Why does no one like Dany?

[rivergirl]

Really though, the major thing for me is that the books are full of little hints and instances showing her to be very, very undeserving of the Iron Throne.

A major part of deciding the rightful ruler is thinking about the chair itself. It's famously cold, hard and sucks to sit in. You have to be alert and prickly and never relax. Now, i just did a Kindle search of the first four books for the word "cushion". Out of 53 matches, 37 were Dany.

Iron Throne... Cushions. And that's basically what Dany thought in deciding to stay in Meereen. Iron Throne.... Cushions.

That chair has killed several people just by sitting there. It cut Aerys to shreds and Robert just didn't even sit in it- the Throne and what it does reflects the realm after each King's rule.

Aerys: The throne (the Seven Kingdoms) was bloody, and the King was all scabby and mad.

Robert: Did anyone even sit in it? Because i feel like he was too fat for it, and nobody else could have so i guess it just lay neglected (again, Westeros)

Tyrion, ADWD

"If Daenerys is no more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces"

Then there was the First World Problems Bench in AFFC, where Dany had her first experience of actually sitting on a chair and being Queen of something. She refused to sit on the Harpy's lap (somewhat like how her continued hatred for the "Usurpers Dogs" is going to get her nowhere in Westeros?) so she got a simple ebony bench. At first she noted that it was uncomfortable. Then she started shifting uncomfortably, a lot. Most of all when she had to do something difficult with Jorah. She later has her handmaids get her pillows. I mean, she can't sit on a bench without whinging about it, somehow i doubt she'll do well with a hard steely weapon of ass destruction.

Then, as has been covered, is the woman in Meereen who Dany said forfeited the right to her house. And "If i look back i am lost" well yeah, if you were to see yourself now back when you thought you were going to Westeros, yes, you are very lost indeed. Daenerys... listen to the things you are saying. Pay attention. Say them to yourself again and listen this time.

[Silverin]

Just like any other claimant to a throne in the series. Did Stannis stop pursuing the throne after he saw thousands of his men burn alive at Blackwater? Not at all. Did Robb agree to renounce his crown to stop the bloodshed in the Riverlands? Nope. It's the mentality of the high nobles.

When did I say I think they are better? This thread is about Dany.

The only reason I think Stannis is better is because he has Davos, who if Stannis listens to him pushes him into the right direcion (like going to help the NW save the Realm). Dany doesn't have a moral compass like him. She has yes-man Barristan, and tyrion would just worsen her, I hope she doesn'T listen to his "lets poison the wells" ideas.

I generally dislike characters who for their own glory are willing to sacrifice other peoples life. And I really dislike when they pretend to care, and they do it for the good of the realm, if you are ignorant about all the life you destroy be honest.

But this is not the reason I think she would be a bad ruler, this is just why I dislike her, and why I cannot see her as a good-hearted queen who cares about the people.

[David Selig]

Tyrion never really let Shae get in the way of ruling though, not to the same extent

He certainly dedicated more time on her than Dany on Daario, he angered his father and Cersei because of her (the two most powerful people on his side in this war and the source of all his power), he kept risking his life sneaking out to get to her mansion...

Sure Tyrion's a better politician, but in this specific case he was more deluded and risked everything to a much greater extend than Dany. And Daario could well turn out to be someone who stays loyal, unlike Shae.

[Cas Stark]

He certainly dedicated more time on her than Dany on Daario, he angered his father and Cersei because of her (the two most powerful people on his side in this war and the source of all his power), he kept risking his life sneaking out to get to her mansion...

Sure Tyrion's a better politician, but in this specific case he was more deluded and risked everything to a much greater extend than Dany. And Daario could well turn out to be someone who stays loyal, unlike Shae.

I don't think Daario will stay loyal, it would seem out of character, but that would be an interesting twist. However, Daario is the least of Dany's problems and why I have turned against her, she's just a bad ruler who turns toward cruelty much too easily, who has a messiah complex and who neglected and then chained up her dragons. I no longer see much to admire about her, good intentions are great, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with them. Robert Baratheon had good intentions too, but he was still a bad king, a bad husband and ultimately a bad friend.

However, I think that I am still SUPPOSED to be sympathetic to Dany as I am SUPPOSED to be sympathetic to Tyrion, even though he's a double murderer who has started taking out his anger on weaker people around him. But, GRRM has mostly lost me with both of these characters unless they do some serious redemption work in the next book.

[BloodyGoatHoat]

However, I think that I am still SUPPOSED to be sympathetic to Dany as I am SUPPOSED to be sympathetic to Tyrion, even though he's a double murderer who has started taking out his anger on weaker people around him. But, GRRM has mostly lost me with both of these characters unless they do some serious redemption work in the next book.

Well said. I completely agree. When I was still reading the books, I asked a friend who his favorite characters were at the end of book 5, and when he didn't mention Tyrion I inquired why. He said that Tyrion loses himself and ends up in a bad and annoying place (existentially speaking, though Essos seems crappy to me). I didn't believe him until I finished the existing novels. Tyrion might be redeemed by the end, but I don't really care if he is.

[Lord Godric]

Well, here's a brief list of the common complaints I've seen of Daenerys. Obviously this list isn't exhaustive, and not everyone is going to agree, but if you want to get inside the head of people who don't like her, it's a good jumping off point;

1. She's hopelessly indecisive in articulating whether she intends to 'fix' Slaver's Bay and the Essosi slave trade, or return to Westeros and rule there. This is currently resulting in a 'dog with two bones dilemma', where she's losing a lot of potential allies in Westeros (Dorne, Aegon and the Golden Company) because she hasn't left Meereen.
   
2. Speaking of Meereen, she's doing an absolutely awful job at the moment of administering it, which does not bode well for a potential Queenship of Westeros.
   
3. In regards to her abolitionism, she doesn't seem to fully understand the nature of the problem she's fighting, and why sacking a handful of cities isn't going to stop the Essossi slave trade.
   
4. The lack of understanding on how to end slavery is getting a huge amount of people killed.
   
5. The fact that she's unique amongst the major characters in having no other POV critically examine her means that the narrative will not emphasis some of the very tyrannical and bloodthirsty things that she does.
   
6. She's still too beholden to Viserys view of Westeros; and is rather naive in how much of a monster her father was.
   

Going along with that last point, besides the fact that she is naive about Westeros and her family, she also seems to have the same sense of "I am destined to rule Westeros" mentality that Viserys did. She never seems to care about earning the rule, she wants it because she's a Targaryen.

[WenchofTarth]

Yeah, I don't care who she has sex with, but the fact that her boy toy so easily distracts her from her duties as queen is a strike against her, as well the fact that she doesn't seem to see that the guy is untrustworthy, so, the affair itself is not the problem but its more evidence of her extremely bad judgement, her tendency to toward superficiality and her inability to keep focus on larger issues such as ruling and managing the government.

Got to say that all things considered Daario is more trustworthy then some of her other advisers. Hard to say for sure without getting into his head but if he wanted to be on what seems to be the winning side he should have turned his cloak with Brown Ben Plumm.

Though Dany does get too easily distracted by a "pretty" (heh) face.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I can relate to Dany the girl. Well-intentioned, emotional and everything. But Dany the ruler is something completely different. She is incompetent, moody, lazy, prone to rage, doesn't know whom to trust and whom not, unjust, biased and everything a ruler shouldn't be or shouldn't do. It's not her fault. She lacks the education any noble her age (or anybody remotely wealthy) would have in Westeros, she lacked mentors for her entire life, has a deeply disfunctional family and more psychological traumas than most psychologists would see in their entire career.

And that's the reason why I want her as far away from any position of authority as possible. A "learnng curve" of 30 years and ten million dead isn't something to be excused away with a kind heart.

all i read there is inexperience and some naivety from dany - which you would expect from a what, 15 year old girl? can't see any reason to hate her for that...

Precisely. It is what is to be expected from her. It is the last what a ruler should be.

Only free men in Astapor are allowed to wear tokars. Not all free men in Astapor are slavers. The fringe on the tokar proclaims a mans status, a fact that Dany knows, so you cam kinda tell who is a slaver. Dany decides to kill anyone wearing a tokar.

That scene always reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre . It fits to a t, even the age of 12 as a border.

They have completely different reasons to be there, but Dany, Joffrey and Ramsay are the top three candidates for "worst ruler ever" by a fair margin. I want something better for Westeros. Essos as well.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

whenever dany says "i am but a girl, naive" etc she is being coy. how are people not getting that?

Sometimes, during her inner monologues about Daario she refers to her self as a girl or the girl in her. At first she rejects girl in favor of queen, when she uses him as an escapism it's her excuse. Her pov is one of the most subjective, it will turn more objective the when she gets to Westeros and has to deal with antagonist pov councilors. Jorah filled the role to an extent and she realizes the loss after she boots him

[Mladen]

It's actually a funny thing that most people that have commented on this thread seems to have a similar one-dimensional view. ;)

Daenerys is credited to have all the nasty Targaryen features and her actions are seen as those of an adult. Though we also see a very troubled upbringing by the Beggar King and how see attracts men who want something of her, making her naturally paranoid. Her closest companion 'desires' her and all the others want her dead for who she is or for her dragons.

I just hope that all those people have misjudged her and she'll end up coming to the aid of those that fight for the living on the back of an immense Drogon. (the newly dubbed 'The Black Dread')

I have said that she can`t understand subtelties between good and bad, to distinguish someone not just as good or bad for her. She doesn`t play the game, she has dragons and she thinks that`s enough to rule Westeros. Well, it isn`t. And she had learnt that on hard way. Also, people judged Sansa for telling Ned`s plans to Cersei, or Cat for letting Jaime go. Normally, people will also judge Dany.

[Tagganaro]

I can relate to Dany the girl. Well-intentioned, emotional and everything. But Dany the ruler is something completely different. She is incompetent, moody, lazy, prone to rage, doesn't know whom to trust and whom not, unjust, biased and everything a ruler shouldn't be or shouldn't do. It's not her fault. She lacks the education any noble her age (or anybody remotely wealthy) would have in Westeros, she lacked mentors for her entire life, has a deeply disfunctional family and more psychological traumas than most psychologists would see in their entire career.

And that's the reason why I want her as far away from any position of authority as possible. A "learnng curve" of 30 years and ten million dead isn't something to be excused away with a kind heart.

This. I find a decent amount of Dany's arc to be rather compelling, and her as a character as well to be largely compelling. I really enjoyed her chapters in AGOT and ASOS, and while ACOK was more boring I could at least relate to her and root for her. That all changed for me in ADWD, watching her "rule" was an exercise in futility. And I mean I understand, she has no training, no mentorship, no wise counsel or wise council, etc. But at the same time, it's brutal to watch and read about. She shows little to no concern for any of the daily grind of leadership while constantly resorting to vague platitudes about her status as "Mhysa" to excuse her behavior. She ignores her dragons, pretty much ignores the entirety of her responsibility to rule while she goes about doing whatever it is she does (which is mainly mooning over Daario and feeling all bad about not being in Westeros).

She consistently applies "justice" in increasingly arbitrary ways, lets fits of rage control her decision-making process, stops going to court altogether like halfway through her POV chapters, and then ends up "losing" anyway (in the short-term at least) by agreeing to marry Hizdahr, only so she can then moon over Daario even more. It's annoying and not fun to read about it. Hopefully she can return to her basic conquering ways in TWOW and be more entertaining to me at least.

[Cas Stark]

She consistently applies "justice" in increasingly arbitrary ways, lets fits of rage control her decision-making process, stops going to court altogether like halfway through her POV chapters, and then ends up "losing" anyway (in the short-term at least) by agreeing to marry Hizdahr, only so she can then moon over Daario even more. It's annoying and not fun to read about it. Hopefully she can return to her basic conquering ways in TWOW and be more entertaining to me at least.

I am genuinely puzzled as to where her story is going or supposed to be going, I agree she is an arbitrary ruler, and as far as I can see she hasn't really improved her capabilities from Storm to Dance, if anything, she has gotten worse because she allows herself to resort to revenge type actions more and more easily. I find it hard to believe she is going to be turned into a 'bad guy'...but I can no longer see her in the same light I once did, torturing people's children to get info from them is a fairly bright line to cross over, even if the people are bad and slaveholders. So, I really don't know what the author sees that I don't see, because I no longer want her on the IT or ruling anything at all, I don't even think she's a safe allie for anyone at this point, too mercurial and easily moved to change her mind, also good grief, she's queen, why isn't she getting herself educated?!

[The Other Maiden]

I am genuinely puzzled as to where her story is going or supposed to be going, I agree she is an arbitrary ruler, and as far as I can see she hasn't really improved her capabilities from Storm to Dance, if anything, she has gotten worse because she allows herself to resort to revenge type actions more and more easily. I find it hard to believe she is going to be turned into a 'bad guy'...but I can no longer see her in the same light I once did, torturing people's children to get info from them is a fairly bright line to cross over, even if the people are bad and slaveholders. So, I really don't know what the author sees that I don't see, because I no longer want her on the IT or ruling anything at all, I don't even think she's a safe allie for anyone at this point, too mercurial and easily moved to change her mind, also good grief, she's queen, why isn't she getting herself educated?!

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Up to somewhere mid-ASOS I was completely on Dany's side and couldn't wait for her to come to Westeros and take what is hers with...you know how it goes. But after ADWD I honestly hope she stays as far away as humanly possible.

But here's the thing, if this were a more traditional type of fantasy that's exactly what I think would happen: a beautiful exiled princess births dragons, gets an army, abolishes slavery and restores the rightful dynasty back to power.

Problem is, said princess has an abysmal record of ruling anything (and no, the "she's just a young girl" excuse doesn't fly when you have three medieval fantasy equivalents of WMDs, an army of legendary soldiers and have sacked three major cities in the span of roughly a year; she decided to be a queen and at that point her age stopped being relevant; it was her job to educate herself and she continues to refuse to do so, so I'm not buying the lack of experience, she was well aware of her situation and she bears responsibility for the consequences), refuses to listen to her advisors, consistenly trusts the wrong people (the Green Grace is obviously the Harpy, come on) and has three fire breathing monsters she can't and refuses to learn to control.

Add to that the plan to invade a country with an army of foreign savages and I don't see how anyone in Westeros could see her as anything but what she is: not Aegon the Conqueror with breasts but Aerys II with dragons.

And from all that, exiled princess who overcomes adversity and raises an army, the Mother of Dragons and supposed Chosen One, a white savior in a land of one-dimensional exotic but savage people comes a total and awesome subversion of the Hero. I firmly believe Dany is on her way to becoming an antagonist (if not THE secondary antagonist right below the White Walkers on the totem pole) of the story.

Honestly that way I could at least go back to enjoying her chapters in a love-to-hate kind of way as opposed to not being able to care less about what happens to her as long as she stays as far away from any Starks as GRRM can keep her.

Tl;dr: Dany is Anakin, not Luke Skywalker

Plus I honestly can't see the point if this all ends with a Targaryen (and I include Jon and/or Aegon in this) on the Iron Throne ruling a united Seven Kingdoms.

Or I'm giving GRRM way too much credit and I'm about to be horribly disappointed whenever the remaining books come out.

Just my 2¢

[Lord Godric]

Really though, the major thing for me is that the books are full of little hints and instances showing her to be very, very undeserving of the Iron Throne.

A major part of deciding the rightful ruler is thinking about the chair itself. It's famously cold, hard and sucks to sit in. You have to be alert and prickly and never relax. Now, i just did a Kindle search of the first four books for the word "cushion". Out of 53 matches, 37 were Dany.

Iron Throne... Cushions. And that's basically what Dany thought in deciding to stay in Meereen. Iron Throne.... Cushions.

That chair has killed several people just by sitting there. It cut Aerys to shreds and Robert just didn't even sit in it- the Throne and what it does reflects the realm after each King's rule.

Aerys: The throne (the Seven Kingdoms) was bloody, and the King was all scabby and mad.

Robert: Did anyone even sit in it? Because i feel like he was too fat for it, and nobody else could have so i guess it just lay neglected (again, Westeros)

Then there was the First World Problems Bench in AFFC, where Dany had her first experience of actually sitting on a chair and being Queen of something. She refused to sit on the Harpy's lap (somewhat like how her continued hatred for the "Usurpers Dogs" is going to get her nowhere in Westeros?) so she got a simple ebony bench. At first she noted that it was uncomfortable. Then she started shifting uncomfortably, a lot. Most of all when she had to do something difficult with Jorah. She later has her handmaids get her pillows. I mean, she can't sit on a bench without whinging about it, somehow i doubt she'll do well with a hard steely weapon of ass destruction.

Then, as has been covered, is the woman in Meereen who Dany said forfeited the right to her house. And "If i look back i am lost" well yeah, if you were to see yourself now back when you thought you were going to Westeros, yes, you are very lost indeed. Daenerys... listen to the things you are saying. Pay attention. Say them to yourself again and listen this time.

This really is the most interesting analysis of Dany and her potential future rule I have ever seen, bravo my friend.

[Nictarion]

I'm relatively new to these forums but from what I've read it seems that no one really likes Dany. I know hew storyline is quite slow towards the end of the books but apart from that why does no one really like her character?? I love her character, not necessarily my most favourite character and by no means my only favourite but I can't find any love for her anywhere!

She has some hardcore fans around here. I am one, but it has become popular to hate on her for some reason. I can understand some people didn't like some of her chapters in ADWD as the first half of them were a little slow. I think her late chapters in that book were fantastic though. Not liking her storyline is one thing but the amount of hate she gets on this forum is ridiculous.

[Nictarion]

Because theres loads of trolls looking for some obscure ending where a non POV character who burns innocent people becomes the main storyline. Dany is the shit!!!

This might be the best post I've ever read.

[The Storm King]

cos she wasted time in slavers bay

[Nictarion]

The lord of bones disguised as Mance for one..... And didnt he plan on burning babies??

Also Mel would have burned Edric Storm if not for Davos.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Yet when Tyrion did the same kind of thing, only much more blatantly, with Shae, nearly everyone is still praising him as a genius politician (and it's not like he didn't make plenty of other blunders).

That's because Tyrion did a far, far better job ruling KL than Dany did in Meereen. Unlike Daenerys, Tyrion was able to save his city from going down the shitter. But it's not all Dany's fault though. She has the unfortunate position to be all by herself in a foreign land with an irrepressible, savage culture. And I don't think Tyrion ever let Shae affect his political machinations. The riskiest thing he did was make Shae a handmaiden, but it didn't really jeopardise King's Landing or the Seven Kingdoms as a whole.

I really don't care if Dany sleeps with Daario, in the same way I never cared about Tyrion sleeping with Shae. But Daenerys should know better than to trust a sellsword like Daario...

[StarkDragon]

Daario Daario Daario

his mustacha' like Mario,

two sexist knives that drive her Bazaar~io,

but his birth is too far low~

And I just couldn't give a shit~

Not even a tiny bit~

I am still waiting for Dany to surprise me, however.