like nobody had walked in on him showering with young boys. Crazy.

I'm a big believer in handling things on your own without running to the law every time, but this is one of those times where you have a responibility to speak up. I can't beleive that several grown men let this go for so long. The new report shows without a doubt that they knew something was amiss becuase they had discussed it amongst themselves.

[alguien]

Well I sort of enjoyed this article courtesy of The Onion:

Freeh Report: Joe Paterno Burning In Hell Right Now

[Kalbear]

LoIC covers precisely what this is, as does failure to monitor. Both are reasonably broad and there is complete and reasonable precedent for this as a NCAA violation (an example: OSU and the tattoos had Tressel not reporting a crime as a failure to monitor). The NCAA has had violations for these sorts of things in the past; the important part as far as the NCAA goes is whether school officials failed to report violations (legal or otherwise). In this case, they did.

I also think it's clear that PSU should get this in gear now. The PSU fans have claimed from the getgo that there wasn't enough evidence that JoePa knew anything, that he made any decisions, etc. Or that Sandusky was let go in 1999 because of this. We now are almost certain that both of these things are bogus - JoePa was consulted multiple times. Sandusky's behavior was discussed in 1998 and the reasons for his leaving were stated as his incident in 1998. At this point it becomes whether you can weigh the raping of children against the value of a football program; to me, that seems ludicrously one-sided when you put it that way.

They should get the death penalty so that no other college football institution believes it is the correct thing to suppress knowledge of criminal acts in order to avoid hurting their football program. They should get it so that every single janitor who ever witnesses anything will make sure that they come forward, are encouraged to do so, and are rewarded for their service and honesty. They should get the death penalty - and more - because the culture of football at PSU is irrevocably tarnished and tainted, and the only way to change it is to make every fan of PSU hate JoePa as much as the rest of us do.

[S John]

They should get the death penalty so that no other college football institution believes it is the correct thing to suppress knowledge of criminal acts in order to avoid hurting their football program. They should get it so that every single janitor who ever witnesses anything will make sure that they come forward, are encouraged to do so, and are rewarded for their service and honesty. They should get the death penalty - and more - because the culture of football at PSU is irrevocably tarnished and tainted, and the only way to change it is to make every fan of PSU hate JoePa as much as the rest of us do.

I completely agree, but I don't see it ever happening. PSU is still a pretty big fish in the college football world, probably a first tier program. it would be an unprecedented move by the NCAA to crush a program with the clout that PSU has. I hope it happens, but I doubt it will.

[Jaxom 1974]

I completely agree, but I don't see it ever happening. PSU is still a pretty big fish in the college football world, probably a first tier program. it would be an unprecedented move by the NCAA to crush a program with the clout that PSU has. I hope it happens, but I doubt it will.

I agree that it's unlikely that the NCAA does the correct things and gives Penn State the death penalty, but "Too Big To Fail" is cannot be an excuse.

[Gold Storm]

This Penn State press conference is a whole lot of nothing

[S John]

There's a poll on Fox Sports about whether or not PSU football deserves the death penalty. Right now it's running about 77 / 23 in favor.

edit - actually that's 73 / 27

[Eponine]

LoIC covers precisely what this is, as does failure to monitor. Both are reasonably broad and there is complete and reasonable precedent for this as a NCAA violation (an example: OSU and the tattoos had Tressel not reporting a crime as a failure to monitor). The NCAA has had violations for these sorts of things in the past; the important part as far as the NCAA goes is whether school officials failed to report violations (legal or otherwise). In this case, they did.

Furthermore, part of Sandusky's grooming was having the victims be able to meet football players. At least one former player has expressed guilt that he met a victim but did not recognize that abuse was taking place (the victim did not suggest that the player was a witness or should have known). While obviously the players were not the people most wronged in the big picture, the NCAA's specific mission is "to protect student-athletes" (per their webpage). These college kids who the NCAA's main job is to protect were unknowingly being used by a pedophile as enticement, and their own coach and AD enabled that.

[Seventh Pup]

I have written and deleted about 3 posts. To me it is beyond sickening that a man, and organization that helped to cover up the rape, and abuse of children can be lionized because they won a lot of games. Give them the fucking "death penalty" of penalties, show that kids matter more to you then tv contracts.

[TerraPrime]

Give them the fucking "death penalty" of penalties, show that kids matter more to you then tv contracts.

But you can only show that if you think that, and there in lies the rub, eh?

Too much money (for both NCAA and Penn State), to be honest, to get rid of the program. I think the best one can hope for is some very severe sanction for a few years.

That, and every game that Penn State plays the fans of the opponents will taunt them calling them pedo's and such.

[Crazydog7]

I have written and deleted about 3 posts. To me it is beyond sickening that a man, and organization that helped to cover up the rape, and abuse of children can be lionized because they won a lot of games. Give them the fucking "death penalty" of penalties, show that kids matter more to you then tv contracts.

I think you have it right there. This is America where unfortunatly the only fucking we do not tolerate is with our precious sports programs. God help anyone if they fuck with football.

[Jaxom 1974]

But you can only show that if you think that, and there in lies the rub, eh?

Too much money (for both NCAA and Penn State), to be honest, to get rid of the program. I think the best one can hope for is some very severe sanction for a few years.

That, and every game that Penn State plays the fans of the opponents will taunt them calling them pedo's and such.

To not follow through and "kill" the program at Penn State in lieu of sanctions and the loss of scholarships, as they'd do when players get free tattoos, would effectively neuter the NCAA as an organization.

[Maithanet]

When people talk about "killing" the program, do they mean a year or two without football at Penn State or Penn State is no longer a school that has a football program, and that is not going to change ever?

Because I would support suspending the program for a couple years and letting all the scholarship athletes go elsewhere if they so desire. Then let Penn State football try to recover from this PR hit as best they can, they'll be wallowing in misery or mediocrity for years, if not decades. That would be a clear lesson to other football programs not to let football get bigger than anything else, and would be a constant reminder of how the great can be laid low.

If we're talking a true permanent "death" of the program, that seems almost too convenient, college football could just ignore that Penn State even existed.

[Eponine]

I think with SMU that the entire football program was shut down for a year, the next year they could only play away games (so that those schools wouldn't lose money, but I think PSU should be forced to buy out those games), and they forfeited a large number of scholarships, bowl game appearances, and other privileges for several years. Athletes were able to transfer without penalty - I think PSU should have to keep paying scholarships for transfers, esp. if the sentence comes down in August. It's not a permanent shut down.

[MisterOJ]

I'm generally not a fan of handing down punishments to folks who had nothing to do with the transgression.

What Paterno and the rest of the administration did was sickening. But, they are not at Penn State anymore. Everyone that had anything to do with the coverup is gone from Penn State. They all need to be punished.

The folks in the football program now (players and coaches alike) had nothing to do with the actions of Paterno and company. They really don't deserve to be punished.

Just my two cents.

[Trebla]

I'm generally not a fan of handing down punishments to folks who had nothing to do with the transgression.

What Paterno and the rest of the administration did was sickening. But, they are not at Penn State anymore. Everyone that had anything to do with the coverup is gone from Penn State. They all need to be punished.

The folks in the football program now (players and coaches alike) had nothing to do with the actions of Paterno and company. They really don't deserve to be punished.

Just my two cents.

I disagree. What allowed this to continue to happen was the culture of Football First at that university. Yes, almost any major college is guilty of that but not to the extent of this morass of slime. There was a code of silence there not to do anything to mess with the program. Two janitors witnessed child rape but were terrified they would be fired if they crossed JoPa. The student body rioted when Paterno was fired. Board members also failed by allowing the football program to run rough shod over the rest of the university. I'm not sure that the current coaches are exactly innocent. Many of them were around when Sandusky was doing all this. The report stated there were numerous warning flags yet nobody said anything.

I think the NCAA can allow the current players to transfer to other colleges without losing a year of eligibility. Frankly, that would be a mercy. You are right that those players are innocent in all this but they are the ones that are going to feel the real wrath of the rest of the country when they travel to away games. I think Penn State should get a two year ban and the entire program started up from scratch.

[TerraPrime]

To not follow through and "kill" the program at Penn State in lieu of sanctions and the loss of scholarships, as they'd do when players get free tattoos, would effectively neuter the NCAA as an organization.

I do not follow college sports, so I am in no place to guess, but it seems that NCAA losing credibility is only going to happen if the majority of the fans value a principled stand against a program that seems to have run amok more than value a great and famous football program. Do they?

[S John]

Yes, Eponine is correct. When people say they want Penn State to get the 'death penalty' they mean a punishment similar to what SMU got - not no football forever. No football program for at least one season. That doesn't sound like much, but it's pretty devastating. They'd get a lot of transfers and then they'd have to completely start the team over from scratch after that. As someone who follows college sports pretty closely 'Id say that Penn State is more likely than a lot of other programs to be able to recover from that punishment. I definitely think they'd recover faster than SMU, but it's still a pretty big deal.

To not follow through and "kill" the program at Penn State in lieu of sanctions and the loss of scholarships, as they'd do when players get free tattoos, would effectively neuter the NCAA as an organization.

The NCAA is mind-numbingly inconsistent when it comes to meting out punishments. Its hard to tell what they'll do. Word on the street is that the NCAA has vowed not to deal out the 'death penalty' again because of the long-term damage it inflicted on SMU.

Well, partially inflicted, in my opinion. There were some other factors at play that also dicked over SMU. SMU got the death penalty in 1987 when they were a part of the now defunct Southwest Conference. In 1990 while SMU was still on probation, Arkansas left the Southwest Conference to join the SEC. In '94 Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Baylor, and the University of Texas all left the Southwest Conference to join with the Big 8 and form the Big 12 conference. Basically SMU was left in the cold and joined the WAC. So a major part of why SMU has languished since the 'death penalty' is really just the fact that they went from playing in a power conference to a mid-major conference at about the same time. Had they not gotten nailed by the NCAA, maybe its them that gets into the Big 12 instead of Baylor, but who knows. Anyway, the death penalty certainly harmed SMU big time, but it won't hurt Penn State the same way because there will always be room for Penn State in a major conference.