[Book spoilers]Criticism ( the little things )

[Kittykatknits]

Couldn't agree more. Especially as most people who are labelled "book purists" aren't complaing about every little change, but things that do seem to detract from the story and do praise the elements that work well or changes that make sense given the format.

Yep. I hate getting told not to critique or just not to watch the show when I ultimately really enjoy the show, but there are some things i feel could be better about it.

Agree with both of you so much. I've been called this before despite the fact there are elements of the series I really enjoy. I think I'm one of the few that likes Shae in the show quite a bit from what I can tell actually. My big things are Talisa, the depiction of nudty/sex (and both of you know my feelings about that), and character alterations that are big enough that I feel it's not the same as what I know from the books. I'm at the point now where I no longer want to talk about Catelyn.

Yeah, this reflects a lot of what I'm feeling. Metaphorically, D+D have taken a beautiful car handled with care and just beat the shit out of it; riding it recklessly, not washing it, not replacing parts, etc.

I don't know if I'd agree with that writer that Tywin is a coward and not respected though.

How much of that thread did you read? The writer expands on his position quite a bit and had me rethinking Tywin. He added some nuance to the character that I hadn't noticed before.

This response perfectly illustrates why this scene (and the Ned Stark fight in season one) is deeply problematic for the single most important aspect of Jaime's characterization. You are exactly making critics' point for them. This should NOT be the way people view Jaime and his abilities if his storyline is to have any emotional resonance whatsoever.

I agree with this so much. Jaime was defined by his sword hand and Cersei. It's what made the loss so powerful and pushed his story forward through the rest of the series. I want to feel the same emotional impact I had with the books.

[SerMixalot]

I shan't sink to name-calling :P

Well you may be too good to do so, but I'm not! :)

[Mr Fixit]

So yes, it was a waste of time. The scene did not advance the plot, and was included at the expense of scenes that would have advanced the plot. Moreover, I would choose interesting dialogue (that would actually advance the plot) over a non-verbal scene any day.

Well, thank the Seven you're not the one in charge of this adaptation then! :cheers: It would be one infodump after another it seems.

[Joyful Union]

Couldn't agree more. Especially as most people who are labelled "book purists" aren't complaing about every little change, but things that do seem to detract from the story and do praise the elements that work well or changes that make sense given the format.

But in this case, that review was actually complaining about every little change, so it's a fairly apt description. He didnt have a single line of praise in the entire thing.

A lot of his criticism isn't even backed up, take this line for example

"Cersei is multidimensional, much more than in the TV series, despite what show-enthusiasts claim. You have to read a little more careful, but yeah, her dimensions are there"

I seriously don't understand how you can make this argument, especially since Cersei is pretty one note up until FfC. But Im willing to hear if he's got any evidence or argument to back this claim up. But he doesn't. He just stops at telling me that Cersei has more dimensions in the books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This post is about some scenes in the show which I felt bummed about, even if they are little things.

First one is the scene with Jamie getting his hand cut off. You can clearly see here that there is like half a second where Jamie looks at is hand and then goes, okay this is my cue to scream, and does so.

This can't really work in real life. Your hand gets cut, that message goes straight to your brain. You don't have to look at the damn thing. Also, screaming is INVOLUNTARY. It's a reaction. You don't get to think about it, it just happens.

I am really annoyed by this type of thing and it crops up ALL over the place in tv and movies. A good example would be the scene in the last Star wars film where general grievous elaborately flashes his lightsabers like two inches from Obi Wan's nose and the actor doesn't bat an eyelid. In reality, one would have an instant reaction to step back, jedi training or not I call B.S. Of course in reality that thing is CGI'd in and the actor has no idea what he's looking at so that's why.

I disagree here, as many others.

1. There is a moment of shock when you don't react at the pain because you're exactly that: in shock. When the whole idea finally sinks in, it's that you just react. It happens. Also, consider adrenaline as a factor during fights. In Jaime's case, I think he simply was in a "what the f" moment when he saw his hand cut, and it took him a second to realise what actually had happened.

2. Some people have "lag": I do. Many times I've touched hot stuff and it took me about two seconds to feel the pain and release whatever I was holding. Some other people is very resistant to pain.

[The Bear]

I thought Jaime's response was very realistic. A lot of amputees have phantom sensations in their lost limbs (like Jaime did later on) and that includes the moment where the limb is severed, if done fast and clean as Jaime's was. He didn't expect it and his body didn't feel it for half a heartbeart. This is why sometimes after death body parts can keep moving. The message to the brain has been distrupted. I agree with a lot of Cas Stark's points.

Tyrion's badassery in the battle of Blackwater was weird and made no sense whatsoever.

[PatrickStormborn]

Agree with both of you so much. I've been called this before despite the fact there are elements of the series I really enjoy. I think I'm one of the few that likes Shae in the show quite a bit from what I can tell actually. My big things are Talisa, the depiction of nudty/sex (and both of you know my feelings about that), and character alterations that are big enough that I feel it's not the same as what I know from the books. I'm at the point now where I no longer want to talk about Catelyn.

I agree with all of this. I like Show Shae and I love the friendship between her and Sansa (although I fear the writers making Shae turn on her like what happened with Doreah and Dany... ugh). But Talisa, the depiction of nudity/sex, and character alterations are all simply unforgivable.

The writers included Talisa, a sassy nurse who chafed at her position within society and gives advice to Robb. But they re-wrote Catelyn, a woman who chafed at her position within society and gave advice to the men around her. So when I look at Talisa in the show, I see a female character who fits all the ingredients for being "strong" but without challenging men in any way... if that makes sense? A large number of readers hate Catelyn, probably because - as she notes herself - "all I have done is speak the truth. Are men so fragile they cannot bear to hear it?"

Talisa has some of Cat's basic traits (that have pretty much been taken from Cat herself), but she's been watered down so that she doesn't make (male) viewers feel uncomfortable or challenge their views and perceptions. In the first episode she told Robb that he was being too harsh with Catelyn ("She's your mother") but... she didn't really do anything. Could you imagine if that was Book!Cat and Ned? She'd tell him the truth, regardless of whether he would be able to handle it.

How much of that thread did you read? The writer expands on his position quite a bit and had me rethinking Tywin. He added some nuance to the character that I hadn't noticed before.

I agree with this so much. Jaime was defined by his sword hand and Cersei. It's what made the loss so powerful and pushed his story forward through the rest of the series. I want to feel the same emotional impact I had with the books.

Again - agreed. The Tywin point was really interesting and not something I'd ever thought about.

Well, thank the Seven you're not the one in charge of this adaptation then! :cheers: It would be one infodump after another it seems.

If you equate "plot advancement" with "infodump" then maybe it's good that the series includes such dreadful filler. Maybe viewers like you are D&D's intended target audience. I hope you enjoy the show... Hopefully none of your favourite scenes will be cut so that D&D can include nine minutes of filler throughout the episode (2 minutes of musical chairs and 7 minutes of Tyrion).

I'm not going to pretend I could make the TV show better or write a good script etc... But yeah, I do think I (or, really, anyone else) could have found a better use for that seven minutes of screentime. Seven minutes is more than enough time to include two scenes. We could have got another Jon scene (he's leaving Mance's camp next week so there's a lot of wasted opportunity there), or an extra few lines in Arya's scene to establish what's going on, or a Sansa scene showing her friendship with Margaery, etc. None of those scenes would have been "infodumps", but they would have been interesting to watch and actually advance the plot.

[Miodrag]

But in this case, that review was actually complaining about every little change, so it's a fairly apt description. He didnt have a single line of praise in the entire thing.

A lot of his criticism isn't even backed up, take this line for example

"Cersei is multidimensional, much more than in the TV series, despite what show-enthusiasts claim. You have to read a little more careful, but yeah, her dimensions are there"

I seriously don't understand how you can make this argument, especially since Cersei is pretty one note up until FfC. But Im willing to hear if he's got any evidence or argument to back this claim up. But he doesn't. He just stops at telling me that Cersei has more dimensions in the books.

When Tyrion informs her that Stannis went after Renly, she’s so relieved that she even dances with Tyrion – and she delivers one of the funniest lines in the series, something like: “I can’t believe Robert was the one Baratheon with a brain!” When Stannis informs the world about twincest, she panics until Tyrion calms her. She constantly asks Tyrion “What’s our father doing in Harenhall, why isn’t he here to protect us?” When “chatting” with Sansa at the party during the Battle of the Blackwater, she tells the stories from her and Jaime’s childhood, like the one when Jaime got the sword and she didn’t, and it’s clear she’s still furious about that. And than, there’s this line to Sansa, line that I terribly missed in the show: “Believe me, the Starks will have no joy from the Lannisters’ demise” (or something to that effect, I don’t have the book with me at the moment).

This is just from the tip of my head, but I guess it’s enough to show that: 1) though preserving the image of a power-figure, she often feels fear and frustration; 2) she was deeply wounded long ago, when she had to face her gender’s social limitations, and it pretty much explains her inner angle (not necessarily a conscience one) in the affair with Jaime: he’s like a trophy for her, their affair is her way to conquer the world of men that she’s forbidden to even enter; 3) she never, absolutely never, forgets to deal with her enemies, and Sansa is a one, or at least she represents one.

On TV, only her relation with Joffrey is somewhat deeper than in the novels – and it wasn’t done for her sake, but in the name of Joffrey, because in the show he’s more prominent, while in the books he was a second-their, or even a third-their character (and I think he should’ve stayed like that, so that other characters can be better fleshed-out, but OK, this deviation is at least understandable on some levels, so I’m not really complaining). On the other hand, Cersei’s relations with Tyrion and Jaime were much, much richer in the novels. And those relations are the foundations for Cersei we get to know intimately in AFFC and ADWD. And what an intimacy is that: her “walk of shame” is a jewel of a chapter, a literary triumph that commands a reader to feel both anger and sympathy toward a person that is literally going through hell of her own doing.

I find ACOK to be often underrated among readership, and Cersei in ACOK especially. Lena’s performance is OK, and TV Cersei is a rather interesting character, but she was even more layered in the novels, starting with ACOK.

And, had I put all the above in my essay, it would’ve been even longer than it is, and it already was a long one. That’s why I omitted some explanations, which in certain cases was probably a mistake.

[Kittykatknits]

I agree with all of this. I like Show Shae and I love the friendship between her and Sansa (although I fear the writers making Shae turn on her like what happened with Doreah and Dany... ugh). But Talisa, the depiction of nudity/sex, and character alterations are all simply unforgivable.

The writers included Talisa, a sassy nurse who chafed at her position within society and gives advice to Robb. But they re-wrote Catelyn, a woman who chafed at her position within society and gave advice to the men around her. So when I look at Talisa in the show, I see a female character who fits all the ingredients for being "strong" but without challenging men in any way... if that makes sense? A large number of readers hate Catelyn, probably because - as she notes herself - "all I have done is speak the truth. Are men so fragile they cannot bear to hear it?"

Talisa has some of Cat's basic traits (that have pretty much been taken from Cat herself), but she's been watered down so that she doesn't make (male) viewers feel uncomfortable or challenge their views and perceptions. In the first episode she told Robb that he was being too harsh with Catelyn ("She's your mother") but... she didn't really do anything. Could you imagine if that was Book!Cat and Ned? She'd tell him the truth, regardless of whether he would be able to handle it.

Yes! This is why I didn't like her back story (noble woman runs away because slavey is bad!). It paints her as someone good yet in a completely non-threatening way. She can make a sassy comment to Robb about what he plans to do after the war but it's presented in a non-threatening manner. Catelyn, in the books, asks why not peace and questions the futility of their vengeance yet was dismissed for this viewpoint - largely because of her gender. Worse, they took this out of the show completely.

Talisa breaks the rule and we get no explanation why. At this point, I don't think we will.

As to Shae, I love her friendship with Sansa too. I wasn't sure what to think during their first scene together but I've really grown to enjoy it.

ETA:

"Cersei is multidimensional, much more than in the TV series, despite what show-enthusiasts claim. You have to read a little more careful, but yeah, her dimensions are there"

I seriously don't understand how you can make this argument, especially since Cersei is pretty one note up until FfC. But Im willing to hear if he's got any evidence or argument to back this claim up. But he doesn't. He just stops at telling me that Cersei has more dimensions in the books.

Actually, many arguments are made that Cersei is more multi-dimensional before Feast. We get to see her through several POVs which fleshes her out in many ways. Her relationship with her family and Tyrion is more complex, we got hints of her mixed feelings regarding Sansa, Ned helped us see her as something to feel empathy for, and so on. Feast gave us Maggy the Frog and paranoia. She's much closer to the wicked queen trope in Feast.

[Theda Baratheon]

Oh god, I hate Talisa; I really, really do. What a badly written, uninteresting and annoying as hell cliche of a character.

[Currawong]

I understand from a TV series perspective why they had to change the Jeyne plotline, because Robb had to be much more on screen for TV than he was 'on page' in the book, where of course he is not a POV character. Having him simply head off to the Crag and then arrive back with this woman out of the blue just would not have worked for TV audiences, no matter how much explanation / exposition they put in. For that reason, they had to come up with something that made more sense on-screen, and allowed audiences to get to know Robb better and also the woman he ends up marrying. So I don't object to the idea of getting rid of Book Jeyne and coming up with someone else for TV story purposes.

My objections to Talisa are therefore not that she has replaced Jeyne, but that she is not a believable alternative for Jeyne. When even strong and well-armed Brienne was always wary of the possibility of rape, the idea of a single pretty woman nurse surviving un-raped in the middle of an army is extremely implausible, because I don't for one moment believe that the ordinary men in Robb's army are any more 'noble' about the treatment of women than in any other Westeros army. The cliche of 'grieving patient falls in love with pretty nurse' may work in many other stories, but not in the context of Robb and his army. Mind you, I didn't like Book Jeyne or her plotline either - I'm afraid that when Robb returned with her and his story about 'saving her honour', was the moment I lost any sympathy for him. TBH, I was never especially invested in Book Robb as a character anyway, and for me as a reader, his marriage to Jeyne just made me shrug and say: 'Well, as a king, or a wannabe king, you ought to know better.' Sorry GRRM, but if I was supposed to be somehow impressed with his Stark sense of honour, it didn't work for me.

[The Mondrian Oak]

I agree with what has already been said about Talisa and the risk of her being raped not having been taken into consideration by the writers, but I have a question: doesn't that also count for the Silent Sisters? I've never heard anyone complaining about the lack of realism of their not being raped; is that because they're nurses? Because that would also apply to Talisa. Or is it because they are "nuns"? Because I think that would not be too great an obstacle, expecially for northmen, who worship different gods. Any ideas?

[Tadco26]

Some of the silent sisters were raped. It's discussed in Briennes chapters.

http://awoiaf.wester.../Silent_Sisters

Traveling to Duskendale at the beginning of her quest Brienne comes across a band of silent sisters, she asks them if they have seen her sister but they shake their heads. ^[8]

Later Brienne, Ser Illifer and Ser Creighton Longbough come across some poor fellows marching to King’s Landing. The poor fellows tell them that even silent sisters have been molested. ^{[8] [11]} Ser Crayton remarks that a man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister, even to lay hands upon one. ^[

[Kittykatknits]

I agree with what has already been said about Talisa and the risk of her being raped not having been taken into consideration by the writers, but I have a question: doesn't that also count for the Silent Sisters? I've never heard anyone complaining about the lack of realism of their not being raped; is that because they're nurses? Because that would also apply to Talisa. Or is it because they are "nuns"? Because I think that would not be too great an obstacle, expecially for northmen, who worship different gods. Any ideas?

Actually, that's part of the realism of the books. Silent Sisters and Septas both were supposed to be off-limits. But, they are raped (we learn about it in Clash IIRC) and Septa Mordane was killed in KL. Both events are not "supposed" to happen yet did.

Edit: Ninja'd by Tadco26. I knew there was a quote about this somewhere.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Edit: double post

[The Mondrian Oak]

Great (as far as consistency is concerned,of course!). Then I really do not know what to say about the Talisa matter. The only thing that comes into my mind is that maybe she was not travelling alone. I recall her being with someone when she was writing the letter. But yes, this is a weak explanation.

[WhiteGuts]

The only thing Book!Cat ever did was voicing her concerns, but otherwise she didn't threaten anyone, and certainly not Robb, the Blackfish, not even Edmure. She wasn't always right either.

" she's been watered down so that she doesn't make (male) viewers feel uncomfortable or challenge their views and perceptions" I'm sorry but this is bullshit. She was re-written because they needed to make room for Robb. It's not about sexism...

[Kittykatknits]

The only thing Book!Cat ever did was voicing her concerns, but otherwise she didn't threaten anyone, and certainly not Robb, the Blackfish, not even Edmure. She wasn't always right either.

" she's been watered down so that she doesn't make (male) viewers feel uncomfortable or challenge their views and perceptions" I'm sorry but this is bullshit. She was re-written because they needed to make room for Robb. It's not about sexism...

So a female character was watered down in order to make a male character look better. Yeah, that totally can't be called sexist in any way whatsoever.

[Where Boars Glow]

I agree with all of this. I like Show Shae and I love the friendship between her and Sansa (although I fear the writers making Shae turn on her like what happened with Doreah and Dany... ugh). But Talisa, the depiction of nudity/sex, and character alterations are all simply unforgivable.

The writers included Talisa, a sassy nurse who chafed at her position within society and gives advice to Robb. But they re-wrote Catelyn, a woman who chafed at her position within society and gave advice to the men around her. So when I look at Talisa in the show, I see a female character who fits all the ingredients for being "strong" but without challenging men in any way... if that makes sense? A large number of readers hate Catelyn, probably because - as she notes herself - "all I have done is speak the truth. Are men so fragile they cannot bear to hear it?"

Talisa has some of Cat's basic traits (that have pretty much been taken from Cat herself), but she's been watered down so that she doesn't make (male) viewers feel uncomfortable or challenge their views and perceptions. In the first episode she told Robb that he was being too harsh with Catelyn ("She's your mother") but... she didn't really do anything. Could you imagine if that was Book!Cat and Ned? She'd tell him the truth, regardless of whether he would be able to handle it.

Again - agreed. The Tywin point was really interesting and not something I'd ever thought about.

If you equate "plot advancement" with "infodump" then maybe it's good that the series includes such dreadful filler. Maybe viewers like you are D&D's intended target audience. I hope you enjoy the show... Hopefully none of your favourite scenes will be cut so that D&D can include nine minutes of filler throughout the episode (2 minutes of musical chairs and 7 minutes of Tyrion).

I'm not going to pretend I could make the TV show better or write a good script etc... But yeah, I do think I (or, really, anyone else) could have found a better use for that seven minutes of screentime. Seven minutes is more than enough time to include two scenes. We could have got another Jon scene (he's leaving Mance's camp next week so there's a lot of wasted opportunity there), or an extra few lines in Arya's scene to establish what's going on, or a Sansa scene showing her friendship with Margaery, etc. None of those scenes would have been "infodumps", but they would have been interesting to watch and actually advance the plot.

I also think they have done a good job of playing up the relationship of Shae and Tyrion more....as well as making Tyrion more likable which will really kick that betrayal into overdrive :)

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

So a female character was watered down in order to make a male character look better. Yeah, that totally can't be called sexist in any way whatsoever.

Not because Robb is a man. Because he is the most important person in the North. If it was Sansa as Queen of the North in Robb's place the same thing would have happened.