FOOTBALL XLIV - Mansours, Khelaifis, and Rybolovlevs,... oh my!

[Corvinus85]

OK, so a bunch of times I've heard the guys at ESPN complaining about the penalty kicks system, saying that it a flawed way to determine the winner. Now they keep saying that "some people argues that..." though I have never heard anyone else complain about it. I mean, what other system can you implement to get a winner from a game that has lasted more than 120 min, where players are ready to collapse?

[lessthanluke]

Of course its a flawed way to end the game. I have never heard anyone argue any different. It's just the way it is.

[mormont]

OK, so a bunch of times I've heard the guys at ESPN complaining about the penalty kicks system, saying that it a flawed way to determine the winner. Now they keep saying that "some people argues that..." though I have never heard anyone else complain about it. I mean, what other system can you implement to get a winner from a game that has lasted more than 120 min, where players are ready to collapse?

Various suggestions have been put forward: one would be that the winner would be determined statistically before the game (eg the team with most goals scored in the competition so far wins if there is a draw after extra time), last goal counts double, additional period of extra time with fewer players, 'one-on-ones' rather than pens (attacker gets the ball in the centre circle and has to beat the goalie), even a coin toss.

Ultimately it's a case of penalties being the least-bad option.

[Jon AS]

OK, so a bunch of times I've heard the guys at ESPN complaining about the penalty kicks system, saying that it a flawed way to determine the winner. Now they keep saying that "some people argues that..." though I have never heard anyone else complain about it. I mean, what other system can you implement to get a winner from a game that has lasted more than 120 min, where players are ready to collapse?

In addition to what mormont said, it used to be the case that you simply replayed the game (that's still done in English FA Cup games, I think), which is mostly unfeasible in this day and age (was that ever used for World Cups or other big international tournaments, anyway? I only recall it happening in UEFA competitions at the moment).

[mormont]

Replays are still used in some competitions. But they're not a complete solution, as replays are often drawn too: the format for a drawn replay is just the same, extra time then pens.

[Jon AS]

Aw, I had this idea of having a World Cup final every week for a year or something. Nobody would care about the ultimate winner in the end.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

Scoring from penalties is a skill.It is not a lottrey like most suggest .I think there should be a golden goal rule after 120 mins for another 15 mins and then to the penalties.

[polishgenius]

It's true that Italy have some big game nous that a lot of other teams won't have. The problems I have with the claim that you're unquestionably top four is, well, two things: your midfield is class, but limited in some ways.

Pirlo's still got the pass on him but his age is beginning to really show and therefore your midfield has to be set up to protect him. There was a reason why Spain dominated more and more as the game went on. In a full tournament in that heat where you play even more games and with him a year older, this is gonna be An Issue.

Also, your strength in depth really, really sucks. Your first team is, indeed, up there with almost anyone but the moment subs and replacements come into play you're basically a lame duck. This tournament alone has shown that.

Germany have to answer some questions about their nous in the big games, obviously. But with Bayern and Dortmund's successes now and with all their best players coming into what most would consider their prime, I think you still have to put them firmly second. And Euro 2004 was the last major tournament they didn't make at least the semi-finals, so they obviously have some tournament knack.

Plus, you don't win games on paper, but you also don't rank teams purely on how they play against each other. Italy may have Germany's number in competitive games (and I can see how that works with the current team in the matchup of styles) but who'd be more likely to beat Brazil, Argentina, France? I wouldn't say Italy at this point. Also yes you're both winning your qualifying groups comfortably, but you should be, and their stats are way better than yours.

As I say, France are the ones that have impressed me since the Euros. They don't have the huge-hype names in there, really, but they've got a lot of quality, enormous strength in depth and variety (unlike Germany, Brazil and Spain where a lot of the players are variations on a theme) and, in Pogba, a genuinely great player on his way (so this will be a big season for him before the WC). They've gone toe-to-toe with Spain twice in the group and unlucky to come away with only a point from two games, and generally look like a tough nut to crack. Even Ribery appears to have sorted his attitude out. For once, I hope they keep it together in the main tournament.

[Corvinus85]

Various suggestions have been put forward: one would be that the winner would be determined statistically before the game (eg the team with most goals scored in the competition so far wins if there is a draw after extra time), last goal counts double, additional period of extra time with fewer players, 'one-on-ones' rather than pens (attacker gets the ball in the centre circle and has to beat the goalie), even a coin toss.

Ultimately it's a case of penalties being the least-bad option.

Yep, it is by far the least-bad option

[Xray the Enforcer]

"some people argues that..."

Ha. Did they really say those exact words? Because that phrase is anathema in journalism (something ESPN still swears it does, despite all of the evidence to the contrary -- up to and including recently firing all of their actual journalists and analysts) and I hope that Deadspin or the like take a few more potshots at the lazy sonsofbitches. Seriously, be on the lookout for wherever all of those numbers guys go (FoxSports, NBCSports, etc) and then pay more attention to that network. That's the one that will be doing interesting analysis, not those shitbirds at ESPN.

[MercenaryChef]

Ha. Did they really say those exact words? Because that phrase is anathema in journalism (something ESPN still swears it does, despite all of the evidence to the contrary -- up to and including recently firing all of their actual journalists and analysts) and I hope that Deadspin or the like take a few more potshots at the lazy sonsofbitches. Seriously, be on the lookout for wherever all of those numbers guys go (FoxSports, NBCSports, etc) and then pay more attention to that network. That's the one that will be doing interesting analysis, not those shitbirds at ESPN.

all very true. the 'journalism' at espn in regards to soccer is abhorrent.

[mormont]

So, Isco is off to Real Madrid. With Man City being unwilling to pay the price for Cavani, are they going to be able to get any of their marquee signing targets this summer?

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Ehhhh... if I'm rooting for a 3rd-party team, I would rather play Italy than Germany 100 times out of 100.

It's true that Italy have some big game nous that a lot of other teams won't have. The problems I have with the claim that you're unquestionably top four is, well, two things: your midfield is class, but limited in some ways.

Pirlo's still got the pass on him but his age is beginning to really show and therefore your midfield has to be set up to protect him. There was a reason why Spain dominated more and more as the game went on. In a full tournament in that heat where you play even more games and with him a year older, this is gonna be An Issue.

Also, your strength in depth really, really sucks. Your first team is, indeed, up there with almost anyone but the moment subs and replacements come into play you're basically a lame duck. This tournament alone has shown that.

Germany have to answer some questions about their nous in the big games, obviously. But with Bayern and Dortmund's successes now and with all their best players coming into what most would consider their prime, I think you still have to put them firmly second. And Euro 2004 was the last major tournament they didn't make at least the semi-finals, so they obviously have some tournament knack.

Plus, you don't win games on paper, but you also don't rank teams purely on how they play against each other. Italy may have Germany's number in competitive games (and I can see how that works with the current team in the matchup of styles) but who'd be more likely to beat Brazil, Argentina, France? I wouldn't say Italy at this point. Also yes you're both winning your qualifying groups comfortably, but you should be, and their stats are way better than yours.

As I say, France are the ones that have impressed me since the Euros. They don't have the huge-hype names in there, really, but they've got a lot of quality, enormous strength in depth and variety (unlike Germany, Brazil and Spain where a lot of the players are variations on a theme) and, in Pogba, a genuinely great player on his way (so this will be a big season for him before the WC). They've gone toe-to-toe with Spain twice in the group and unlucky to come away with only a point from two games, and generally look like a tough nut to crack. Even Ribery appears to have sorted his attitude out. For once, I hope they keep it together in the main tournament.

What it all comes down to in the end is performance in major competitions. Italy consitantly out perform almost every other team in big tournaments. Italy have the same chance at beating Brazil, Argentina and France as Germany and I dare say even Spain. Ital'y recent loss to Brazil was not as bad as teh scoreline suggest. I still maintain the first goal was offside, and the 4th (which fine even if it was close to offside) came off a counter attack after we had just came inches from eqaualizing.

The only recent tournament Italy did not do well in was WC 2010 and that was purley because Lippi was on nostalgia trip and decided to leave our best talent available either home or on the bench. For the life of me I still can't understand how he justified playing Iaquinta all three games when the guy could not kick the ball streight. Not to mention we had to start without Pirlo and lost Buffon early on.

Italy consitantly beats big teams and almost never loses in regulation during the later rounds of big tournaments. The only loss they have had in well over twenty years in the second round that weren't penalty shoot outs were 2002 (which everyone can agree was due to shenanigans, Spanish fans would also agree) and Spain last year in the final of the Euros after overcoming a strongly favored German side in style.

I know I'm a fanatic, and I live to watch Italy in big games, but I truely belive Italy will be able to beat anybody in teh upcoming World Cup. I also know Italy can tie three games against minnowers and go out the first round. But if they pass that first round, they are going deep and will only go out after some bad luck in penalties.

As good as Spain have been, luck has been on their side in their recent wins as they always progress to finals via penalties. It takes a bit of luck in addition to quality to win big torunaments, Italy had it in 2006 and France in 98, Spain have just had most of it latley.

I know Italy are hated by most, especially the British and American soccer press. It may be hard to swallow, but chances are we will kick your favorites teams ass.

[MercenaryChef]

So, Isco is off to Real Madrid. With Man City being unwilling to pay the price for Cavani, are they going to be able to get any of their marquee signing targets this summer?

we can only hope not. ;)

actually i still see them getting another striker. my guess is it will be mario gomez. losing tevez is a serious blow. aguero nees some help. i could see that poacher gomez being his aid.

[mormont]

Italy are no more hated by the British soccer press than any other country: which is to say, the English press are absolutely convinced they're all cheating foreigners and the rest of Britain don't particularly care as long as they beat the English.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Italy are consitantly hard to beat in the second round and Germany has never beat Italy in a major tournament.

A whole bunch Italian players got some big international tournamnet tournament experience..I think it gives Italy a leg up on Argentina as well.

You realize this is the exact same line of argumentation as "Lebron James/Peyton Manning has never won a championship, therefore he's not a winner and will never win a championship?"

You also used the same argument regarding Bayern Munich and Juventus.

[polishgenius]

It may be hard to swallow, but chances are we will kick your favorites teams ass.

I support Poland. Of course you will.

You seem to be taking this personally. I'm not saying that Italy are rubbish here, just that the claim that you've certainly proven you're top four is over the top. You might be, but you might not be. I certainly think it's a joke to suggest you've got as much of a chance at beating those three teams as Germany and Spain.

As for your much hyped big-tournament record, you've got the second most world cup titles, yeah, but both historically and recently Germany have a much better record of getting to the later stages than you (twelve times to at least the semis as opposed to eight, three of which are since 2000 as opposed to one). They've also been to the semis in the last two Euros, so again, that makes four major tournament semi finals in a row for them.

And you can't use the Brazil game as an example of why you're good despite losing and ignore that the Japan game exposes some major flaws despite winning. You have a Pirlo problem. When he's not there you struggle, and when teams manage to get in his face you struggle.

[mormont]

To be fair, the 'top four' claim isn't much of an exaggeration IMO. I'd rank Italy as being definitely top ten, maybe as high as fifth.

[baxus]

I know Italy are hated by most, especially the British and American soccer press. It may be hard to swallow, but chances are we will kick your favorites teams ass.

since my favourite team is serbia, you definitely won't even get to play us until after the world cup, let alone kick our ass ;)

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

You realize this is the exact same line of argumentation as "Lebron James/Peyton Manning has never won a championship, therefore he's not a winner and will never win a championship?"

You also used the same argument regarding Bayern Munich and Juventus.

That wasn't my agrument really. I'm sorry if it was conveyed that way. My point was if we just beat a team in a major tournament less than a year ago, we are definatley at least of teh same quality as them if not better. Our ranking should be the same or higher.

I support Poland. Of course you will.

You seem to be taking this personally. I'm not saying that Italy are rubbish here, just that the claim that you've certainly proven you're top four is over the top. You might be, but you might not be. I certainly think it's a joke to suggest you've got as much of a chance at beating those three teams as Germany and Spain.

As for your much hyped big-tournament record, you've got the second most world cup titles, yeah, but both historically and recently Germany have a much better record of getting to the later stages than you (twelve times to at least the semis as opposed to eight, three of which are since 2000 as opposed to one). They've also been to the semis in the last two Euros, so again, that makes four major tournament semi finals in a row for them.

And you can't use the Brazil game as an example of why you're good despite losing and ignore that the Japan game exposes some major flaws despite winning. You have a Pirlo problem. When he's not there you struggle, and when teams manage to get in his face you struggle.

since my favourite team is serbia, you definitely won't even get to play us until after the world cup, let alone kick our ass ;)

I'd actually be more worried to play Poland or Serbia as Italy usually play up to the competition and have a hard time with smaller tough teams. I think we'd get the result we need against those teams and no more. Where as Germany would make a specticle of winning 3 or 4 nil but then lose to the more technically sound teams such as Italy, Brazil and Spain.

The Japan game was an anomaly. They surprised us, got off to a great start and forced us to recover, which we did and I think it shows great character. Lets not forget they have an Italian coach who understands how Italian soccer works. They also got the help of an extra days rest and a very questionable penalty call which put us on tilt. What was the outcome in the end? Italy got the result. The Japan game actually helps my point of us being top 4. You want a brawl we can have a brawl, you want a technically sound counter attacking game like against Spain we can do that also.

We do not have a Pirlo problem, Pirlo is the central midfielder, when any team gets their midfield clogged they have a problem, see Spain yesterday. Next year we will have Veratti to deputize Pirlo. De Rossi is nothing to bat an eye at either.

I understand ranking teams is subjective. Do we use past torunamnets, current results or strength on paperto determine the bets team. ?(or FIFA 2013 for Xbox attributes :dunno: )

I think the current FIFA world rankings don't really work well. Taking friendlies into account doesn't work because teams like Italy experiment. So what I like to think about is the big show. What it's all about is winning your regional cup (Euros Copa America, Afircan Nations etc.) And winning the Worlc Cup. Obviously the Copa America and Euros have a stronger bearing on the rankings as those teams are usually more sucessful on the world stage. When it comes down to it, the top favoites to win the big show next year are Spain, Brazil, Italy, Germany and Argentina with France, Netherlands and England on the outside of that bracket. Since Italy recently beat Germany in a big game( and always does) and they just took the undiputed number one to the brink, it seems fairly obvious that they are top 4.