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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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how would Ramsay get to the iron islands and pose as an ironman?

Gosh, that’s easy: teleportation. We’ve already seen it happening, a lot. Watch how Cat and Littlefinger flit about in no time at all. No reason for Ramsey not to use teleportation, what with all the very best people doing it and him such an up-and-coming social-climber.

As for disguises, that too is easy. Just look at how the decidedly olive-complected Talissa claims to be a Volantene, who all looked like true-blooded Valyrians with that tell-tale Targaryen look. With disguises of that calibre, surely Ramsey would have no trouble posing as someone twice his age with a disfiguring jaw scar that reknit the bones.

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

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I definitely agree with this. I can't say I dislike this season because it has been amazing at times but I feel that they are just diverging from the books way too far this season compared to last season. I hope they pull it back a little closer as we get further in the season but I really doubt it will!

Yeah, it is fair to say that the TV series is Game of Thrones based on the GRRM books at this point. At this point, I think I'm just going to accept it and move on with enjoying the show. It's still fantastic and excellently cast!

No problem with the dragon theft, but wish the horde wasn't down to about five people. I think the show change will make the hall of the undying better.

Questions: Did LF recognize Arya? Is Talisa perhaps a spy for Lannisters a this point?

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I want to have Sibell Kekili (shae) agent!!!!.... he must be a master negotiator, she is in the main titles and did nothing, opposing to Osha, Jaqen, Luwin... I wonder

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I loved this episode. The sack of winter fell was something I was not expecting to happen so quickly; but I am glad they stuck to the book and kept the whole scene between Theon and Bran, and Theon gathering everyone to hear Bran say he yielded to Theon. The actor who plays Master Luwin really nailed the character, and gave a powerful performance this episode. It will be a heart renting scene when Luwin dies next season. The way he stared at Theon was perfect.

I was okay with the change of Rodrik being beheaded by Theon; it makes the character arc of Theon way more dramatic and harsh. That beheading was brutal! The way they changed the escape of Bran and Co. to having Osha sleep with Theon and sneak out was also a nice change. It just streamlines things.

There seemed to be a lot of tweaks and changes from the books in this episode. Cat and Brienne are already at Robb' camp before he returns betrothed to Jeyne. In my opinion, it doesn't matter to much seeing as how we were never introduced to Riverrun; and this way we get to see Cat reminding Robb that he can't fall for another woman because he's still promised to a Frey. It's a smart way to remind the non-book reading audience so when the RW happens it will be more intense. One thing I don't quite understand yet is why we have yet to get Jeyne's proper name and house yet. Why the secrecy?

The scenes in King's Landing were brilliant. The riots were not as large scale as I imagined when I read the book but that's understandable because its a TV show. Tyrion was great as usual. Finally, we get to see The Hound save Sansa.

I am not sure how they are planning to handle Jon's storyline. So basically he chased after Ygritte a little bit and now he's completely lost from Qhorin? That doesn't really make much sense. In the book he releases Ygritte and they just meet up again when he has to kill Qhorin. It seems they are streamlining this a bit to keep Ygritte on screen more this season. Does this mean she is going to take him directly to Mance? Are they going to cut out Jon having to kill Qhorin? That wouldn't make much sense. I was kind of disappointed we didn't get to hear "You know nothing Jon Snow" tonight lol.

So wtf is happening in Dany's world? I understand showing her demand ships from one of the Thirteen, but who stole her dragons? Where is the show going with this change? It's quite a divergence from the book and the only possible answer I can think of is the Warlocks stole her dragons to get her to come to The House of the Undying.

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Really missing the fact that they haven't even mentioned that Jon is a warg, or any of the other Starks children for that matter. Seems somewhat critical to Jons character development and story line.

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I sooooo loved this episode! It kept me rapt the entire time. I love/hate Theon. I understand how he feels he needs to redeem himself but Winterfell?? Ugh, those scenes were great. The beheading was hard to watch yet amazing and that final kick he dealt to knock it off......*shivers*

Osha is a scheming little one to trick Theon, I was so happy that they showed Bran and Rickon leaving safe, too (and shaggy dog and summer!) I think there is now the possibility that they will meet up with Meera and Jojen on the road north.

What else was there....I cant wait to get home from class and re-watch it :D

The riot was awesome! Joffrey's little squeals heheheehe

I was so scared watching Sansa about to get raped, oh how I love thee, Hound.

My favorite scene was watching Ser Amory fall dead right in front of Tywin, fucking epic Jaqen!

Not sure how to feel about Dany's dead guards and stolen dragons....obviously they're being taken to the Palace of Dust so...some revenge comin up!

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The Good :

-Any scenes with Arya and/or Tywin

-Dragon snatching. Was unexpected and promises great outcome (it totally makes sense and c'mon it's not like GRRM isn't fond of cheap end of chapter cliffhangers either)

-Opening scene in Winterfell. I was not expecting that at all. Poor Rodrik :/

-Roose mentionning his bastard. I litterally gasped. (My bf was like "why would that make you gasp" and i was all "aaah..I wish I could warn you...")

-Prince Theon. Alfie Allen really really nails the part. I really can't tell if I'm supposed to hate him or give him a big hug.

-The Riot. "And now I have struck a king !" . As always, Tyrion delivers. (It could've been a lot more hectic though, it just seemed like two or three people were moving around and the guy was just shaking his camera around to give the impression of chaos)

-The Hound kicking ass.

The Bad :

-Littlefinger and Cat and their teleporting powers.

-No Jorah :/

-Not enough direwolves

The Ugly:

-Jon and Ygritte cuddle scene... Ugh... They're forcing this romance on us the worst possible way imaginable.

-Robb and "Talisa". Worst thing this season.

The Puzzling :

-Is Ramsay already in Winterfell ? (I think so)

-Did Littlefinger really recognize Arya (I think so)

-Did Pyat Pree steal the dragons ? (possibly)

-More Quaithe !

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I sooooo loved this episode! It kept me rapt the entire time. I love/hate Theon. I understand how he feels he needs to redeem himself but Winterfell?? Ugh, those scenes were great. The beheading was hard to watch yet amazing and that final kick he dealt to knock it off......*shivers*

Osha is a scheming little one to trick Theon, I was so happy that they showed Bran and Rickon leaving safe, too (and shaggy dog and summer!) I think there is now the possibility that they will meet up with Meera and Jojen on the road north.

What else was there....I cant wait to get home from class and re-watch it :D

The riot was awesome! Joffrey's little squeals heheheehe

I was so scared watching Sansa about to get raped, oh how I love thee, Hound.

My favorite scene was watching Ser Amory fall dead right in front of Tywin, fucking epic Jaqen!

Not sure how to feel about Dany's dead guards and stolen dragons....obviously they're being taken to the Palace of Dust so...some revenge comin up!

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and this way we get to see Cat reminding Robb that he can't fall for another woman because he's still promised to a Frey. It's a smart way to remind the non-book reading audience so when the RW happens it will be more intense. One thing I don't quite understand yet is why we have yet to get Jeyne's proper name and house yet. Why the secrecy?

Just a guess here, but perhaps the writers have tweaked the Jeyne Westerling story to make her a second spy ( along with Bolton )but she becomes sympathetic with the Starks, falls for Robb, then her house sets the Red Wedding in motion. Cuts out a few extra characters gets us to the same place. Easy for non-book readers to follow. Just a thought

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

Didn't Roose say that they had gotten word from White Harbor and the Dreadfort too. Maybe Theon sent ravens to boast about his conquest?

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Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest.

Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

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The Ugly:

-Jon and Ygritte cuddle scene... Ugh... They're forcing this romance on us the worst possible way imaginable.

-Robb and "Talisa". Worst thing this season.

Don't really understand the complaints with Jon and Ygritte. The books forced the relationship on us as well. I actually find the show more believable in how Ygritte starts "warming" up to Jon. In the books, he let her go and that one act of kindness has her smitten with him (probably not the right word, since she doesn't act head over heels for him like a teenage girl, but her interest in Jon seems way more forced in the books than it does on the show). Here, we can actually see the kindling of that spark.

I agree with you in regards to Robb and Talisa though. I was hoping that since we never saw this romance, HBO could give it a breath of life. Instead, it's just completely unoriginal, and I feel Robb should act a little more like the child that he is, considering this is the first woman/girl he's trying to win over.

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Because he doesnt want her to tell Mance she saw men of the NW... I think Jon is lost as to what to do with her, but doesnt want to let her go.

I'm not quite sure where your confusion lies.

Why were they killing her in the first place? Two stated reasons:

1- Because they don't have enough food to feed her if they let her live.

2- Because if they let her go, she would run and alert Mance Rayder and his people of their presence and bring some Wildings back with her to kill em.

Why was he chasing her after he failed to kill her? Please see point 2.

Which then brings you to point 1 - still not enough food to surive. So back to why did he chase her - he all ready made the decision to not kill her when he intentionally missed the swing and he knows he can't keep them both alive. So he made the choice to let her live - to what end? To bring her to Quorin - well, we know what he will do. Dead Ygritte.

Bring her to Mance? Nope, can't do that because then not only have you let her live to get the info to the WIldlings but you've also given yourself and your nice sword up. Jon dead.

Bring her to the Wall? Not enough food. both dead.

So how does letting her live, then chasing her down then just falling asleep next to her make sense? It doesn't

Edited by Greywolf2375

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Mixed feelings about this episode.

What I liked:

- Theon taking over Winterfell

- The riot at King's Landing- very emotional and tense scene. The Hound to the rescue! Could have done with more Joffrey slapping though.

- Bolton's Bastard!!

- Dany possibly showing a hint of Targaryen madness- claiming her "birthright", delusional about the difficulties involved in taking the iron throne, and expecting everyone's help, despite a very logical argument from the Spice King that it's a bad investment

What I didn't like (after reflection mostly this one scene):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

This. Coming from a huge book-Jon fan, this whole scene was terrible. Why did Qhorin and company leave him so far behind? Did Jon's sword miss her neck? I doubt it, but if he missed on purpose, he obviously chose to let her go. Except then he chases her because he can't make up his mind. Come on Jon, either kill her or let her go! This makes him look like a complete moron because he is not thinking anything through, since he obviously can't return to Qhorin with Ygritte alive and in tow. The whole time he was chasing her was precious time that could have been used elsewhere. And he and the rangers lost each other?? Seriously?

The only explanation I can think of is that they are not going to have Jon kill Qhorin. I hope this isn't the case because it's significant for his character development. But this might be crossing the line to have a protagonist do this on TV.

Things I'm not sure about:

- Robb and Talisa/Jeyne. I'm not really sure how that will play out but I'm reserving judgment.

- Stealing Dragons. Quite a big change obviously, but I suppose it makes her storyline more interesting, and as one of the most major characters, I'm ok with giving her more to do so she has more screen time.

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Don't really understand the complaints with Jon and Ygritte. The books forced the relationship on us as well. I actually find the show more believable in how Ygritte starts "warming" up to Jon. In the books, he let her go and that one act of kindness has her smitten with him (probably not the right word, since she doesn't act head over heels for him like a teenage girl, but her interest in Jon seems way more forced in the books than it does on the show). Here, we can actually see the kindling of that spark.

The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

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Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

I may not have paid close enough attention, but I thought the sex scene was to get the shackles off of her ankles so that she could lead the escape.

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So, just one more thing about the scene that really has me shaking my head (and its not the dragon kidnapping scene; Dany needs to do something, it makes a certain kind of sense and I am willing to let that play out- it may work):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

And remember Ghost? What was he doing? Is Ghost really even here at this point? Was he in the back going, "Jesus... fuck me... all the running ... Jon she... she's just going to try to kill you in your sleep... I'm not chasing that...she's gotta be... what? Ten fifteen yards away at this point... I could turn an ankle and ... and he nearest hospital is, like 1,500 years away so... and I am NOT going back to Craster's nosireeBob... So, I'm just going to stay over here and wait to see how all this turns out- why don't you chase the redhead and I'll just watch ..."

And my favorite part was when they first capture Ygritte and Qhorin Half-hand is like, "Don't bother asking her any questions; she won't answer them..." And then they proceed to ask her questions and she answers every single one. Somebody has to be a better proof-reader.

Okay, seriously, why is he chasing her?

(and one final note: I think this may be one gigantic circumnavigation around Jon's orders to betray the Watch and stay with the wildings and make it so Half-hand actually THINKS Jon has gone over to the wildings. This may end up with Jon REALLY fighting Halfhand and REALLY being taken in by the wildings. If that is the case... then I think ... then I think it goes from being "Nitpicking" to "Oh, this is just bad.")

Jesus, man, chill out

He chases her because he didn't LET her go. He just didn't KILL her. She's still a wilding who can give away their position if she goes free.

It's a freaking conundrum for him. It's called drama and building tension. Eventually he will probably HAVE to let her go, for the reasons you said. But it's a difficult decision between honor/loyalty and not wanting to kill a women. It's basically a small sample of his ENTIRE plot for book three. I think it's perfect

Yes, it's a change from the book, but deal with it. It's not huge, it works for TV and it's fun

Also, she did not answer every question, basically didn't answer the most important one. WHY are the wildlings gathering there?

Edited by axels15

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Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

She needed to be free. That way she wasn't locked up under guard

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