Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[DanïelNorth]

3 minutes ago, lidsa said:

Sansa doesn't need a regent, she's 18 in the show.

They need a military leader in the wars to come. Maybe not as regent, but surely as the most important general.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

I am interested to see what part she will play in the Battle for Winterfell. Will she encourage/discourage Jon to personally lead the army? Will she, despite having no experience, attempt to direct troops from the rear, or will she hang back a long way?

[adiman83]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

It is not about underestimating it. It is about realizing what she has been doing so far. The fact remains that she wants Northern lord to look at Jon and see Ned. Sansa used her knowledge to make of Jon a Stark, someone who Northerners will remember. That cape had its meaning and is not just for decorative purposes.

I get that. I really do. But I think she's only using Jon, and when (or if) they take Winterfell and the North she doesn't plan on sharing the power with him. I think she only sees him as a means to an end.

[lidsa]

14 minutes ago, DanïelNorth said:

They need a military leader in the wars to come. Maybe not as regent, but surely as the most important general.

Sure, he could be the Grey Worm to her Dany.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, adiman83 said:

I get that. I really do. But I think she's only using Jon, and when (or if) they take Winterfell and the North she doesn't plan on sharing the power with him. I think she only sees him as a means to an end.

That could happen but so far we have seen nothing to suggest so. 

[solomon585858]

Jon will not be some Winter General he will be the King In the North during this season and I doubt Sanssa will somehow betray him this season. It will be interesting to see what will happen next season when Jon will have to fight against Lannisters and Freys in Riverrun.

[adiman83]

Just now, Risto said:

That could happen but so far we have seen nothing to suggest so. 

I just find her behaviour a bit weird. In the previous episode she says the northern lords will follow him. But in this episode she said he's Ned's son just as much as Ramsay is Roose Bolton's (which seemed like a reminder of his status as a bastard) and he doesn't have the Stark name but she does. That's why I think she's manipulating him.

 

2 minutes ago, solomon585858 said:

Jon will not be some Winter General he will be the King In the North during this season and I doubt Sanssa will somehow betray him this season. It will be interesting to see what will happen next season when Jon will have to fight against Lannisters and Freys in Riverrun.

Unless Sansa names herself Queen in the North before he gets a chance to do it. And she does have a better claim, because Jon is not a Stark, he's a Snow. Not only that, Sansa is officially the oldest and only surviving Stark heir. Remember, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, Theon killed Bran and Rickon and everyone thinks Arya died years ago. 

She's also Lady Bolton by marriage. So if she gets Ramsay killed (which she might), since Roose had no trueborn children, she can already claim the North as a Bolton. Boltons are the official Wardens of the North.

[Lord Friendzone]

16 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

I don't think Meera is important enough, if anyone ends up with Jon, it's going to be a POV character. Also, I don't think she's is his twin sister, but, in that case, it's even more obvious why Jon would not end up with her. Incest between siblings is frowned upon, not between cousins (although I've mentioned many times I believe Jon will stay single till the end) and I don't think Jon would use a "Targaryen" excuse for it. 

Either way, the chances for anyone outside Dany-Arya (on the books) and Dany-Arya-Sansa (on the Show) to end up with Jon are down to 0 if you ask me. I just can't see it happening. Maybe he could have something with Val, Mel, or Alys Karstark, I honestly don't think so, but who knows...but they are not endgame partners, not when you have the relationship Arya shares with Jon (and the original outline of the series having Arya fall in love with Jon before she even knew he was her cousin) or the parallels and foreshadowing between Dany and Jon.

t's really off topic.

Jon/Arya relationship is not so strong in the show. You can make the case for the books but not for the show and as for Jon/Daeny. I just struggle to see this ending happily for them. I don't see any foreshadowing at least in the show for them to be together at the end...parallels in general could easily serves as two legitimate Targaryens, two saviours, two most important characters...their destiny to push white walkers.

[Drz]

Why would Jon Snow accept the title of a King when he knows his brother Bran is out there?

[Mladen]

11 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

I just find her behaviour a bit weird. In the previous episode she says the northern lords will follow him. But in this episode she said he's Ned's son just as much as Ramsay is Roose Bolton's (which seemed like a reminder of his status as a bastard) and he doesn't have the Stark name but she does. That's why I think she's manipulating him.

Except the context of those lines are contradicting said interpretation. Sansa is defending Jon from Davos' assertion that Jon has no right to assemble Northern army. Plus, Sansa pulling "I am Stark" card is what gives legitimacy to the cause. More than that, it seems that she is quite adamant about trusting Jon and that she is ready to help him in any way she can (hence, the Ned cloak)

11 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

She's also Lady Bolton by marriage. So if she gets Ramsay killed (which she might), since Roose had no trueborn children, she can already claim the North as a Bolton. Boltons are the official Wardens of the North.

You can't have both way. Sansa can't be overthrowing Boltons and playing Bolton card. Boltons are official Wardens because outsiders made them - Tywin Lannister to be exact. If she had plans to inherit WF as Lady Bolton, Sansa would do what Ramsay did - stay close to the enemy and on first sign of weakness, kill them. Sansa chose different route so entire Lady Bolton path is closed. If she is to inherit or fight for WF, she will do as a Stark. That was the whole point "I have a Stark name" line.

[~DarkHorse~]

4 hours ago, permaximum said:

Jon is not a Stark, not a great fighter, not a great commander and Sansa is a woman while the rightful heirs Bran and Rickon live. Sansa wants to play the game but she lacks the experience and the wits. With this mindset ultimately she will die before the end of the series. Especially if she tries to play her first game with the most dangerous man in Westeros. Even she doesn't know what Baelish is capable of.  After the ecounter in the last episode if Baelish doesn't love Sansa in reality, she's definetely going to die soon. If he loves her a bit, he won't kill her but he will definetely watch her steps from now on. (Albeit I still believe Ramsay will kill LF this season)

Shorthly, Sansa is really putting herself in a very dangerous position. She's not a player like Olenna Tyrell who acknowledged the dangerous situation after Tyrells went into chaos and threatened Baelish with revealing Joffrey's murder if an accident happens to her or in the case of her house falls.

While the de-facto head of the current most powerful house really do fear Baelish and know what he's capable of, Sansa should not trust the feelings of Petyr Baelish has for her. If she's wrong, it will definetely be her downfall.

However, I believe LF still has mixed feelings for her.

Jon is a proven fighter and Commander. He was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is a capable swordsman. He may never have been in any (political) wars, but he has leadership experience and a Wildlings army in his pocket. If he plays his cards right, he can also play up the "gods on my side" card with him having been miraculously brought back to life (I doubt this will happen, though). 

Jon was made Lord Commander because of his leadership during the battle for the wall. He does have experience. 

 

[Ingelheim]

8 minutes ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

Jon is a proven fighter and Commander. He was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is a capable swordsman. He may never have been in any (political) wars, but he has leadership experience and a Wildlings army in his pocket. If he plays his cards right, he can also play up the "gods on my side" card with him having been miraculously brought back to life (I doubt this will happen, though). 

Jon was made Lord Commander because of his leadership during the battle for the wall. He does have experience. 

 

Also, Jon was at Hardhome and he killed a White Walker back there. If he hadn't been there, all the Wildlings would have died. Both the Wildlings and the members of the NW know this.

Show Jon is more battle tested and capable as a commander than Book Jon. I think that's clear by now.

[tallTale]

moved.

[Ice Spider]

8 hours ago, lidsa said:

And did you forget that Sansa (and Ned and Arya) would never even have gone to King's Landing if Littlefinger hadn't had Jon Arryn killed and then lied about it? And then lied about Bran's attack, which pitted the Starks against the Lannisters as well? And then betrayed Ned, which led to his arrest? And then convinced Joffrey to kill Ned, even though Cersei wanted him as a prisoner?

Saving Sansa's life does not pay the debt Littlefinger owes the Starks. Only his head on a spike will.

 

But your looking at it from the perspective of a show viewer, and not Sansa''s POV. The fact of the matter is Sanss doesn't know half of these things (at least not yet). From Sansa's perspective Peter rescued her from Kings landing and immanent death. He stopped her Aunt from pushing her through the moon door. If you remember the "kiss" it was not resisted by Sansa. That right there should tell you something.

Is she a little upset for LF handing her over to Ramsey? Oh hell yes. But the rest of it is up for debate as to what she knows and does not know. LF still has an army, one that Sansa will need, but Sansa wants it on her terms.

[Smoke317]

9 hours ago, DanïelNorth said:

If Rickon dies and Bran doesnt want to be Lord of Winterfell (Which is very plausible) it becomes a bit more hazy.

Who to follow? A bastard or a woman? I think Sansa will be Wardeness of the North, but with Jon as her regent and general. The Northern houses wouldn't have it any other way with winter coming. I hope Davos gets the Dreadfort.

I dont think the R+L=J reveal by Bran to Team Stark will happen this season, but the next. Setting up the Dany against Jon conflict. With Sansa and Davos at his back Jon has very smart advisors. Plus he isn't dumb himself. (Smart enough to infiltrate the wildlings, kill the traitors and become LC)

 

Since when did Sansa become a smart adviser?  And very smart at that?

[Smoke317]

9 hours ago, DanïelNorth said:

If Rickon dies and Bran doesnt want to be Lord of Winterfell (Which is very plausible) it becomes a bit more hazy.

Who to follow? A bastard or a woman? I think Sansa will be Wardeness of the North, but with Jon as her regent and general. The Northern houses wouldn't have it any other way with winter coming. I hope Davos gets the Dreadfort.

I dont think the R+L=J reveal by Bran to Team Stark will happen this season, but the next. Setting up the Dany against Jon conflict. With Sansa and Davos at his back Jon has very smart advisors. Plus he isn't dumb himself. (Smart enough to infiltrate the wildlings, kill the traitors and become LC)

 

You have it backwards. I see no way Sansa ends up Wardeness of the North. Especially with Winter coming. Why would they pick a woman with no leadership skills over a man who has commanded and will command an army???  Add in the fact he's killed a white walker...  No way Sansa gets the nod over Jon. And I'm anxious to see how she responds to this. Will she resent Jon and seek out LF who will tell her I told you so...?  Anyway, Sansa is more of a Southern girl and if she continues on this current arc of playing the game, she belongs in the South with the other political game players and schemers. If Sansa does survive the series, I think the best she can hope for is to become Wardeness of the Riverlands once Edmure is offed. Which she and most would consider a better place than the cold and dreary North. 

[Smoke317]

8 hours ago, Drz said:

Why would Jon Snow accept the title of a King when he knows his brother Bran is out there?

Because Bran will declare him King. He won't do it until then and then only reluctantly. Jon is all about family. No lies. No misdirection. He's battled his internal demons of being a bastard and passed this test with flying colors.  You'd think he'd be inclined to take it all for himself if he was a selfish person. Most in this series would. But that has never been his nature.  Thus far anyway. I wonder if Sansa's power games will lead to Jon turning darker?

[Smoke317]

11 hours ago, permaximum said:

Jon is not a Stark, not a great fighter, not a great commander and Sansa is a woman while the rightful heirs Bran and Rickon live. Sansa wants to play the game but she lacks the experience and the wits. With this mindset ultimately she will die before the end of the series. Especially if she tries to play her first game with the most dangerous man in Westeros. Even she doesn't know what Baelish is capable of.  After the ecounter in the last episode if Baelish doesn't love Sansa in reality, she's definetely going to die soon. If he loves her a bit, he won't kill her but he will definetely watch her steps from now on. (Albeit I still believe Ramsay will kill LF this season)

Shorthly, Sansa is really putting herself in a very dangerous position. She's not a player like Olenna Tyrell who acknowledged the dangerous situation after Tyrells went into chaos and threatened Baelish with revealing Joffrey's murder if an accident happens to her or in the case of her house falls.

While the de-facto head of the current most powerful house really do fear Baelish and know what he's capable of, Sansa should not trust the feelings of Petyr Baelish has for her. If she's wrong, it will definetely be her downfall.

However, I believe LF still has mixed feelings for her.

True. Jon is not a Stark but I think he's a damn good fighter. He's killed plenty of whites and wildlings even mutineers of the NW, the Magnar of Thenn (known as a great warrior), the legend of fookin gin alley (with a little help there. Lol) and beat a White Walker in one on one combat.  I think his show resume stacks up against any one else's on GoT's. Only taking into account what we've seen on the show. And he's also a damn good commander who leads from the front. He was crucial in the defense of Castle Black. Led the defense on top of the wall and inside the castle. Led the raid on Crasters to kill the mutineers. Even volunteered for a suicide mission to stop the wildlings from overrunning CB...  Sounds like one helluva leader and commander to me. You notice his great friend Grenn didn't hesitate to go and hold the gate against the giant. Knowing it would cost his life. Why?  Because Jon's leadership inspired him and he trusted him. And now we're about to see him lead men into a full scale battle. Short handed and outnumbered because his sister Sansa decided to keep valuable resources (an entire Army) from him to "play the game"...  If Jon survived the Battle of the Bastards, I know if I was from the North he'd get my vote for King in the North. But knowing him, he'd give it to Bran...  

[lakin1013]

When (and if) there is a R+L reveal, I think Jon will become immensely more attractive to Sansa, and I mean politically at least, possibly romantically as well.  I recognize that thought as cynical but I find that the character of Sansa makes me watch out for her, in a wary way. I want to like her but the books painted her as a bit of a social climber, somewhat superficial, and a lover of status.  

Now after a lovely reunion, we see Sansa lie to Jon.  But she just doesn't lie, she makes comments that hurt him in a place where he is very vulnerable.  The comments about Ramsay being a bastard and the North followed Ramsay, so the North will follow bastard Jon just seemed deliberately hurtful.  Up to this moment, I had never considered Sansa cruel.  Either the lie was a mistake or Sansa has learned a few things she needs to unlearn.  

[permaximum]

7 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

Jon is a proven fighter and Commander. He was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is a capable swordsman. He may never have been in any (political) wars, but he has leadership experience and a Wildlings army in his pocket. If he plays his cards right, he can also play up the "gods on my side" card with him having been miraculously brought back to life (I doubt this will happen, though). 

Jon was made Lord Commander because of his leadership during the battle for the wall. He does have experience. 

 

LMAO  Karl Tanner from Gin Alley toyed with Jon like he's a 8 year old kid. When you say great fighters, let me give you some examples. Ser Barristan Selmy - a 67-year old man without any armor cut through 13 men against 14vs1 like carving a cake.. Ser Arthur Dayne WHO basically won 4vs1 against good fighters and one of them was Ned Stark. I can go on... The Mountain, The Hound, Khal Drogo, Rheager Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Daario Naharis, Jaime Lannister hell even Bronn, Brienne and more... Jon only killed some rapist and thief mutineers, some undiciplened wildlings including a thenn and a White walker which apperantly can be killed by Tarly and little children if you have the right equipment.

Jon also never won a war and only won just one battle. He lost or ran from every other battle... This CV doesn't look like a great commander's CV to me.

He even got himself killed for god's sake. Surely, he's not a leader. His qualities are his goodness, courage and determination. But those alone don't make a great commander or a great fighter. Those qualities just make us love him, that's all.

Jon is a capable fighter, standard-level commander and a bad leader. He's poor man's Ned Stark at this point. For some reason, people think good-hearted main characters with courage and will are also the greatest commanders, fighters, leaders, shcmers, plotters etc. That's not how reality works and George RR Martin talked about that countless times..