When is the right time to propose?

[Alester Florent]

Obviously there's a lot of nonsense spouted on the subject, from both sides of any discussion on the subject, occasionally backed up by alleged science, which makes any definitive answer difficult to come to. That's probably because there isn't one; it's an intensely personal thing. But anecdotal evidence isn't any more than that - it's great that some people know people who were together five minutes then got married and are still together 150 years later, and people who were living together for twenty years but got divorced on their way back from the church, and vice versa... but how do you know which example is applicable to your situation?

But if you want my honest opinion, three months seems like a terrifyingly short period of time after which to make such an important decision. It takes me longer than that to make decisions much less important. The question I would ask yourself is: what's the harm in waiting? Not forever, just for perhaps another 12-18 months to give your emotions time to settle down and to get a better holistic impression of your partner's character. Anyone can pretend to be anything for three months without much difficulty. People also tend to be much more forgiving in the early stages of a relationship.

If you're right and marrying her is a good idea, it'll still be a good idea next year. If you're wrong, then marrying her now would be a disaster. Leaving it a while gives you a better chance to assess whether it actually is a good plan.

[Lord Flashheart]

But...

[Minaku]

Seriously, sex before marriage or even masturbation seems like such a paltry thing compared to murder or theft or any of the big no-nos. Just do it. And remember, Christ forgives.

[Dynysia Khaleesi]

No Christian thinks it's okay, religiously, I would have thought? It's just that many get on with it anyway, coming for example to the conclusion for example that they're far more likely to get to the stage where they do marry someone if they don't only look for partners who will wait till marriage to have sex. Or, you know, just think as sins go, that's not one that will condemn them to hell.

I know of a priest (before he went to seminary)who lived with his wife before they got married. He was my late father in law. My mother in law even told me that it was a good idea for my husband and I to live together before we got married in case we found out we couldn't stand living together. My church tends to not beat people over the head and tell them what to do, they encourage us to use our brains and decide for ourselves what the right thing to do is.

[Angalin]

a man should do it only as a means to and end rather than doing it simply for the sake of pleasure.

Is the end not pleasurable? If it's not, I think you might be doing it wrong.

[Zar Lannister]

that last part Angalin quoted from LB there sounds terribly like what Stannis would do.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

I think you should propose immediately.

My card is in the mail. I market for the long game.

:lmao: :bowdown:

You may have more luck getting advice from a forum that largely shares your beliefs, then. Not many folk here have such views about "fornication" so 99% of the advice you'll get, while honest, is not going to be welcome.

That is very generous, intelligent, sagacious advice. Far more helpful than what I was

.

[Pinkie Baelish]

how do you eat it? with your hands????

You back off, Costanza.

[sologdin]

not really seeing the peremptory scriptural norm that prohibits fornication. there's lotsa aspirational language, of course, as well as prejudiced injunctions from persons condemned to be virgins by their own surliness, as well as plenty of bad carnal metaphors.

[Clueless Northman]

Well, this went north quick xD. But fornication in Apostolic faith means penetration, oral and anal. Masturbation is seen as a method of being able to keep your flesh under submission.

Dude, you know that fornication is a sin, right? Not as high and soul-damning as murder or raping your neighbour's wife, but still something God doesn't want you to do :P

People can say what they want, but that's pretty explicit in the Bible, with Onan.

So if some Christians begin to discard this, then I'd like to know why they don't discard other commandments - I mean, can you pick which ones you actually want to follow?

[sologdin]

is the onan anecdote a peremptory norm? and if it is peremptory, what exactly is the content of the prohibition, as opposed to the salacious underlying facts?

[Minaku]

Dude, you know that fornication is a sin, right? Not as high and soul-damning as murder or raping your neighbour's wife, but still something God doesn't want you to do :P

People can say what they want, but that's pretty explicit in the Bible, with Onan.

So if some Christians begin to discard this, then I'd like to know why they don't discard other commandments - I mean, can you pick which ones you actually want to follow?

Apparently they can, given the whole marriage debate.

[Roose Seal]

Yeah, isn't picking and choosing exactly what christians have been heavily criticized for for... quite some time now?

[Ormond]

People can say what they want, but that's pretty explicit in the Bible, with Onan.

So if some Christians begin to discard this, then I'd like to know why they don't discard other commandments - I mean, can you pick which ones you actually want to follow?

Heavens above, Onan is NOT the Bible passage you want to use as being against "fornication!!" In the Onan story, his brother has died and he is required to have sex with his brother's wife in order for her to get pregnant. Any resulting child will be "assigned" to his brother. This custom was actually a protection for the widow, because a childless widow would be socially in a much worse position in terms of her rights and privileges in ancient Israel than one with a child would.

In the story Onan practices coitus interruptus so that his sister-in-law will NOT become pregnant because he selfishly doesn't want to father a child that won't legally be "his", and that's what he is "struck dead" for.

It used to be common for some people to use the Onan story as an argument against masturbation, because the Biblical euphemism used for his act is "spilling one's seed", and so the idea is that a man deliberately ejaculating anywhere except within a woman's vagina would be wrong. But nobody can logically use this story as an argument against "fornication", because what Onan was supposed to be doing (having sex with his sister-in-law who was NOT his wife without any birth control) would be defined as "fornication" by modern Christians. So the Onan story is actually in favor of what we now call "fornication" in that particular narrow situation.

There are other Bible passages that can be used to condemn "fornication", but to try to use Onan for that just has no logic at all.

[sologdin]

In the story Onan practices coitus interruptus so that his sister-in-law will NOT become pregnant because he selfishly doesn't want to father a child that won't legally be "his", and that's what he is "struck dead" for.

serious question: is capital punishment imposed for the self-centered mens rea, or for disobeying the obligation to impregnate brother's widow, or for disobeying father, or for disobeying tribal leader, or for coitus interruptus, or for some other detail of which we take no cognizance because it is beneath our notice? the passage is beyond oblique to me.

that's the main problem for me with the extraction of a statute from a fact pattern that ends with imposition of criminal penalty. what exactly is the statute here?

[S John]

Seriously, sex before marriage or even masturbation seems like such a paltry thing compared to murder or theft or any of the big no-nos. Just do it. And remember, Christ forgives.

That is pretty much my stance too. If people want to wait for whatever reason, go ahead, I don't give a shit what other people do. But if pre-marital sex is all it takes to punch your ticket to hell then heaven must be pretty sparsely populated. If that is the worst thing you ever do in your life then you are in pretty damn good shape. Yours is a closet pretty much without skeletons.

Growing up Catholic and being dragged to mass every Sunday I heard exactly one fire and brimstone type homily the entire time... and it was, in fact, about the sinfulness of pre-marital sex. It was at my grandma's parish where we didn't normally go. I was like 11 or 12 at the time too, and even then I remember thinking, really dude? Of all things, this is what we're worrying about this morning? Plus, I mean, fuck man, I'm sitting here with my parents and my grandma. I already had to get up early to come against my will and now there's an awkward sex talk on top of it. Great.

I think the old celibate guy must have caught a glimpse of skin on late-night TV and flew into a sexually frustrated rage when he decided to put pen to paper for that little speech.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm Christian and I have no particular problem with pre-marital sex. Seems rational to take the car for a test drive before you commit to that car or that car commits to you.

[Kelli Fury]

Holy crap, you've been dating 4 months, she is 21, and you want to GET MARRIED???? My advice is don't, especially if you're super antidivorce. The less dissolving a marriage is an option the more important it is to go through a rigorous vetting process. You have enough self control to have your virginity- wait a year. If she's it, she'll still be around then.

[MercenaryChef]

Am I the only one who found Ormond's commentary arousing?

[Xray the Enforcer]

You have enough self control to have your virginity

Nope. He already admitted he had fornicated without benefit of clergy. But sometime in the not-too-distant-past, Jesus made it all better again so the OP could denigrate "lukewarm Christians" for their terrible sex-havin' ways. I seem to remember Jesus saying something about sins and casting stones...