The Silmarillion-Very Dark Story

[Isis]

Another good read for middle earth fact finding is "Unfinished Tales". Think of it as a book full of Tolkien's essays concerning middle earth.

It makes for a really poor bedtime story though. It's proven very difficult to drift off to sleep while listening to Turin being so gosh-darned BUSY. He is always doing something. He never chills out, plays with his dog, goes fishing... Always doing, that boy.

[The Marquis de Leech]

He is always doing something. He never chills out, plays with his dog, goes fishing...

Or sits around in a chair like his dad did... :devil:

[JorahsMarmot]

He is always doing something. He never chills out, plays with his dog, goes fishing... Always doing, that boy.

He found time to hookup with a girl

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Ok, been a Tolkien fan for many many years. Finally getting around to reading the Simarillion. My previous attempts seemed to founder on the heavy prose and names and such.

But darned, this is one dark story.

I was shocked when I got around to the Turin and Nienor. I mean killing one's best friend is one thing, but marrying and empregnating your sister!?!?! WOW.

Ok perhaps not to today's sensibilities, but we are talking about Mr. Tolkien writing this stuff back in the 20's -50's or so IIRC.

Ok, yes there have been such stories through history, maybe? perhaps the bible

Read the Children of Hurin. It's an expanded version of that. Christopher Tolkien pieced it together from his father's notes and stuff from the Unfinished Tales. It's as dark as the inside of a coffin on a moonless night. It or the Silmarillion are next to impossible to film. The Children of Hurin would induce suicide and the Silmarillion would only appeal to hardcore Tolkien fans like some of you good people and my father. He reads the Hobbit, the Trilogy, and the Silmarillion every spring/summer. He's even a member of the Tolkien Society.

[Sci-2]

Pfft, Elric's not dark, he just needs some damn paxil.

I think it depends on which books you read. Moorcock did laugh at Elric, sending him into the future inhabited by the Dancers and the End of Time in one story.

But Skrayling Tree presents a very different picture, and a literally very different Elric. I'd say of the Moorcock I read it's his best novel.

[sologdin]

roose--

that definition is a bit odd. most of the genre definitions in C&G give a list of examples. that definition has only two, and it backs off of them in different ways than you have. you aware of any "dark lord wins" fantasies? i can't recall any, to be honest--which makes the "dark fantasy" suibgenre a bit more hypothetical than actual.

believe the wizards were all maiar as well, like sauron, but i think they were lesser maiar or something like that, which explained the power difference compared to sauron. not sure, i dont remember it all very well. and i think for the good elves, maiar, and valar, they all survive in spirit or soul form in the halls of something or other?

right. five istari as maiar. is there authority for the proposition that there are lesser and greater maiar orders? i can't recall.

regarding the survival of elves:

They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father under the trees in Eldemar

[Arataniello]

He found time to hookup with a girl

Only because he stumbled across her at night (if you are referring to Nienor).

[Arataniello]

right. five istari as maiar. is there authority for the proposition that there are lesser and greater maiar orders? i can't recall.

There is only (ISTR) a reference to Sauron being in the beginning 'amongst the greatest of those who followed Aule'.

[naz]

If Beowulf or Hamlet can be filmed, then so can Children of Hurin. Hollywood is definitely full of shit, but not so much so that every thing produced has a happy ending.

Would it make a lot of money? Probably not. Would it cost a lot of money to make? Definitely. That's essentially why it won't be made, not because it's "unfilmable", whatever that means.

[sologdin]

the difficulty i'd have with it as a stand-alone film is that it requires hurin to be in the audience, and that would make sense only if the nirnaeth is filmed, which only makes sense if [going backward through the narrative to the ainulindale]--and also would only make sense if, after everyone dies, hurin then is released, and, after having watched the same turin film that we have, then stalks off to fuck up menegroth.

it's not unfilmable by any stretch, but i'd resist decontextualization.

[Marcus Cicero]

People who say Tolkien isn't dark are conflating 'dark' with 'gritty.' I'd say that while Tolkien isn't 'gritty,' he's definitely 'dark.' Someone like Abercrombie is both.

[Arataniello]

the difficulty i'd have with it as a stand-alone film is that it requires hurin to be in the audience, and that would make sense only if the nirnaeth is filmed, which only makes sense if [going backward through the narrative to the ainulindale]--and also would only make sense if, after everyone dies, hurin then is released, and, after having watched the same turin film that we have, then stalks off to fuck up menegroth.

it's not unfilmable by any stretch, but i'd resist decontextualization.

At a stretch, I could see most of the background needed for a film of any part of the Silmarillion to be provided by a prologue, in much the same way that the first LotR movie did. Admittedly it would have to be very fast, with lots of narration to explain what was going on.

[Ser Lepus]

Ok, been a Tolkien fan for many many years. Finally getting around to reading the Simarillion. My previous attempts seemed to founder on the heavy prose and names and such.

But darned, this is one dark story.

I was shocked when I got around to the Turin and Nienor. I mean killing one's best friend is one thing, but marrying and empregnating your sister!?!?! WOW.

Ok perhaps not to today's sensibilities, but we are talking about Mr. Tolkien writing this stuff back in the 20's -50's or so IIRC.

Ok, yes there have been such stories through history, maybe? perhaps the bible

He took Turin story from the Kalevala, from the tale of Kullervo son of Kalervo. That was a powerful story of the north european tradition, and Tolkien, being the uber-fan he was of said tradition, couldn't not use it.

The rise and fall of Morgoth , The death of Fingolfin the destruction of Numinor through due to the manipulations Morgoth's lacky Sauron. The wars of the second age? Dark and apocalyptic.

You have to take into account that Tolkien was a christian writer: He wrote his books to be compatible with the Bible. The old, heroic pagan world of gods and heroes crumble, but it's not a sad or dark story because Christ is going to be born and he will fix everything, and everything will be allright.

Humans seem to have received a bad deal in the Silmarillion, but in fact they aren't, they're special and different because Jesus is going to take them to Heaven when they die, while elves and Valars are trapped and have to wait to the end of the world while it becomes more and more petty, dark and corrupted.

By the way, if you read the Lost Tales, the elves try to make a comeback to Middle Earth, and ask the gods to push Tol Eressëa back to the Middle Earth coasts so they can invade, but the humans invade Eressëa instead, and slaughter the elves, who have to hide in caves and degenerate, becoming the medieval elves and sidhes. Tol Eressëa is, in fact, what we today know as British Isles!. So you see, the story is way, way, way darker than you think if you have read only the Silmarillion...but it doesn't matter because you know, christianity.

[Billy Quizboy]

There are other sources besides the bible? *gasp*

[Slurktan]

Originally Gil-galad, Cirdan, and Galadriel. Gil-galad gave his to Elrond, and Cirdan his to Gandalf.

Depends on the source. In LOTR, the three you mention get them. In Unfinished Tales, Gilgalad gets both Narya and Vilya. He gives Vilya to Elrond after the destruction of Eregion to create and sustain Imladris and entrusts Narya to Cirdan when marching to the Last Alliance.

I tend to go with UT for canon stuff as it is writtten for the most part post-LOTR.

As for filming the Silmarillion, I've said before I could see it done as a 5 part series: 1.Beren and Luthien 2&3. Children of Hurin 4. Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin 5. Earendil and the War of Wrath. And yes parts 2-4 would be incredibly depressing.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I tend to go with UT for canon stuff as it is writtten for the most part post-LOTR.

Disagree there. Unless it's a typo or clear mistake, stuff published in Tolkien's own lifetime trumps stuff published by Christopher after his death.

[The Marquis de Leech]

you aware of any "dark lord wins" fantasies?

Not novel-length ones, no, at least if you stick to fantasy (if you extend to sci-fi and allegory, Orwell would qualify). Lord Dunsany and Clark Ashton Smith both wrote short-stories where their (admittedly non-heroic) protagonists come to sticky ends at the hands of dark forces. China Mieville's Perdido Street Station might qualify too, since the protagonists end up fleeing the Government, but since the moths are defeated, that's another iffy case.

[Antonius Pius]

I'd go for Tolkien alive = canon before I'd take Christopher's version.

There are other sources besides the bible? *gasp*

Bet you didn't see that coming, did you?

[Gus]

I don't think the whole of silmarillion would turn out that great. Far too much opportunity to end up as very cheesy with the gods, lights and other things. On the other hand there a few of the stories would make excellent stand alone movies in the hands of the right director.

[Tongue Stuck to Wall]

The "audience" of Tolkien's narrative was and ever will be mortal humans. Hobbits, for example, are explained within the geographical, sociological and historical context of modern Western Europe. The predominant theme of the Elves is their gradual removal from a world increasingly falling under the sway of humanity. This is what makes the pathos of the Noldorian plight particularly dark and sad. The elves' downfall is not mitigated by their rebirth or commemoration within the immortal context, rather it's within the context of what what their loss to the mortal world means. Good on Finrod and Finarfin for walking together for eternity as brothers under the trees of Eldamar...for the mortal world, they are gone forever and their like will never again be seen until (accordingly) the end of days.