[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Hoppy Hour]

Oh, and by the way.

In the books, when Theon & Jeyne make the jump, snow is everywhere to be seen and even the courtyard is fully covered in it.

In the show, the burning of Shireen causes the snows to melt. There is no snow in the field of battle outside Winterfell, no snow in the woods where Brienne and Podrick are, but apparently there is plenty where the decide to jump. Why? How? The show gives no reason, only that on the inside there is no snow so Myranda can fall to her death, on the outside there is plenty so they'll both survive. Oh well.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Oh, and by the way.

In the books, when Theon & Jeyne make the jump, snow is everywhere to be seen and even the courtyard is fully covered in it.

In the show, the burning of Shireen causes the snows to melt. There is no snow in the field of battle outside Winterfell, no snow in the woods where Brienne and Podrick are, but apparently there is plenty where the decide to jump. Why? How? The show gives no reason, only that on the inside there is no snow so Myranda can fall to her death, on the outside there is plenty so they'll both survive. Oh well.

IF I remember correctly, yes, the snows are heavy and the injuries to Jeyne are caused when theon/Reek lands on top of her. this time, not as much snow but I bet Sansa lands on top of Theon/Reek and they kill him off. Since the show is cutting corners and obviously, Theon has been redeemed, give him a heroic death and have him give his life to save hers.

Sansa, Brienne and Pod make for Castle Black. Ramsay knows what he told her about Jon. Pink Letter is sent to Castle black but Jon is dead, so Thorne or someone receives it, maybe decides to have Sansa given to the Boltons when she arrives. Mel sees this in the fires and her and Davos, Ghost and or resurrrected Jon (his body and aftermath is a cliffhanger in and of itself) and leave Castle black hoping to intercept and save Sansa, then, this new group embarks on finding Rickon and then we will see the gathering by the end of next year, all of the absent Northern Lords that will seek to re-establish Starks in the North.

Also, Littlefinger and the Vale will be at Winterfell and take the place of the Manderly's. Bolton will think they are allies, but when Rickon, Sansa and go show up, they turn on the Boltons and kill them. LF will think that Sansa will still eat out of his hand but she has to be the one to take him out/kill him. They may have just delayed the Great Northern Conspiracy plot to next season and decided it was too crowded and got rid of Stannis now. That is what I am thinking. At the end of this plot though, before the Others and Wight Walkers invade, Sansa will save her only kill, her first and possibly last for Littlefinger himself. (Sansa did not kill anyone this year so I think they are saving that for him).

[Hoppy Hour]

IF I remember correctly, yes, the snows are heavy and the injuries to Jeyne are caused when theon/Reek lands on top of her. this time, not as much snow but I bet Sansa lands on top of Theon/Reek and they kill him off. Since the show is cutting corners and obviously, Theon has been redeemed, give him a heroic death and have him give his life to save hers.

Sansa, Brienne and Pod make for Castle Black. Ramsay knows what he told her about Jon. Pink Letter is sent to Castle black but Jon is dead, so Thorne or someone receives it, maybe decides to have Sansa given to the Boltons when she arrives. Mel sees this in the fires and her and Davos, Ghost and or resurrrected Jon (his body and aftermath is a cliffhanger in and of itself) and leave Castle black hoping to intercept and save Sansa, then, this new group embarks on finding Rickon and then we will see the gathering by the end of next year, all of the absent Northern Lords that will seek to re-establish Starks in the North.

Also, Littlefinger and the Vale will be at Winterfell and take the place of the Manderly's. Bolton will think they are allies, but when Rickon, Sansa and go show up, they turn on the Boltons and kill them. LF will think that Sansa will still eat out of his hand but she has to be the one to take him out/kill him. They may have just delayed the Great Northern Conspiracy plot to next season and decided it was too crowded and got rid of Stannis now. That is what I am thinking. At the end of this plot though, before the Others and Wight Walkers invade, Sansa will save her only kill, her first and possibly last for Littlefinger himself. (Sansa did not kill anyone this year so I think they are saving that for him).

LF's plan, or at least what he said to Cersei, was to defeat the weak winner army, as he thought Stannis would win but be weakened by the siege/battle. But now there is only one army, and I see no reason why they should act against the Boltons, since attacking them would break the king's peace. Or not?

[A Ghost of Someone]

LF's plan, or at least what he said to Cersei, was to defeat the weak winner army, as he thought Stannis would win but be weakened by the siege/battle. But now there is only one army, and I see no reason why they should act against the Boltons, since attacking them would break the king's peace. Or not?

The Boltons did break the peace when they harbored and married Sansa to Ramsay. Sansa,who is wanted for the assasination of Joffrey, along with her then betrothed (never consummated so on the show, husband/wife is a loose term in their regard) Tyrion. Littlefinger has the green light and has been gone for 3 episodes. He called for banners assuredly as soon as Cersei gave him the green light (based on falsehoods by Littlefinger). Rest assured, Littlefinger will be anxious to get Sansa back but he is in for a shock or two. The show made him really gamble on this fiasco to fit Sansa into Winterfell so I look forward to seeing Baelish anguish a lot.

[Pies are coming]

IF I remember correctly, yes, the snows are heavy and the injuries to Jeyne are caused when theon/Reek lands on top of her. this time, not as much snow but I bet Sansa lands on top of Theon/Reek and they kill him off. Since the show is cutting corners and obviously, Theon has been redeemed, give him a heroic death and have him give his life to save hers.

Sansa, Brienne and Pod make for Castle Black. Ramsay knows what he told her about Jon. Pink Letter is sent to Castle black but Jon is dead, so Thorne or someone receives it, maybe decides to have Sansa given to the Boltons when she arrives. Mel sees this in the fires and her and Davos, Ghost and or resurrrected Jon (his body and aftermath is a cliffhanger in and of itself) and leave Castle black hoping to intercept and save Sansa, then, this new group embarks on finding Rickon and then we will see the gathering by the end of next year, all of the absent Northern Lords that will seek to re-establish Starks in the North.

Also, Littlefinger and the Vale will be at Winterfell and take the place of the Manderly's. Bolton will think they are allies, but when Rickon, Sansa and go show up, they turn on the Boltons and kill them. LF will think that Sansa will still eat out of his hand but she has to be the one to take him out/kill him. They may have just delayed the Great Northern Conspiracy plot to next season and decided it was too crowded and got rid of Stannis now. That is what I am thinking. At the end of this plot though, before the Others and Wight Walkers invade, Sansa will save her only kill, her first and possibly last for Littlefinger himself. (Sansa did not kill anyone this year so I think they are saving that for him).

And if they use next season to warp up ADWD in the North, how are they going to fit TWOW+ADWD in just one final season?

I think, unless Sansa is instrumental in a Stark restoration in the books (if such a thing happens, that's it), then both Sansa and Theon have been killed in the show

[David Selig]

Oh, and by the way.

In the books, when Theon & Jeyne make the jump, snow is everywhere to be seen and even the courtyard is fully covered in it.

In the show, the burning of Shireen causes the snows to melt. There is no snow in the field of battle outside Winterfell, no snow in the woods where Brienne and Podrick are, but apparently there is plenty where the decide to jump.

There isn't actually. They showed what's on the ground next to the wall and there was like 2 cm of snow max.

Sansa and Theon will survive somehow, of course, because the show is that silly these days.

[Chebyshov]

The Boltons did break the peace when they harbored and married Sansa to Ramsay. Sansa,who is wanted for the assasination of Joffrey, along with her then betrothed (never consummated so on the show, husband/wife is a loose term in their regard) Tyrion. Littlefinger has the green light and has been gone for 3 episodes. He called for banners assuredly as soon as Cersei gave him the green light (based on falsehoods by Littlefinger). Rest assured, Littlefinger will be anxious to get Sansa back but he is in for a shock or two. The show made him really gamble on this fiasco to fit Sansa into Winterfell so I look forward to seeing Baelish anguish a lot.

Yeah, it's almost as though agreeing to that is something Roose "I need certain assurances" Bolton would never do and that the entire marriage plot was devoid of all logic for every party involved :dunno: .

[Cas Stark]

There isn't actually. They showed what's on the ground next to the wall and there was like 2 cm of snow max.

Sansa and Theon will survive somehow, of course, because the show is that silly these days.

I can't even believe people think there is a chance that Sansa and Theon are dead. I suppose it's possible they might kill Theon, as I'm not sure what he will do with no Stannis, but the idea that they jumped into the only giant snowdrift any where in sight, with the ground visible everywhere else, but still will die is not happening. I doubt they are even injured, one of them will probably have a limp or broken arm.

[Masha]

There isn't actually. They showed what's on the ground next to the wall and there was like 2 cm of snow max.

Sansa and Theon will survive somehow, of course, because the show is that silly these days.

There is no chance or doubt whatsoever that any of them are dead (unlike say Stannis, Myrcella and of course Jon), but sometimes writers are kind of following the book script to a Tee in certain scenes, so I am pretty sure that whatever hurts Theon and Jeyne had in ADWD they will be in the shows, I believe had Theon had a broken leg and Jeyne ????

I am also sure that mysteriously that 2cm of snow next to the Walls would become 10 feet of snow by premiere or somehow they manage to land in non-existent huge snow drift. (If they even bother showing the landing, I suspect their first scene next season would be hobbling/hiding away from WF and not even mentioning snow impact, just their hurts)

[Woofless]

*snip*

I had hope for Sansa and her story but now I do not. D&D said in their post show interview last night that Stannis did the worst thing be sacrificing his daughter for the Iron Throne. Well, in a lot of ways, D&D have done the same thing. They've sacrificed the arc and development their main character (in many ways, the show's daughter) for the sake of temporarily grabbing headlines and getting ratings. You know what else? It didn't pay off.

I know I'm going to be jumped on for this, but I've never seen Sansa as a main character. Yes, she's a POV to give us insight into what was going on in King's Landing, but IMO she is a less important character than Theon.

Theon had to have someone to save at Winterfell and bringing in a new character (Jeyne) to do this was out of the question. Yes, I think they made a big mistake in the show, when she walked down the stairs dressed in black, in the books she was only beginning to clue in about how things worked.

Theon (IMO) had the far more important storyline in the books and may continue to do so.

[Colonel Green]

I know I'm going to be jumped on for this, but I've never seen Sansa as a main character. Yes, she's a POV to give us insight into what was going on in King's Landing, but IMO she is a less important character than Theon.

Sansa's POVs do tell us things about King's Landing, but GRRM could have just written more Tyrion POVs to convey whatever he thought was important there. He didn't, because Sansa's POVs exist because she's a main character whose personal is important to the series.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I disagree.

A grown woman who knows about her body would know how to read the signs after ten days. A young girl who has been through so much and has no medical knowledge might not even realize that her period is missing or she would put any physical discomfort or nausea on her dire situation. It is quite likely that Sansa, like so many pregnant teenagers, only gets aware of her situation when she is three months into her pregnancy, at a time when the amount of moon tea needed might turn into serious poisoning. If she knows where to get any. Would there be a competent midwife around to do a "mechanical" abortion?

And women have stayed pregnant under the most horrendous conditions: starving in torture camps, after car accidents and whatever. There is, unfortunately for Sansa, a huge advantage for pregnancies in young women. And healthy 18 year olds will most likely get pregnant if they have regular sex during the time of ovulation, meaning over a week or more in one cycle.

So we do not know if Martin wants to go that road with Sansa. But from a medical point of view a pregnancy story would not be anyhow absurd or illogical.

Let's start with Martin doesn't go this road with Sansa at all. Martin didn't put Sansa in Winterfell. She's at the Vale as of now. Who did put her there was D&D. This is their storyline. The same way they chose to kill Stannis by making him a one-dimensional monster and to apparently "kill" off Jon by Olly-stabbing. Any comparison to George's writing at this point comes off badly.

Second, the argument wasn't about Sansa's chances of being pregnant, but the time she was married with Ramsay. She might be pregnant even with her ten days of rape. But in no way is sex=pregnancy. And considering no evidence of such thing, I don't see it happening.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I know I'm going to be jumped on for this, but I've never seen Sansa as a main character. Yes, she's a POV to give us insight into what was going on in King's Landing, but IMO she is a less important character than theon.

Theon (IMO) had the far more important storyline in the books and may continue to do so.

I love Theon, but he's obviously the secondary character. His story is ACOK and ADWD, whilst Sansa's been a POV from the very beggining. This story, independent of one's personal opinions, is centered around six characters: Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya and Bran. They are the main characters and players for the "endgame."

[David Selig]

I am also sure that mysteriously that 2cm of snow next to the Walls would become 10 feet of snow by premiere or somehow they manage to land in non-existent huge snow drift. (If they even bother showing the landing, I suspect their first scene next season would be hobbling/hiding away from WF and not even mentioning snow impact, just their hurts)

Yeah, that's what I expect too. Just like Tyrion, Jorah and Daario made it out of the arena "offscreen" after Drogon flew away and they didn't even mention how they managed to escape the crowd of Sons of the Harpy.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I know I'm going to be jumped on for this, but I've never seen Sansa as a main character. Yes, she's a POV to give us insight into what was going on in King's Landing, but IMO she is a less important character than Theon.

Theon had to have someone to save at Winterfell and bringing in a new character (Jeyne) to do this was out of the question. Yes, I think they made a big mistake in the show, when she walked down the stairs dressed in black, in the books she was only beginning to clue in about how things worked.

Theon (IMO) had the far more important storyline in the books and may continue to do so.

Well let's agree to disagree. As we know Sansa had POV status in the first book when there was a lot of characters around her at all time so we didn't need her particularly to get insight in KL or WF. Theon was there just as very minor character in the background. He gets POV status when he separates from everyone,so it is fair to speculate he only earned his POV status to enable us to see Iron Islands and WF when there was no one else there. Sansa also never disappeared for a book or so like Theon did. So yes he's interesting character and yes his story is very complex but just because he's more interesting to you than Sansa it doesn't make him more important character. GRRM choose to include her from the start,not him,for a reason.

Re: Jane being out of the question,I don't see why that was the case.They had no problem including Myranda who had just as little screen time as Jane would have had.

[Newstar]

I can't blame D&D for scrapping Sansa's shitty AFFC material. It was dull as dirt in the books and would have been even duller in the show. Her TWOW chapter is even worse; not only is it boring, but I've seen more compelling writing and better dialogue in Sweet Valley High books. If anyone thought it was good, it would only be because they'd been deprived of new material for so long. McDonald's is objectively shitty food, but if you've been in a state of prolonged famine, that quarter pounder, however awful it might be in any other context, will be the best thing you've ever tasted.

That isn't to say that her Season 5 arc is exempt from criticism, since they could have done any number of things when they rightly decided to scrap her book material. However, the decision to discard her book material was above reproach and the only right choice.

[David Selig]

I can't blame D&D for scrapping Sansa's shitty AFFC material. It was dull as dirt in the books and would have been even duller in the show. Her TWOW chapter is even worse; not only is it boring, but I've seen more compelling writing and better dialogue in Sweet Valley High books. If anyone thought it was good, it would only be because they'd been deprived of new material for so long. McDonald's is objectively shitty food, but if you've been in a state of prolonged famine, that quarter pounder, however awful it might be in any other context, will be the best thing you've ever tasted.

Yeah, anyone who disagree with your superior opinion is clearly wrong, we get it.

[Newstar]

One thing I did notice in terms of the discussion of Season 5 Sansa being knocked back to Seasons 1-3 in terms of her development. In 2x04, Sansa was facing down sadistic psychopath Joffrey's crossbow when he was threatening her and was losing her shit: weeping, begging, the works. In 5x10, Sansa was facing down sadistic psychopath Myranda's bow and showed no fear or any interest in begging for mercy. I don't know if it was a deliberate callback or not, but it was an interesting change.

[WSmith84]

I can't blame D&D for scrapping Sansa's shitty AFFC material. It was dull as dirt in the books and would have been even duller in the show. Her TWOW chapter is even worse; not only is it boring, but I've seen more compelling writing and better dialogue in Sweet Valley High books. If anyone thought it was good, it would only be because they'd been deprived of new material for so long. McDonald's is objectively shitty food, but if you've been in a state of prolonged famine, that quarter pounder, however awful it might be in any other context, will be the best thing you've ever tasted.

That isn't to say that her Season 5 arc is exempt from criticism, since they could have done any number of things when they rightly decided to scrap her book material. However, the decision to discard her book material was above reproach and the only right choice.

Actually it isn't an objectively good choice. Sansa's AFFC material is not objectively bad. Those are just your opinions. Maybe Sansa learning politics in the Vale wouldn't make great material for TV. But just about anything would have been better than what we got.

Sansa in Winterfell costs absolutely every character: Theon, Roose, Littlefinger, Sansa. Instead of tension between the Northern Lords, the mystery killer, Theon praying to the Heart Tree, Frey Pies etc. we got... 50 shades of Ramsey and Sansa being raped. It was televised excrement.

[Baroque]

Didn't a similar fall paralyze Bran from the waist down? I'm sure something will happen to Theon and Sansa, most likely an injury at least.

Also what is their game plan after hitting the ground? Run? Any time now, Ramsay will be back at Winterfell on horseback. Assuming he approaches the opposite side of Winterfell so he can't see them fall, he'll still discover Miranda's death and that Sansa and Reek are missing. Don't forget how he likes to hunt people down with hounds.

So you have Sansa and Theon with injured legs, no tree cover for a fair distance away, and Ramsay with horses and hounds. Doesn't look good. I suppose their best bet is Brienne to the rescue. Where will Brienne even take Sansa though, back to Tarth? Nowhere else is safe that I can think of.

Will someone kill this Ramsay bastard already?