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[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion

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Did anyone notice the Sea Bitch was huge? Even if it's Asha's ship, I never thought the Ironborn ships were going to be that big. It's pretty awesome, like a full-sized frigate.

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Davos was very much an agnostic in the ACOK; he didn't turn to the Faith until ASOS, when he was stranded on Blackwater Bay and had a vision of the Mother.

I guess he's a somewhat of an unenthusiastic follower of the Seven. But he does feel something for them. In his first POV:

"The gods had never meant much to Davos the smuggler, though like most men he had been known to make offerings to the Warrior before battle, to the Smith when he launched ship, and to the Mother whenever his wife grew great with child. He felt ill as he watched them burn, and not only from the smoke."

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Because, the shadow baby is a pretty good WTF moment to end the episode with. It makes people who don't read the book wondering what it is going to do for a week. Leaves for good discussion.

Then, you open up the next episode with a dramatic scene and clarity on the shadow baby that people have been talking/wondering about all week. Good choice, IMO.

They've actually done that a lot this season, and it's worked quite well. The transition between S2E03 and E04 were the only ones so far that weren't directly linked. E01 ended with Arya and Gendry on the wagon, then E02 opened with Arya in camp. E02 closed with Jon Snow getting clocked by Craster, then E03 opens with Craster kicking Mormont and the rangers out of his keep, and closed with Arya getting taken captive by the Lannisters. E04 ends with the shadowbaby, and E05 begins with Renly's death. While I have issues with some of the transitions within episodes, I appreciated that nice little bit of continuity between them.

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Loved Gendry shirtless.

Loved Margaery.

Renly's death I was never going to be happy about.

LOVED Tywin and Arya's interaction.

I agree with others that Stannis feels more like Stannis now.

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Ran,

I don't remember the book that well, but maybe it was to explain why the Tyrells jump to the Lannisters instead of to Stannis and a reason to go after Stannis, instead of hunting down Brienne and Catelyn, which if he was really that mad he probably would have done. I love George but he could be every bit as inconsistent as anyone else. Also if we see him fighting in Blackwater why give him a scene here. George could be pretty redundant some times and I think the show is going to take out things that happen twice even if the context is different i.e shadowbaby.

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I guess he's a somewhat of an unenthusiastic follower of the Seven. But he does feel something for them. In his first POV:

Right - I think of him as something of a lapsed Catholic who participates in the rituals because that's what he was brought up with, but doesn't have any real spiritual connection to the faith. It's not until Blackwater Bay that he truly embraces it, and it's what inspires him to try and assassinate Melisandre.

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Did anyone notice the Sea Bitch was huge? Even if it's Asha's ship, I never thought the Ironborn ships were going to be that big. It's pretty awesome, like a full-sized frigate.

Yeah, it was supposed to be a longship, like the Danes used (I get terribly upset when people call them Vikings). That was a much bigger ship, but it was visually stunning, which I think was the idea.

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Am I the only one who is glad that they're apparently cutting the Reeds? I never liked them in the books, especially creepy little Jojen. Giving Bran Jojen's greendreams and sending him north with Osha is a good way to simplify the story for tv without cutting too much important detail.

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Very tight, strong episode.

Here is what I liked:

The Maid of Tarth: Brienne’s reaction to Renly’s death and her knightly response to Cat were very big moments to the show. IN that moment you did not just capture the “puppy-love” that Brienne had for Renly but that epic sense of loss and the underlying hints of failure (as in she failed to protect Rely). Later when she swears feelty to Cat she does so not out of weakness but out of strength. She was incredible this episode.

The Lord of Winterfell: Bran Stark would have made one HELL of a lord. Great moment in the show when he sent Cassel to Torren’s square (though… wasn’t that guy JUST A MOMENT AGO at Oxcross?) Bran knows what it means to have others fight for you; sometimes you have to go to bat for them.

His is the Fury: From that guttural scream that killed Renly to the cold-hearted plan to kill the Lannisters, Stannis Baratheon is a raging storm of fury. And he still listens. In the books, Stannis’ greatest attribute is that he listens to wise counsel. Him and Davois’ discussion was a point of great writing: Davos brings to Stannis the very concerns many of us had: is THIS Stannis suddenly soft? And our Stannis’ response? Fuck no. This Stannis listens to Davos challenges Davos’ assumptions just as Davos challenges his and in the end, he listened. And in the end- he’s coming. Great scene.

This Samwell Tarly is Better than the Other Samwell Tarly: When the show started I said that Robert Baratheon and Viserys were two characters in the show that were marked improvements over the same characters in the books. That group got its thrird member- Samwell Tarly in the series is just a better character than the one in the books. Book Sam is afraid and craven and cowardly and talks incessantly about being afraid and craven and cowardly through ever scene in the books. At some point he would toughen up. This Sam has a lot more joy, far more joi de vive than book Sam. This Sam is a lot more interesting and a lot more realistic. Alla round better character.

(Honorable Mention: Doloous Edd is tremendous).

The Queen: For the third episode in a row, Maergery Tyrell is burning up the screen. As I have stated- In it to win it. She’s not broken up AT ALL about Renly’s death. Fuck that guy; a corpse rarely can become King. And this one does not want to be a Queen…. She wants to be THE Queen.

The Hand and His Right Arm: Gotta love Tyrion and Bronn; great scenes; phenomenal dialog and a great understanding of how Tyrion’s mind works. Slowly but surely he figures it all out. The wildfire is what it is. Its dangerous and horrible and deadly and its all that stands between KL and Stannis. And so better to have wildfire under his own control than it would be to have it under Cersei’s control. And maybe it will keep Stannis out. Now add to all that Bronn’s incredible back-and-forth with Tyrion and you have a great tandum. And no Shae and that is always a good thing.

(Honorable Mention: The Alchemist scene was 10 kinds of win)

The Lion and His Cup Bearer: I saved the best for last. Tywin Lannister’s dissection of Arya Stark and her crisp and determined parrying his attacks was EPIC. It was good writing, it was tremendous acting; they discussed important issues that had real consequences; and the whole time… they KNOW. Each one is staring at the other with this deep introspection, staring deep into the other (the camera just on-top of each as they stare at the other). And the whole while, each one knows the other is onto them. But how much? Who is playing who? And they are deeply invested in the other; almost dancing.

And then she says that line (from the trailer): Anyone can be killed. And she’s right. But who does she mean? You think she means Tywin. But Tywin… Tywin knows who he is thinking about. And that shit just met a girl… and he liked her.

That scene between Arya and Tywin was the most intimate scene in the show. And those characters never spoke a word to the other in the books. Yeah, that’s a 10.

Not So Sure About ….:

Renly’s Life and Death: I preferred Renly’s Murder in the way the book had it; seemed more closely cropped and tighter. This version was more raw and obvious. Not a big deal, but overall, Renly Baratheon as a character was never what he was in the books- not bad, but never really good. And he ended much in the way he lived: always coming up short.

The Nit-Pick with Cersei and Tyrion: How come every idea that involves death either originates from Cersei or Joff? IN the books, wildfire was always Tyrion’s idea. Why not keep it that way? Why make Cersei leap up and start that race? Tyrion can have bad intentions too, you know? That doesn’t make him a bad guy …

So Much for the Budget: So after we all got into it about Dany’s dragons not making an appearance in the LAST episode to somehow excuse for the pointless dialog from the gates of Qarth, this episode we see dragons everywhere (which I really liked). But then why not just show them the dragons, then?

I miss Jaime. And Sansa. And Joff and the Hound. Not so much a complaint because they only have so much time but I still like what I like.

Did Not Like:

Nothing. This was just a solid episode back to front. Great stuff. No real complaints.

But how did Cassell get from Oxcross to Winterfell in like a week?

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Did anyone notice the Sea Bitch was huge? Even if it's Asha's ship, I never thought the Ironborn ships were going to be that big. It's pretty awesome, like a full-sized frigate.

Not at all what I pictured a ship from the Iron Isles to look like. I always pictured something more like a viking longship.

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LOVED Ayra's exchange with Tywin. "Anyone can be killed." Wow, that was awesome. Get that young lady an Emmy and a Golden Globe ASAP.

I got chills and I sure hope Tywin did as well!! do we know who any of the council members are supposed to be? besides the one Lannister that gets kicked back to lannisport? I'm trying to remember when Kevan pops up and if he's been casted yet

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I got chills and I sure hope Tywin did as well!! do we know who any of the council members are supposed to be? besides the one Lannister that gets kicked back to lannisport? I'm trying to remember when Kevan pops up and if he's been casted yet

Kevan was in season one, and he was at the council meeting in this episode IIRC.

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thoughts SE1EP05

-Renly's death was okay, cant top the imagination, but I really liked seeing Brienne destroy those 2 guys

-Roy Dotrice, yay!, but no Joffrey's chain I guess?

-Even though there are omissions and changes (like everything else in the show) I'm really enjoying Theon's parts the most so far

-Dragons! so cute...

-now for my biggest complaint, so I was enjoying seeing and hearing Jaqen H'ghar talk, but I got the wind knocked out of me twice during this scene

1. WTF with him killing The Tickler first!? granted I knew we weren't going to have Chiswyck nor Weese, but The Tickler? that was supposed to be Arya's kill.... its like one of the most orgasmic and satisfying scenes in the books having Arya's stabbing The Tickler yelling out, "Is there gold in this village!?..." pretty lame, I hope they remedy this come time when she hooks up with The Hound,

2. did I hear Jaqen H'ghar say "The Red God"?? so are they combining 2 gods into one now? maybe its just a personal nitpick but how can you do that? the gods in these books aren't some paper-doll gods that can be switched around with no accord, one of the reasons why we love these books so much is that GRRM has everything corned down, including the religious and spiritual side of the ASOIAF universe, each God/belief has their own system and philosophy behind it, to switch them around or combine them would negate the motivations and beliefs behind the followers of each respective God/system, thats like saying: 'nihilism and gnosticism are practically the same thing, no biggie...' it's just ridiculous,

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Kevan was in season one, and he was at the council meeting in this episode IIRC.

ah thank you! i guess I wasn't paying as close attention as I thought I was

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This is the first episode that really makes me wonder if it's even possible to pull the story off in a cohesive fashion. I loved almost every individual scene, but pieced together, they felt like less than the sum of the parts. If/when we get to FFC/DWD, it can be a real mess.

Here's what I loved:

1. Tywin/Arya. Even though I saw/heard it before from the promos, in context, "Anyone can be killed." was positively chilling.

2. The hint of a smile on Arya's face when she looked up at Jaqen. Arya's character arc goes to a very dark place, and this was done perfectly.

3. Brienne/Catelyn. That was... perfect. So subtle, so beautiful.

4. Rickon sullenly smashing nuts. It was such a small touch, and nicely done.

5. Tyrion. It kind of goes without saying, but PD is all kinds of awesome.

6. The tension between Irri and Doreah, and the Dothraki in general with "civilized" life in Qarth. It humanized them.

What I didn't like:

1. Stannis. Not the actor, but the character changes. Where the producers are going out of their way to make Cersei more likeable (a good change, in my opinion), they're taking away Stannis' one redeeming quality: his absolute devotion to law and justice. Stannis is rigid and harsh, but also fair and just; we don't see that on the TV version, and his character is far more shallow as a result. "Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him to be the true King. The same could even be said of the Northmen and Rob Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are." That quote meant so much to the character, and its absence weakens him greatly. Without it, you're left to wonder what Davos sees in him in the first place.

2. The aforementioned issues with pacing and editing.

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Also Loras randomly killing other soldiers probably wouldn't have been taken so well by other people, how would he escape after that. what happens to margery etc.. Wheras when Brienne did it made more sense

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2. did I hear Jaqen H'ghar say "The Red God"?? so are they combining 2 gods into one now? maybe its just a personal nitpick but how can you do that? the gods in these books aren't some paper-doll gods that can be switched around with no accord, one of the reasons why we love these books so much is that GRRM has everything corned down, including the religious and spiritual side of the ASOIAF universe, each God/belief has their own system and philosophy behind it, to switch them around or combine them would negate the motivations and beliefs behind the followers of each respective God/system, thats like saying: 'nihilism and gnosticism are practically the same thing, no biggie...' it's just ridiculous,

As mentioned several times in the thread, this was almost word-for-word from the books.

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I miss Jaime. And Sansa. And Joff and the Hound. Not so much a complaint because they only have so much time but I still like what I like.

I miss the Hound so much, it's painful... :crying:

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