Dating 22: Because everyone likes romantic hugs

[.H.]

Some people are just morons. Your friend sounds like a very nice guy, but he's a moron and he's allowing himself to be repeatedly mistreated and taken advantage of by this woman. Frankly, he should have been done with her when he found out how badly she had treated him the first time, but he didn't learn his lesson then, and he's probably not going to learn it now. Now, in fact, he's going to be tied to her for the next 18+ years by virtue of their shared child, and if you think she was a manipulative asshole before, just wait until that kid is born and she can leverage the one part of his life he doesn't absolutely hate against him to get what she wants.

You only really have two options here:

One, you can continue to let this guy vent his frustrations to you and continue to try to talk sense into him. This may or may not drive you insane as your friend passes up opportunity after opportunity to cut ties with her and instead opt for voluntarily subjecting himself to mistreatment.

Two, you can have an honest conversation with him, tell him how terrible she is one last time, encourage him to leave her and file for divorce, and then tell him that if he doesn't want to do that, you don't want to hear about how terrible she is and that topic is off limits. If that hurts or kills your friendship - so be it.

Frankly, I have a very low tolerance for this kind of stuff. If you have a problem, I'll do some limited empathizing and help you come up with a plan of action. If you decide, without good reason, to just stick it out and be miserable, I make it quite clear that I don't want to hear it anymore.

Well, I think you summarized it all pretty well. Intellectually he's quite smart, he has a phD. Inter-personally, he's pretty bad. This is part of why I feel so guilty, I was always there to help him with that. I know that's not my job, but it's just how it was.

For everyone telling me to mind my own business, when he calls me to talk about it, that makes it now partly my business. Now, that doesn't mean I'm just going to say, "get rid of her right now, she's trash" but that also doesn't mean I'm going to coddle him and say, "there, there, everything will be great, just wait." Like I said though, if he calls me, it's because he wants to hear what I'm going to say, because he already knows what I am going to say. He tells me she is irresponsible with money and she makes unreasonable demands, I'm calling it as I see it, that's not acceptable and he needs to speak to her about it.

It doesn't bother me to have him talk to me about it. Frankly I prefer it to him not talking to me.

On his panic attacks, yes, he has been to therapy about it and when I can talk to him a bit more at length, I will be suggesting it again.

[Weeping Sore]

Unless people can be quiet and go in another room, like all day I just can't do more than one day a week.

What if they were bound and gagged in the other room when you weren't using them? Would that work for you?

[Guy Kilmore]

Well, I think you summarized it all pretty well. Intellectually he's quite smart, he has a phD. Inter-personally, he's pretty bad. This is part of why I feel so guilty, I was always there to help him with that. I know that's not my job, but it's just how it was.

For everyone telling me to mind my own business, when he calls me to talk about it, that makes it now partly my business. Now, that doesn't mean I'm just going to say, "get rid of her right now, she's trash" but that also doesn't mean I'm going to coddle him and say, "there, there, everything will be great, just wait." Like I said though, if he calls me, it's because he wants to hear what I'm going to say, because he already knows what I am going to say. He tells me she is irresponsible with money and she makes unreasonable demands, I'm calling it as I see it, that's not acceptable and he needs to speak to her about it.

It doesn't bother me to have him talk to me about it. Frankly I prefer it to him not talking to me.

On his panic attacks, yes, he has been to therapy about it and when I can talk to him a bit more at length, I will be suggesting it again.

I suggested the Therapy part, because Panic Attacks are just a symptom of everything that is going on. Having the support of a friend is great, but you can't provide the person to person connection he might need because of distance. Also, if he is in this relationship for the long haul then he might need someone who can help him process the stress that comes of it and examine the why he is in it. This lets you be more of a "friend" as well and not the primary source for extreme emotional venting.

[deleted01]

My SO was actually in a not-too-dissimilar situation while we were at college. His ex was the worst kind of person - cheating on him, stealing from his family - and she took him down a really bad path. That's not to say he was totally blameless, but she was a real bad apple. I first met her at a mutual friend's party, and didn't like her from the start, but I didn't really know my now-SO well enough then to say anything. For my own reasons, I distanced myself from that group of friends for a while, and when I did see them, she seemed fine, so I didn't get involved. Of course, I didn't know the full extent of what she'd been doing.

They were together for about 2 years before he finally ended it. We had actually gotten closer over the course of their relationship, which just happened to coincide with us taking a class together at college and being forced together, as we didn't know anyone else. He told me of the multiple guys she'd cheated on him with - he even caught her out once through Facebook messages - and occasions of her stealing from his mum. I remember feeling awkward at first, as I didn't want to say anything to upset him, but it didn't take long for me to tell him to get rid of her*. She is one of those poisonous people you just don't need in your life. He now says that having me to talk to through that difficult time (he had other personal stuff going on too) helped him to make better decisions and move on with his life, in more ways than one. I like to think that's true.

The point is, if your friend wants to listen to you, he'll listen. But honestly, the best thing you can do is listen to him, advise him where possible, and just be there when it all goes wrong.

*I know it seems odd, but there was nothing going on between us until after that relationship was way over. Thought I should make that point.

[.H.]

I suggested the Therapy part, because Panic Attacks are just a symptom of everything that is going on. Having the support of a friend is great, but you can't provide the person to person connection he might need because of distance. Also, if he is in this relationship for the long haul then he might need someone who can help him process the stress that comes of it and examine the why he is in it. This lets you be more of a "friend" as well and not the primary source for extreme emotional venting.

Having a psychology degree myself, I agree. He needs to see he needs it first, which is why I need to talk to him again.

[Guy Kilmore]

Having a psychology degree myself, I agree. He needs to see he needs it first, which is why I need to talk to him again.

Good Times. :agree:

[TerraPrime]

What Lily said: speaking ill of her in front of him will only give her the ammunition to alieante you from him, if she hasn't already started doing that. Say what you have to say once, forcefully, then shut up about her.

Also, what Nestor said.

Also also, I say this with no rancor and no ill-will: get over yourself. He's an adult and he has received appropriate advice not just from you but also from your wife, and probably from other people close to him in his life. You are not responsible for his actions, and so deserve no guilt over it. He is not a child, and you are not his parent. To think otherwise implies that you think you have some genuine control over his actions - that's belittling to your friend's autonomy and his decision. Hold him responsible, and stop pitying him. Treat him like an adult who's making a mistake, and not an emotional infant who needs someone holding his hands in life. He's got a PhD so he's at least 26, if not pushing 30. Part of being a grown-up is to take the fall of all the bad decisions we make.

[Elder Sister]

Also also, I say this with no rancor and no ill-will: get over yourself. He's an adult and he has received appropriate advice not just from you but also from your wife, and probably from other people close to him in his life. You are not responsible for his actions, and so deserve no guilt over it. He is not a child, and you are not his parent. To think otherwise implies that you think you have some genuine control over his actions - that's belittling to your friend's autonomy and his decision. Hold him responsible, and stop pitying him. Treat him like an adult who's making a mistake, and not an emotional infant who needs someone holding his hands in life. He's got a PhD so he's at least 26, if not pushing 30. Part of being a grown-up is to take the fall of all the bad decisions we make.

So much this.

Best thing in my opinion, is to stay out of it and offer support as a friend. It's his marriage and his life; not yours. If he asks, you can give an opinion, but I would be really careful about not getting negative.

[.H.]

What Lily said: speaking ill of her in front of him will only give her the ammunition to alieante you from him, if she hasn't already started doing that. Say what you have to say once, forcefully, then shut up about her.

Also, what Nestor said.

Also also, I say this with no rancor and no ill-will: get over yourself. He's an adult and he has received appropriate advice not just from you but also from your wife, and probably from other people close to him in his life. You are not responsible for his actions, and so deserve no guilt over it. He is not a child, and you are not his parent. To think otherwise implies that you think you have some genuine control over his actions - that's belittling to your friend's autonomy and his decision. Hold him responsible, and stop pitying him. Treat him like an adult who's making a mistake, and not an emotional infant who needs someone holding his hands in life. He's got a PhD so he's at least 26, if not pushing 30. Part of being a grown-up is to take the fall of all the bad decisions we make.

I have actually never said even a word about her to him. Not once, let alone something bad. He comes to me with the issues, I listen and let him know that the behavior he is having issues with is not alright. I know far better than to try to actually say my opinion of her.

He is a month older than me actually. Not that physical age has much to do with emotional maturity or ability to make good decisions. You are right though, I do have an issue with how I view myself. I want to help far too much, more than I can or probably should. It's a major reason why I gave up psychology. I battle with the fact that no matter how much I care or want to help, ultimately I cannot. My own agency is an issue and has been since my preteen days. I have always been first to blame myself with anything that goes wrong with anything, even things only tangentially related to me or sometimes even with things that had nothing to do with me. That's my issue though, which should probably get it's own thread, probably a thread in the trash bin or something.

I know he's an adult. I know he has to make his own decisions, mistakes and all. There is absolutely no way for me to fix anything at all. He'll see it and fix it or he won't and pay the consequences. I'm just frustrated with how bad this situation he's gotten himself in to.

So much this.

Best thing in my opinion, is to stay out of it and offer support as a friend. It's his marriage and his life; not yours. If he asks, you can give an opinion, but I would be really careful about not getting negative.

Again, it isn't as if I am attempting to actively wedge myself in to the situation. Everything he has ever told me has been because he felt like telling me. I've literally never even asked. I have only ever told him that the issues are real and he needs to work them out with her.

[Kat]

Ugh, so I went on a couple of dates with SHJ (the guy I knew from college) a while ago, but none of them led to anything particularly romantic and as I previously mentioned here, there were things about him that drove me kind of crazy (not in a good way). We had recently hung out with others at a social occasion, but that wasn't even a date. He kept asking me this weekend if we could go out sometime this week (I was away over last weekend) and I said sure, on Friday, but just to be clear, I wasn't interested in dating, only friendship. He is interesting to talk to but I am just not attracted to him.

So it turns out he was beginning to be more interested recently and hoped we could develop a relationship through friendship. I told him I wasn't interested in that. He then told me via text that he was feeling kind of hurt and needed some time but could we talk later? And then said yes let's meet on Friday. Now I'm kind of wondering if I should ask him for even more time, because I don't want to spend time processing with someone who is attracted to me but can't accept that I'm not attracted to him. There's nothing I can say about it that won't become personal. If you just officially told someone 'friends only' and they still wanted to see you, how would you make it clear that personal topics are off-limits?

[Lily Valley]

What if they were bound and gagged in the other room when you weren't using them? Would that work for you?

That is too much work. I just want to point to the closet and have them put themselves away.

Kat, I'd assume he had already dealt with it. If he wants to "process", bail.

[TerraPrime]

Now I'm kind of wondering if I should ask him for even more time, because I don't want to spend time processing with someone who is attracted to me but can't accept that I'm not attracted to him. There's nothing I can say about it that won't become personal. If you just officially told someone 'friends only' and they still wanted to see you, how would you make it clear that personal topics are off-limits?

So many factors play into this.

First, how much do you want to keep him as a friend - that gives you a base line on how much hand-holding you will be willing to do. To the extent that helping him process his feelings will help him stay a friend later on, you should probably do it. I mean, if another friend just got dumped, you'd go to coffee with him/her and listen to them mope and vent, right? Obviously, the dynamic is different when you're the one who forestalled romantic development.

That will also help you figure out how much bullshit you want to deal with when it comes to using all the tacts you possess to tell him you're just not romantically and/or physically attracted to him without hurting his feelings. It can me done, in some cases, but it takes a lot of effort. So, should you make the effort? I think we all should make some effort, because nobody likes to be rejected and if we're on the other hand, we'd want the other person to have some empathy and some kindness. So I always start with statements like "I don't see that we're compatible" or "We are at very different stages in our lives" or "Our core values are very different" etc. Try to make it about the situation, and not him.

But some people just don't get the clue. Or won't stop asking. So then, that's a case-by-case decision on whether I will keep the tactful approach or just give them the plain truth. It's not easy. It's always awkward. And it's not fun.

ETA

And some people will want to argue you out of the decision. If you see that, just shut that shit down quick. "I am trying to explain my reasoning, not looking to be convinced that I made a wrong decision. Please respect that."

[Swordfish]

Ugh, so I went on a couple of dates with SHJ (the guy I knew from college) a while ago, but none of them led to anything particularly romantic and as I previously mentioned here, there were things about him that drove me kind of crazy (not in a good way). We had recently hung out with others at a social occasion, but that wasn't even a date. He kept asking me this weekend if we could go out sometime this week (I was away over last weekend) and I said sure, on Friday, but just to be clear, I wasn't interested in dating, only friendship. He is interesting to talk to but I am just not attracted to him.

So it turns out he was beginning to be more interested recently and hoped we could develop a relationship through friendship. I told him I wasn't interested in that. He then told me via text that he was feeling kind of hurt and needed some time but could we talk later? And then said yes let's meet on Friday. Now I'm kind of wondering if I should ask him for even more time, because I don't want to spend time processing with someone who is attracted to me but can't accept that I'm not attracted to him. There's nothing I can say about it that won't become personal. If you just officially told someone 'friends only' and they still wanted to see you, how would you make it clear that personal topics are off-limits?

if you've already told him, flat out, then you've met your part of the obligation.

I don't think you are obligated to talk it through with him. If he's not ok with that, that's on him, and he should grow the fuck up already and realize some people you like are not gonna like you back, and thats ok.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Going to a speed dating event soon. Anyone with experience got some useful advice for me?

[sologdin]

it goes so quickly that you'll need endearing little rhymes to keep everyone distinct, such as 'hurtin for a squirtin' and 'ho fo sho.'

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

So I've sort of been in touch with my dream woman, I'll call her Josie (Not to be confused with Miss Former Coworker) via e-mail. Would it be weird to ask her out like that? She's back in town, settled into her new apartment and her new gig. She had mentioned drinks awhile back but it never came up again so should I put it out there?

[sologdin]

text this: u r my dream woman lets get that drink colt 45 on me

works every time.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

So I've sort of been in touch with my dream woman (Not to be confused with Miss Former Coworker) via e-mail. Would it be weird to ask her out like that? She's back in town, settled into her new apartment and her new gig. She had mentioned drinks awhile back but it never came up again so should I put it out there?

"Drinks" is not even asking her out, it's just drinks . Go for it.

[KiDisaster]

So I've sort of been in touch with my dream woman (Not to be confused with Miss Former Coworker) via e-mail. Would it be weird to ask her out like that? She's back in town, settled into her new apartment and her new gig. She had mentioned drinks awhile back but it never came up again so should I put it out there?

Do you have another way to contact her? E-mail feels really impersonal to me and I'd generally pick any other option above it but that might just be a weird hang up of mine. I'd call or text personally and just ask if she's still up to grab those drinks.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Do you have another way to contact her? E-mail feels really impersonal to me and I'd generally pick any other option above it but that might just be a weird hang up of mine. I'd call or text personally and just ask if she's still up to grab those drinks.

I have the very same hang up as well. Although if I had another option I probably wouldn't use it either but that is much sadder story. But no I don't, shit last time I was with her in person she had mentioned a boyfriend ( her going away party that he was missing from) but implied there was trouble in paradise. So I guess I've been waiting for her to bring up the topic.