[Book Spoilers] EP301 Discussion

[TomBadgerlock]

Quite pleased with it. I don't think anything could have lived up to how highly I had it hyped in my mind, but it was quite good. I think they had way too much to get through, with too little time. I hope future episodes will be better paced.

Sam: The beginning was a bit annoying. And when the did the show establish that Sam was to take care of the ravens? And where did all the NW come from? I thought that was all relatively poorly done.

Jon: I thought Kit's dialogue was strange. His voice sounded different. Tormund was fucking amazing. Mance and Ygritte were solid. The scenes with them walking through the wildling camp were very good. The Giant was awesome.

Robb: Too fast paced. Introduction of Qyburn was interesting, at least. Good to see Roose getting more time on screen in preparation for You-Know-What. And the Karstack guy too.

Marg/Joff: Awesome. All there is to it. Marg was amazing, and their scene with Loras and Cersei later on was superb, especially with Joffrey being less of a cunt than usual and taking shots at Cersei. I like how they're establishing that Marg is going to be the hero of the common people. Ready for Cersei to take her down later on.

Tyrion: I was slightly let down by most of his scenes. Although, the one with Tywin was superb.

Dany: Most of this was brilliant. The Unsullied were great, the dragon(s?) were great, the slaver was great, Barristan was great. I'm not concerned by his early introduction. I just hope they give Emilia some decent scenes to show off her own acting rather than merely having Dany as the glue around which all the interesting things are held together.

Sansa: Yeah, not bad.

[irishking44]

If there is a mutiny among the watch later on in the season, it'll probably be absolutely nothing like what happened in the books. For one, none of the characters are there - they are all played by extras. So if there's a mutiny, it'll be a very generic one.

Who knows how Mormont will die, but I find it very unlikely that he'll have the exact same fate as he did in the book.

Grenn and Dalores Edd are still there

[Arrogant Bastard]

If there is a mutiny among the watch later on in the season, it'll probably be absolutely nothing like what happened in the books. For one, none of the characters are there - they are all played by extras. So if there's a mutiny, it'll be a very generic one.

Who knows how Mormont will die, but I find it very unlikely that he'll have the exact same fate as he did in the book.

To be fair, they weren't really that developed in teh book either (I assume by "none of the characters are there" you're referring to the mutineers). In fact, I can't even remember a single one's name besides Chett, and I'm pretty sure he dies before the mutiny. Spending time developing the mutiny is probably unnecessary, at least so far as devoting a whole scene to it.

[Words of Winter]

Was Joffrey getting high in the carriage?

No, in Europe, nobles would perfume a cloth and then hold it under their noses to cover the stentch from the sewage on the streets. That is what I think he is doing here.

[Watcher_inthe_Woods]

Very nice episode.

But, hey, was the episode dedicated for who? I mean the "In Memoriam" in the credits.

The actor that plays Ser Ilyn Payne is Wilko Johnson....and is still alive :) I think the in memoriam was for someone on the production team

[Rubberburner]

i honestly can't believe this hasn't been posted yet..

overall i liked this episode but.. i did have one major problem with it. the continual bastardization of Littlefinger's character bothers me to no end. one of the most shocking reveals in the entire book series was finding out he (and the queen of thornes) was responsible for joffrey's murder and sansa's escape from king's landing. her fear and suspicion of not knowing whether her correspondence could be a trap made it all the more intriguing. i understand the possibility that dontos will be minimized or left out entirely regarding her escape, but for littlefinger to just come out and say 'i will take you home' was just the opposite of what the 'real' LF would ever do regarding his various plans/ intrigues.

they did the same thing in the premiere episode in season 2... by having him directly insult the queen in front of her guards, which is just something that littlefinger would simply under no circumstances ever do. littlefinger is first and foremost, a snake. he plays his own games very subtlety that even the cunning tyrion lannister is unable to decipher his motivations for wanting a castle such as harrenhal, etc etc. in the show this character is much more in your face, confrontational, than the actual behind the scenes schemer LF actually is.

i understand they have to get airtime for both LF and sansa... but this is one of the biggest reveals in the entire book and right out of the gate it is just explained to us that littlefinger is working on her escape. i don't think this adds anything to the story- in fact takes away from the intrigue and mystery. bottom line, i just don't think the littlefinger from the books is well represented on this show and it's been apparent for some time now, i don't see him as someone who would risk his neck by mentioning his various plots/intentions publicly. he would operate via proxy and be a secret benefactor to sansa, as he is in the books and it makes sense.. as opposed to the show which makes him appear much less careful..reckless even.

also, if he knew about arya, why would he let her escape? especially when he was asked specifically by the lannisters to locate her. if this had actually happened in the books, he would have either turned her in to the lannisters to gain favor or attempted to smuggle her back to Cat, or kidnapped her himself to be used in some larger political play.. what he would not have done, is ignore it, especially when any of the alternatives lead to his direct benefit or to the one he loves...it just makes no sense at all.

[SerWest]

I just can't wait to see Iwan Rheon...

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with freak....

[Justin Danford]

i honestly can't believe this hasn't been posted yet..

overall i liked this episode but.. i did have one major problem with it. the continual bastardization of Littlefinger's character bothers me to no end. one of the most shocking reveals in the entire book series was finding out he (and the queen of thornes) was responsible for joffrey's murder and sansa's escape from king's landing. her fear and suspicion of not knowing whether her correspondence could be a trap made it all the more intriguing. i understand the possibility that dontos will be minimized or left out entirely regarding her escape, but for littlefinger to just come out and say 'i will take you home' was just the opposite of what the 'real' LF would ever do regarding his various plans/ intrigues.

strongly agree, finding out he was behind Dontos and was orchestrating a huge plan was very very rewarding... and now trashed by the show

[greatgeek]

I didn't realize who Qyburn was until reading these posts. Really, the old guy at Harrenhall? I guess his role is going to be completely different from the books. Or he magically bumps into Jaime later on and accompanies him to king's landing.

IIRC they meet at Harrenhall.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Yeah, I did enjoy most of the episode and like where most of it is headed, but you're right about Littlefinger.

The reveal that he was behind Ser Dontos the entire time was a shocker, especially since he was gone for a good deal of the book and then re-appears. I'm not sure why they've decided to abandon this reveal and just have him spell it out to her and take away the surprise. Part of it has to be because they didn't use Ser Dontos at all in season 2 really adn backed themselves into a corner, but still, they could have come up with something better. And Littlefinger is such an obvious sleazeball on the show I doubt anyone believes he intends to take Sansa home, whereas in the books I actually did believe Ser Dontos--George kept the interactions going between Dontos and Sansa for practically a book and a half.

[tito5601]

i know promos dont always tell the whole story but if anyone thought the premiere was slow paced i dont think itll stay that way for long :P

[winterstood]

strongly agree, finding out he was behind Dontos and was orchestrating a huge plan was very very rewarding... and now trashed by the show

I blame HBO. If they had fully committed to the vision - contractually - with MONEY - 15 episodes a season and many, many millions of dollars more an episode. The writers/producers would've had the luxury of being able to more closely follow the book. HBO grosses half a billion a month - it's gross that they won't commit a hundred million+ a year to true art like GOT.

[Godfrey]

What do you think would of happened between Ser Bronn and Ser Meryn and whoever the other kingsguard was? boros blunt?

Bronn might be a good sellsword but trying to kill 2 armored kinguards?

Good episode in my opnion though.

If Tyrion isn't the heir to Casterly Rock who would be the heir after Tywin dies? since Jaime is in the kingsguard and Cersei is the queen.

[Rubberburner]

i dunno, it just really bothers me that they have basically taken the character most singularly responsible for the chaos and turmoil of Westeros throughout the books, prominently featured him, made his motivations much easier to understand and in many ways seem nonsensical. this is a dangerous man... and he just doesn't come off that way in the show.

i mean just seeing the scheming tyrion and cersei battle each other to see who can better bribe the Kettleblacks only for it to be later revealed that they are in littlefinger's employ.. it just makes him all the more cunning and dangerous and i just think the show has failed in a major way to capture that...and continues to do so.

[Golden Lion]

Yeah, I did enjoy most of the episode and like where most of it is headed, but you're right about Littlefinger.

The reveal that he was behind Ser Dontos the entire time was a shocker, especially since he was gone for a good deal of the book and then re-appears. I'm not sure why they've decided to abandon this reveal and just have him spell it out to her and take away the surprise. Part of it has to be because they didn't use Ser Dontos at all in season 2 really adn backed themselves into a corner, but still, they could have come up with something better. And Littlefinger is such an obvious sleazeball on the show I doubt anyone believes he intends to take Sansa home, whereas in the books I actually did believe Ser Dontos--George kept the interactions going between Dontos and Sansa for practically a book and a half.

Well I imagine they need to give the actor something to do. Why farm out a role for Dontos when LF could just do it? Not to mention teleporting LF from last season works a lot better to convince sansa. it's just one of the many things that work in the book but not on screen, like barristan's disguise.

I have this nagging feeling that Tywin is going to hang shae instead of sleep with her, because of how show!shae is, and they'll set this up as the motivation for killing Tywin.

[Golden Lion]

If Tyrion isn't the heir to Casterly Rock who would be the heir after Tywin dies? since Jaime is in the kingsguard and Cersei is the queen.

Kevan, Tywin's brother.

[TomBadgerlock]

I loved the discussion between Tyrion and Bronn.

"I'm a sell sword. I sell my sword. I don't lone it out to friends as a favour"

"How much?"

"Double"

"Double!"

"I'm a knight now, knights are worth double"

"I don't even know how much I'm paying you now"

"Which means you can afford it".

Fantastic!

[Golden Lion]

What do you think would of happened between Ser Bronn and Ser Meryn and whoever the other kingsguard was? boros blunt?

Bronn might be a good sellsword but trying to kill 2 armored kinguards?

Why not? He killed an armoured knight in the Eyrie and the current kingsguard aren't at a top fighting level because most of them are there for their allegiances to various people rather than their fighting skills. I mean Pod killed one of them for god sake.

[sillent]

Oh god, I really hope you're wrong about Tywin hanging Shae instead of Tyrion. That would be horribleeee, would kill the complexity in that scene that was so brilliant.

Loved how the Sansa & Shae scene was a nod to GRRM and how he would sit by the docks and come up with stories about where each ship was coming from and where it was going as child.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Well I imagine they need to give the actor something to do. Why farm out a role for Dontos when LF could just do it? Not to mention teleporting LF from last season works a lot better to convince sansa. it's just one of the many things that work in the book but not on screen, like barristan's disguise.

I have this nagging feeling that Tywin is going to hang shae instead of sleep with her, because of how show!shae is, and they'll set this up as the motivation for killing Tywin.

I don't know, I feel like they've already given Littlefinger more than enough to do, especially last season. He was practically in every episode; out of all the non-POV characters, I think he's the one who should actually have less screen time than he's given. Still, aside from that, my main problem is that it ruins the big reveal that Littlefinger was behind gettign Sansa out of King's Landing all along (a plot thread developed all the way back in mid to early ACOK). Since they've excluded Ser Dontos I guess this makes sense and I only have a problem with it since I've read the books, but to me it's still disappointing.

Regarding Tywin, I hope they don't go that route, though it's possible. Tyrion finding the truth out about Tysha is more than enough motivation, unless they also change this part; either way, we probably won't find out until 2014.