Ramsay Gimp Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 By that logic, Ramsay was protecting Theon :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 How many men did Robb give to the Wall? In the Walls moment of need it was Stannis who came to the rescue. Did you miss the part where Robb had been murdered? Yes, but when it comes to Tywin the justification can be pride alone. I can see why you think it's a strawman, I honestly do. But I know several posters who have done exactly that. I won't call any of them out because they can speak for themselves, but look at any Tywin discussion about the Targaryen children, Elia, and Tysha. Tywin is always defended by the logic "it was necessary to kill the children to ensure the new dynasty! It was pragmatic!" He's occasionally defended in regards to Tysha as "he's a Lord, that's within his rights!" And even Tywin himself defends the Elia criticism by saying "hey it wasn't me that done it, just the men I ordered to go slaughter the woman's children. My hands are soooo clean of blood." This is the kind of logic that allows the likes of Putin to rise so high..."Yeah, he's an asshole, but he's a STRONG asshole." The RW stopped the war in the Riverlands. But it replaced organized armies by bands of roaming brigands. And those who were doing the greater part of the gratuitous murdering, were left unchecked. And Tywin did nothing and less to put an end to the massacres. Looks like he wanted to do another "Rains of Castamere", but with the whole riverlands this time. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Did you miss the part where Robb had been murdered? How many men did Robb give the Wall while he was alive? And in the same timeframe was it more than the men Tywin sent to the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 How many men did Robb give the Wall while he was alive? And in the same timeframe was it more than the men Tywin sent to the Wall?Robb was planning on sending about 100 men to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 ^In exchange for Jon Snow being released from his vows. Let's say the whole thing. How many people have the Northern High Lords sent to the Wall since the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 How many men did Robb give the Wall while he was alive? And in the same timeframe was it more than the men Tywin sent to the Wall? Robb was fighting a war, and wasn't aware of the threat yet. Had he crossed the Neck, the situation would have been entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Robb was planning on sending about 100 men to the Wall. Only if the Watch did his bidding and released Jon Snow. How is that ant different to what Tywin was doing? However while Robb was alive we know that Tywin, in the same period, sent more men to the Wall than Robb did. So the pointless argument used a few pages ago that the Red Wedding was somehow bad for the Wall is proven false. Robb was fighting a war, and wasn't aware of the threat yet. Had he crossed the Neck, the situation would have been entirely different. So was the Crown and yet they were still able to send men to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 They sent prisoners and guys they wanted to get rid of. Who says that the North didnt do the sane thing? We just did not have POVs at CB during the episode of the war when Robb lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 ^Who says they did? It's up to the people claiming the RW was bad for the Wall to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The RW clearly didn't end the war as anyone who has read ADwD has seen. It also violates the social contract of Westeros. Guest right is taken seriously because once that vow is broken, it is back to the no rules anarchy of everyone vs everyone. The Freys just burne all their bridges in that act. @Mladen The Red Wedding is universally disliked in Westeros. The Freys? Not really. Certainly they're seen as untrustworthy, but they were seen as untrustworthy before the RW too. They aren't hated for doing it. And I find it hard to believe that in some 8,000 to 6,000 years of Westerosi history, no one had broken guest rights before. With that said... the RW will probably just lead to a revenge massare by Stark loyalists long term.Aren't hated for doing it? They are clearly universally hated for doing it, even in KL. Sparrows are calling for the crime of the RW to be punished, and when Corbray draws his sword in a parley he is called a "Frey." The name "Frey" has achieved the same status as "Blackfyre" in being a dirty household name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The RW clearly didn't end the war as anyone who has read ADwD has seen. The RW did end northern rebellion aka war and anyone who has read ADwD has seen aftermath of the war ....not war. Tywin and his coalition have won,problems that came after Tywin was killed are separate thing from rebellion that was crushed .... Sparrows,BWB and rest are just "The rats who will play while the cat's(Tywin) away" It also violates the social contract of Westeros. ...... it is back to the no rules anarchy of everyone vs everyone.... usurper and "his dogs" broke the social contract of Westeros by killing the King and almost his entire bloodline...."no rules anarchy" started at that moment but was kept in bay by their military power & savage way they dealt with resistance (IB rebellion) Half of Riverlands,Dorne,Iron Islands & a lot of Targ loyalists just waited for right time to show that usurper claim on throne means nothing to them....they all knew that Robert Baratheon was first and the last Baratheon who has sat on Iron Throne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The RW did end northern rebellion aka war and anyone who has read ADwD has seen aftermath of the war ....not war. Tywin and his coalition have won,problems that came after Tywin was killed are separate thing from rebellion that was crushed .... Sparrows,BWB and rest are just "The rats who will play while the cat's(Tywin) away" As long as Stannis lives, the war is not over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 @Fire Eater Um... nope. Certainly they want a Frey punished for it. It's not like they're calling for the extinction of the entire House. Corbray is called a Frey when he draws his sword, but one of the LD's is raising a Frey child and the Royces are related to the Freys. The only place the Freys are universally hated are the Riverlands and the North. I think Godric Borell says it best. The lord tore off another chunk of bread to swipe out his trencher. "The Freys were bringing the fat fool a bag of bones. Some call that courtesy, to bring a man his dead son's bones. Had it been my son, I would have returned the courtesy and thanked the Freys before I hanged them, but the fat man's too noble for that." Do they see it as treacherous? Yes. Do they like the RW? No. Would they go out killing Freys for it? Nope. The people that died weren't their sons, daughters, siblings etc. They're not as invested in it as you think. @melx Aerys broke it when he was burning Lords alive. And I seriously doubt the Iron Islands has any Targ loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 @melx Aerys broke it when he was burning Lords alive. And I seriously doubt the Iron Islands has any Targ loyalists. i never wrote that Iron Islands are Targ loyalist, just part of group alongside with Targ loyalist who hate usurper and "his dogs" Mad King had every right to kill lord Rickard whose southern ambition were aim against him as he had every right to kill his son Brandon who wanted to kill the prince .. . the way it was done was wrong but they were guilty : plot against king & threatening life of the prince were always crimes in any kingdom .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 They sent prisoners and guys they wanted to get rid of. Who says that the North didnt do the sane thing?We just did not have POVs at CB during the episode of the war when Robb lived. Varys and Tyrion wanted to send the gold cloaks deserters to the Wall. But Tywin ordered their knees to be broken instead.And the prisoners were sent while Ned was the Hand, if I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Defending Aerys II = Lost the debate. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 @melx The IB hate all mainlanders. Targs included. Only Balon hated the Baratheons. The Targs are also usurpers. He had no right to kill Rickard. Rickard hadn't done anything to him, but even if he did... what's his excuse for murdering the other high lords with Brandon and their fathers? What's his excuse for calling for Ned and Roberts heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Melx is obviously a troll, just stop feeding him than he will maybe stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melx Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 @melx The IB hate all mainlanders. Targs included. Only Balon hated the Baratheons. timeline please... Targs are history and i`m talking that usurper and "his dogs" were not loved by whole realm and that opposition to their rule through brute force was wide spread The Targs are also usurpers. The Targs are creators of the Realm not usurpers,you can not usurp something that does not exist... what's his excuse for murdering the other high lords with Brandon and their fathers? What's his excuse for calling for Ned and Roberts heads? there is none,after all he was the Mad King.... This is very important thing because Mad King as all characters in ASOIF has justification for some actions while for others there are none.... So we come to RW & Freys again: they were betrayed and had right on revenge but way of it was wrong. Tywin had his reasons for betraying Mad King but killing of Targs children was evil Ned was right to start war,but after seeing result of it was extermination of whole family(very thing he was fighting against) he had to serve every tie with people who did that....but he did not do it....and that can not be honorable & just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Nutella Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 So you suggest Ned should have defied Robert at KL aftee what happened to the children, risking a war for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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