Season 4 Roundup

[Arkash]

"Good. Tongue it is, then !"

[SeanF]

Perhaps Mord will get framed for Lysa's death.

[Napyura]

Perhaps Mord will get framed for Lysa's death.

sounds fine to me.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

What if they just have Sansa kill her aunt, as Lysa is trying to kill her....it'd be self defense and Littlefinger just comes up with random patsy #354. Or they could keep and use Dontos for the patsy....

The only thing that Sansa could kill is a giant made of cloth

[Arkash]

IIRC, D&D and everybody loved Mord's performance.

Using him instead of Marillion can definitly work !

[King of the Road]

It'd be nice to see Mord get some kind of a comeuppance after his treatment of this Eeyrie's prisoners. I'd like to see that, although I still think it'll end up being Dontos.

[Annara Snow]

I'm willing to cut the adaptation more slack because much of the criticism seems like a lot of armchair quarterbacking from people who don't work in TV, or from fans who are put out that their ship of choice and their favourites are underserved or that characters they loathe are depicted in a more positive light than they think the character deserves. (The resentment bubbling forth from the Tyrion haters and SanSan fans has been delicious.) It's hard to take a lot of it seriously, especially when many of the changes fans are whining about have to do with the realities of TV production or were dictated by production issues. (The SanSan fans are never going to get over Littlefinger getting to tell the story of Sandor's burns, even though it was a last-minute change the showrunners had no choice over.)

And really, one thing you're forgetting is that there's an informational asymmetry here. D&D know how the books end. You don't. They're therefore much better positioned to make judgment calls about what needs to be brought forward and what can safely be discarded, how the major POV characters still alive in the books should be written in view of the totality of their arcs. You're not.

Actually, the showrunners knew only the bare bones of the plot - and the identity of Jon's parents, one tidbit we know for sure GRRM made clear during their first meeting - before the sit-down they had with GRRM after season 3 had already gone into production, where he told them all the details about the future plotlines. And GRRM has recently criticized them for some of their decisions and talked about the 'butterfly effect' of some of them, like cutting out the characters of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, who are apparently meant to have important roles in the future books.

So, it looks completely possible that some of their decisions were in fact based on their own preferences and ideas, rather than any supposed knowledge about the future plotlines. They seem convinced that all that matters is getting to a certain end plot point, but that it doesn't matter if you entirely change the characterization of many of the characters, including major POV characters.

It's also quite probable that many of their decisions about changing things have been indeed stupid, since characters do matter in the story, not just the major plot points. It's also quite probable that the reasons for some of the changes were not their artistic vision, but concerns such as getting more T&A on the show, or having more stupid jokes that they think will go well with the audience, or getting more screentime for a popular character even if it means writing that character terribly and making them look much stupider and less mature than they are in the books (see Dany in season 2).

But I would love to know how, in your opinion, 'knowledge about how the series ends' has affected such changes as giving lots of screentime to Ros, changing Jeyne into Mary Sue Talisa, marginalizing Catelyn, completely re-writing Shae's character, turning Renly and Loras into gay stereotypes, giving Bronn a lot more screentime than many major characters, creating the above-mentioned, hugely popular "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?" storyline, making Jon look like an idiot in season 2, making Sansa look like an idiot in season 3, etc.

Personally, I loathe when characters are turned into stereotypes, whether those stereotypes are considered to be 'positive' or 'negative'. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters, but on TV he's much less interesting and less complex than in the books.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Actually, the showrunners knew only the bare bones of the plot - and the identity of Jon's parents, one tidbit we know for sure GRRM made clear during their first meeting - before the sit-down they had with GRRM after season 3 had already gone into production, where he told them all the details about the future plotlines. And GRRM has recently criticized them for some of their decisions and talked about the 'butterfly effect' of some of them, like cutting out the characters of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, who are apparently meant to have important roles in the future books.

So, it looks completely possible that some of their decisions were in fact based on their own preferences and ideas, rather than any supposed knowledge about the future plotlines. They seem convinced that all that matters is getting to a certain end plot point, but that it doesn't matter if you entirely change the characterization of many of the characters, including major POV characters.

It's also quite probable that many of their decisions about changing things have been indeed stupid, since characters do matter in the story, not just the major plot points. It's also quite probable that the reasons for some of the changes were not their artistic vision, but concerns such as getting more T&A on the show, or having more stupid jokes that they think will go well with the audience, or getting more screentime for a popular character even if it means writing that character terribly and making them look much stupider and less mature than they are in the books (see Dany in season 2).

But I would love to know how, in your opinion, 'knowledge about how the series ends' has affected such changes as giving lots of screentime to Ros, changing Jeyne into Mary Sue Talisa, marginalizing Catelyn, completely re-writing Shae's character, turning Renly and Loras into gay stereotypes, giving Bronn a lot more screentime than many major characters, creating the above-mentioned, hugely popular "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?" storyline, making Jon look like an idiot in season 2, making Sansa look like an idiot in season 3, etc.

Personally, I loathe when characters are turned into stereotypes, whether those stereotypes are considered to be 'positive' or 'negative'. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters, but on TV he's much less interesting and less complex than in the books.

But Sansa is an idiot from book one to book five and frankly a very useless character.

[Newstar]

Actually, the showrunners knew only the bare bones of the plot - and the identity of Jon's parents, one tidbit we know for sure GRRM made clear during their first meeting - before the sit-down they had with GRRM after season 3 had already gone into production, where he told them all the details about the future plotlines.

But it's been known for a while that D&D have known how the books end from the get-go, and in of itself, "bare bones" or not, that is an extremely significant informational asymmetry between the fans and D&D. I don't know why you're so keen to dismiss it, because even the "bare bones" about the Iron Throne's final occupant (if any), the endgames of the major POVs (as opposed to their individual story arcs, which were covered in the spring meeting), could dictate a lot of potential plot shortcuts.

I expect D&D knew the endgame (where everyone winds up) very early on, as they've confirmed they knew how the books end early on. What they didn't know is the vast plotty space in between point A (end of published books) and point B (endgame of ASOIAF). For example, suppose, oh, I dunno, D&D knew very early on that Rickon was going to be King in the North. That tells them something about how to write him, whether even to write him, etc. etc., but it's not super helpful for writing past ADWD. What does he get up to on Skagos? Does Davos rescue him? Does he come back to Winterfell riding Shaggydog with a cannibal army at his back? etc. etc. And yet, the mere knowledge of Rickon's endgame provides in of itself certain key information which would shape how his arc is written.

And GRRM has recently criticized them for some of their decisions and talked about the 'butterfly effect' of some of them, like cutting out the characters of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, who are apparently meant to have important roles in the future books.

He also got upset about Mago being killed off in Season 1, but Book Mago is eminently expendable and easily replaceable at this stage. I think the handwringing about the butterfly effect is overblown at this stage, frankly.

So, it looks completely possible that some of their decisions were in fact based on their own preferences and ideas, rather than any supposed knowledge about the future plotlines. They seem convinced that all that matters is getting to a certain end plot point, but that it doesn't matter if you entirely change the characterization of many of the characters, including major POV characters.

Again, without their knowledge, we won't know, will we? Beyond knowing that they knew the endgame early on and they learned more future plot details in terms of how to write post-ADWD arcs later on, we have no way of parsing what's a product of their knowledge of the endgame and what's a product of their own preferences and ideas, as you put it.

It's also quite probable that the reasons for some of the changes were not their artistic vision, but concerns such as getting more T&A on the show, or having more stupid jokes that they think will go well with the audience, or getting more screentime for a popular character even if it means writing that character terribly and making them look much stupider and less mature than they are in the books (see Dany in season 2).

Again, you don't know, do you? You're supposing a lot of things, and you're complaining about a lot of things, but since you lack 1) D&D's knowledge, 2) knowledge of behind the scenes issues which dictate certain changes, and 3) professional insight which would equip you to put yourself in D&D's shoes, you don't know anything about anything. You don't know anything, you only feel. In particular, you feel upset with the end product and desperate to find ways to pin your resentment on D&D. It's an understandable sentiment, given how attached some are to their particular vision of the books, but it's just that: a sentiment.

And I feel things, too. I have sentimental reactions. I have questions about a lot of things in the TV series, too, sure. However, because I know personally that I lack D&D's knowledge of the endgame, because I also know that I lack knowledge of TV production realities (not working in the field myself), and because I also know that I'm unaware of behind the scenes issues that might result in scenes or changes that I might not like, I know well enough to restrain myself before going off on a tirade about the supposed failings of something of which I am in many key ways utterly ignorant. Anything else is armchair quarterbacking, or, put it another way, arrogance.

But I would love to know how, in your opinion, 'knowledge about how the series ends' has affected such changes as giving lots of screentime to Ros, changing Jeyne into Mary Sue Talisa, marginalizing Catelyn, completely re-writing Shae's character, turning Renly and Loras into gay stereotypes, giving Bronn a lot more screentime than many major characters, creating the above-mentioned, hugely popular "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?" storyline, making Jon look like an idiot in season 2, making Sansa look like an idiot in season 3, etc.

As I said, the realities of TV production and production issues can also account for book changes. I wouldn't attribute (and nor have I attributed, which makes it a little frustrating that you've read my post so carelessly) all book changes to D&D's knowledge of the endgame. I merely pointed it out. However, I think your sentiments are clouding your objectivity on the matter, and it's difficult to look at things clearly when one is so emotionally attached to one's particular vision of the source material, so I'll refrain from going point by point to respond to your grievances, but it amuses me that you consider that Renly--he of the Rainbow Guard (scrapped from the show, if you'll recall, a strange move for a team eager to wallow in gay stereotypes as you suggest)--and Loras--he of the silver filigreed flowers on his armour--were not gay stereotypes in the books.

[ambi76]

Oh, GRRM is definitely guilty of the lol-gay-jokes treatment for Renly/Loras too (and 70% of readers were still to dense to get it) it's just that D&D really have dailed this up to eleven. Renly "I'll have her pregnant stat after the war" in the book, being physically repulsed by Marg on the show (Ahahahahah! Bryan even said he thought that was an awesome joke IIRC) Loras's only substantial contributions in season 3 being talking about wedding dresses and fucking a random "squire". I guess GRRM told D&D that Loras ends up as fashion designer in Lorath with his studio right beside the local male bath house at the end. I'm only half kidding. Because to be honest, I've finally come to believe GRRM when he says that as an old straight dude he has no fucking clue how to write gays (Jon Con sounds like a ten year old girl to me when thinking of Rhaegar) and so us fangirls better not expect anything that goes beyond innuendos either. Might be for the best.

[King of the Road]

And GRRM has recently criticized them for some of their decisions and talked about the 'butterfly effect' of some of them, like cutting out the characters of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, who are apparently meant to have important roles in the future books.

I said on another thread that what is important to GRRM, the creator of a series which he has worked on for decades, and what is important to the overall plot are likely to be two different things. Garlan hasn't been important, and Willas hasn't even featured, so I don't think their impact on the narrative is going to be terribly far reaching, or at least nothing that can't be given over to Loras/Margaery.

[Mr Fixit]

I said on another thread that what is important to GRRM, the creator of a series which he has worked on for decades, and what is important to the overall plot are likely to be two different things. Garlan hasn't been important, and Willas hasn't even featured, so I don't think their impact on the narrative is going to be terribly far reaching, or at least nothing that can't be given over to Loras/Margaery.

Exactly. Or to some cousins or trusted followers.

[ambi76]

Giving Loras and Margaery Willas and Garlan stuff tied to court is perfectly fine. There will be a problem though, when Garlan is at the Shield Islands, Loras on Dragonstone, Marg in the Maidenvault and Willas in Highgarden and all doing distinctive stuff in TWOW. Loras can't be in three places at once so something has to give. Distant Tyrell cousin(s) to the rescue, sure, though why not go with the actual book characters in the first place then? :dunno:

[Annara Snow]

but it amuses me that you consider that Renly--he of the Rainbow Guard (scrapped from the show, if you'll recall, a strange move for a team eager to wallow in gay stereotypes as you suggest)--and Loras--he of the silver filigreed flowers on his armour--were not gay stereotypes in the books.

Renly in the books is someone that everyone sees as similar to young Robert, he's charismatic, confident and arrogant and just happens to be gay. Although he's never been in a war and isn't a great fighter, he's not squeamish about tournaments and fighting. (It is funny that the School of Thrones parody version of Renly, the conceited popular secretly gay jock, feels closer to his book characterization than the show version does.) Loras may be a pretty boy, but he's also cocky, brave and passionate and kills people out of rage and grief over his lover's death. Jaime compares him to his own younger self. On the show, Loras is a sweet little kitten, and it's Brienne who does these killings, because she's big and masculine-looking "badass chick".

On the show, gay men have 'the tender hearts of women'; women with their tender hearts don't do things like order murders of children and innocent people (which is why show Cersei isn't responsible for almost anything, it's all Joffrey and she's so unhappy that she can't control him); big strong manly men don't cry (we can't have the Hound crying, can we, even though those are some of the most memorable moments in his arc); and big masculine women are more likely to indulge in violence because they're kind of like a man (so Brienne goes from being the most honorable 'true knight' who finds it difficult to kill, to someone who kills people without flinching from the word go).

Loras can't be in three places at once so something has to give.

Sure he can, look at Littlefinger! :devil:

[ambi76]

Sure he can, look at Littlefinger! :devil:

True dat. :laugh: It's not that I can't see D&D twisting the Tyrell plot into pretzels like: Give all the Willas stuff to Olenna and the Garlan stuff to Randyll, but then who the hells is given the stuff Randyll actually does? Getting rid of one of the older (younger, whatever) brothers could have worked but both is really weird.

[Mr Fixit]

On the show, Loras is a sweet little kitten, and it's Brienne who does these killings, because she's big and masculine-looking "badass chick".

It amazes me when people in their nerdrage miss the point so completely. Brienne a "badass chick"? Loras a "sweet little kitten"? "Big strong manly men don't cry"?

What on Earth are you talking about? Not Game of Thrones TV show, that's obvious.

[ambi76]

Sorry, but the "Loras is a sweet little gay kitten/puppy thing" is an actual quote from unsullied (interpretation of season 3 Loras, they were even a bit confused, because they didn't think Loras seemed like that in season 1) not from us nerd-ragers. Also enlighten us about the point if you please?

If it's "because of story-telling reasons" excuse me while I :rolleyes: .

[Padraig]

He also got upset about Mago being killed off in Season 1, but Book Mago is eminently expendable and easily replaceable at this stage.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I think saying that GRRM was "upset" or (as somebody else said) GRRM criticised D&D would be exaggerating GRRM's position. GRRM understands why D&D have done what they did. He might be concerned at the impact of some of the things but I don't believe he has ever said they shouldn't have done a particular thing. He might have done things differently if he was the showrunner but he has also said that he would probably do a few things differently if he was starting the books from scratch also. People will have different viewpoints on the adaptive process.

There will be a problem though, when Garlan is at the Shield Islands, Loras on Dragonstone, Marg in the Maidenvault and Willas in Highgarden and all doing distinctive stuff in TWOW.

This assumes that all 4 characters will be doing very important things in tWoW. Chances are, they wouldn't be.

GRRM told D&D that Mago would reappear in the series when they decided to kill him off. I'm sure he would have something more about the Tyrell siblings when D&D decided to halve their number if they were really important.

Certainly some of the characters are different in the TV series. Its hard to know why on a case by case better. I'd only be really concerned about that if I ever expected that the series would be as good as the books. But the books are too complicated, with too many characters for such a series to be made. It has done very well with what they have managed to cover though.

[ambi76]

This assumes that all 4 characters will be doing very important things in tWoW. Chances are, they wouldn't be.

Yes, Margaery probably just sits there awaiting trail and Loras just lies there fighting third degree burns on Dragonstone. They still can't be simultaneously doing whatever more important stuff at Highgarden and the Shield Islands, which GRRM said Willas and Garlan will do in TWOW. Yes, GRRM can be prissy about his babies, but I somehow doubt he would have said this, if the important stuff Garlan and Willas are doing is Garlan grinding his swords and Willas re-arranging the Highgarden library.

Since so far D&D don't seem to give a fuck about the Kingsguard and Loras "the heir" joining it would be really dumb, they can of course give Loras the future Garlan part, but then the Loras part has to be cut for good, which seems more and more likely to me the way they are going with this close-to-become-an-original character.

[Padraig]

Yes, GRRM can be prissy about his babies, but I somehow doubt he would have said this, if the important stuff Garlan and Willas are doing is Garlan grinding his swords and Willas re-arranging the Highgarden library.

I don't believe GRRM ever said Garlan and Willas will be doing "very important" stuff in tWoW. Somewhere on this site it is reported that GRRM said that D&D shot themselves in the foot by removing those characters. That's pure make-believe. He never said that.

Unless they turn into POV characters, Garlan and Willas wouldn't be doing very important stuff (and i'm pretty confident that they aren't turning into POV characters). People have a bad habit of misinterpreting or overblowing what GRRM meant. Although, I wouldn't use the word "prissy" either. GRRM might rue losing some characters in the series but when I have heard GRRM speak, he has a degree of realism about the TV series that should shame a lot of readers.

Since so far D&D don't seem to give a fuck about the Kingsguard and Loras "the heir" joining it would be really dumb, they can of course give Loras the future Garlan part, but then the Loras part has to be cut for good, which seems more and more likely to me the way they are going with this close-to-become-an-original character.

I'm not sure what Loras part has to be cut for good? The Dragonstone part? Even if he doesn't join the KG they could easily still do that.

To be honest, Loras isn't a major character in the books. He is a very interesting (but one of the less signicant) secondary characters. Unfortunately, secondary characters are likely to see scenes cut and the problem with Loras is that he lost most of his big scenes. Although, I wouldn't say events in S1-3 would stop him doing anything from the rest of the books, so I don't think his character has changed that much.