Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

9 minutes ago, boodofmyblood said:

I would agree if they hadn't specifically had Brienne ask Sansa why she didn't tell Jon about LF's offer if she trusts him- she was implying she doesn't. Sansa didn't answer her but the look on her face spoke for itself IMO. 

And this was all after LF's little jab about the army being Jon's not Sansa's and him only being her half-brother. My interpretation is that this little manipulation by LF worked. Makes me scared for what Sansa may or may not agree to in the finale. 

She pushed him and his friends into a battle without hope, didn't tell him about the Vale, what's good for her for not telling him? Because he will tell Ramsay? Lol She has no one but Jon by her side as the last sibling who is there and can fight. Arya is missing. Bran is cripped and also missing. She already gave up on Rickon. So technically she only has Jon as the family now but she still distrusts him. Is it because he's only her half-brother? It definitely seems so. She would never act like that if it were Robb by her side. 

Not to mention she already treats Jon this way when she still thinks of him as her half-brother. What will she do when she knows that he's actually a Targ and only her cousin? What frustrates me is that she plays the "family card" with Jon but Sansa herself doesn't trust her family. I'm not surprised she will be the one who will stabb Jon in the back in the future.

[Tagganaro]

18 minutes ago, boodofmyblood said:

I would agree if they hadn't specifically had Brienne ask Sansa why she didn't tell Jon about LF's offer if she trusts him- she was implying she doesn't. Sansa didn't answer her but the look on her face spoke for itself IMO. 

And this was all after LF's little jab about the army being Jon's not Sansa's and him only being her half-brother. My interpretation is that this little manipulation by LF worked. Makes me scared for what Sansa may or may not agree to when she meets with LF in the finale. 

Edit: I have no problem with what she did to Ramsay, though. 

It looks like we might be getting some further explanation on why she didn't tell Jon about this next week (based on the trailer).  I agree- it's been a very clunky plot thus far with several people acting out of character to service the plot.  My guess is it's gonna be some kind of continuation of the themes we get with Sansa confronting Jon this past episode- Sansa doesn't feel Jon values her opinion, she feels left out a little bit, and finally that LF got in her head a little bit about getting her own army because the wildlings are loyal to Jon.

I think we'll get some kind of affirmation of trust and love between Jon and Sansa next week (perhaps with LF being the casualty)...but yeah I have to agree it seems this plot was largely done to lead up to the Gandalfian moment with the Knights of the Vale and also to give Sansa her "save the day" moment."

[Maid So Fair]

2 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Id love to see this happen

I also find it hilarious how the fanbase refuses to let Lyanna Mormont 'Sandra' mistake go.

Which means that it probably won't . They new rules sem to do what I want them to with her.

Well, it's a handy shortcut to signify that you're talking about thahow only Sansa as she's so different from her book counterpart by this point. And it goes well with Larry and Carol.

 

[Red Tiger]

5 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Which means that it probably won't . They new rules sem to do what I want them to with her.

Well, it's a handy shortcut to signify that you're talking about thahow only Sansa as she's so different from her book counterpart by this point. And it goes well with Larry and Carol.

 

Reminds me of Renly's green eyes. The fandom remembers.

[Blackthorne5]

There's a lot of Sansa hate at the moment that isn't warranted in my opinion. Many seem to be disappointed that she isn't carrying on the tradition of Stark nobility even though that nobility did no favors for Robb or Ned.

Jon is admirable, yes, and he is a Stark through and through in his actions. But we have you remember that Sansa is naturally going to be a product of her past experiences. She has seen firsthand the result of idealistic notions of honor and honesty by her father's beheading. She was essentially raised in Kings Landing suffering from psychological torture and mental, emotional, and physically abused by those wielding power over her.

Then she cut her teeth on the teachings of the game from Littlefinger of all people. She learned treachery at his feet and from her perspective she has a better chance for survival using what she has learned from him than by remaining idealistic and having notions of heroes and champions. She's been failed by everyone who should have protected her and knows at this point that her wellbeing is dependent only upon her.

I cannot fault her for keeping her cards close to her vest. In her experience trust equals danger and betrayal of that trust. She's wisened up. Trust has no way helped her in the past.

She had no way of knowing whether Littlefinger would show and remain loyal to his promise to help him. She knows who and what he is. Additionally Jon was resistant to listening to her counsel and ended up doing exactly what she warned against. 

She in no way sacrificed Rickon. She knew Ramsey and knew Rickon was not long for this world either way.

[Future Null Infinity]

If only Grey Worm was in the battle of the bastards, he will single handedly kill half of the boltons army with his ninja moves

[Warsaw]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Bitch keeps saying her half brother must listen to her but refusing the information. I'm sorry but it's vile and stupid at the same time. If Jon died and the Vale army never came, then she's technically dead as well. 

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

[tallTale]

She basically kept the information from Jon because LF reminder her that Jon is her half brother. The seed was planted, Jon resisting her advice made the idea grow into a full out betrayal.  Jon is naive enough to not see it or not care and forgive her, but I bet she would have told Rob. 

[DarkerStar]

5 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

If Littlefinger is in the North, Jon can meet with him. Find out if he is coming himself.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

4 minutes ago, tallTale said:

She basically kept the information from Jon because LF reminder her that Jon is her half brother. The seed was planted, Jon resisting her advice made the idea grow into a full out betrayal.  Jon is naive enough to not see it or not care and forgive her, but I bet she would have told Rob. 

Exactly my point, after all she has been through, she's still a pawn and she doesn't realize that. She has been played by LF. 

And come to think of it, why did LF give her to the Bolton in the first place? He loves her that much yet he threw her away like that? It's stupid and illogic writing and all.

One reason I can think of is that LF expected Sansa to escape and come to the Wall and pull Jon away from the Night Watch. All LF needs might be a MALE Stark who can fight against the Bolton, after that LF might intend to get rid of that male Stark by using Sansa over and over again. And only Jon fits that plan. 

[hallam]

So much fun watching people who were spectacularly wrong about previous 'plot holes' making so many predictions that are going to be spectacularly wrong.

No, I don't think that there is anything wrong in Sansa's actions. Jon has already got himself killed once and he is insisting on an attack that is doomed to fail. Sansa doesn't want to bring LF in unless it is absolutely necessary and that is what she has decided.

Jon is playing for Winterfell and the battle with the WWs. Sansa has her eyes on Winterfell and also on settling scores in Kings Landing. She also realizes that despite the fact that LF is slippery as an eel, they might just need his cunning against the WWs and/or the Lannister forces.

Who is in charge of WF is now a complicated issue. Is it Jon, Sansa or LF? They all have claims. But Sansa is probably the only one who is actually going to press hers.

Right now LF is scheming for the Iron Throne. That is his end game. And he needs Sansa's help to take it. But he is completely unaware of two major threats, Danny and the WWs. Both of which make his plans utterly irrelevant. LF does not have dragons, a dothraki army or the Ironborn on his side.

Sansa knows what it is that LF wants. And that is why she does not tell Jon about the Vale army because she does not want Jon to owe anything to LF, only Sansa will be in debt to him. And then she can tell Jon the full facts and Jon will be unencumbered by loyalty to him.

Of course the folk complaining are the same folk who said that it was completely unnecessary for us to hear that Miranda was being thrown to the dogs. And before that they thought the 'Loras is gay' scene was gratuitous. And before that...

You have to wait at least three episodes before you can expect to see the point to any scene.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

14 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

So you're saying since the Vale army decided to come, they didn't send her any confirmation? You think LF would play hide and seek without sending any raven back to Sansa notifying her about his help? Lolll 

[joaozinm]

14 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

The fact that it was uncertain would be a good reason to delay the battle until you got an answer? I mean, maybe an entiry army was worthy waiting...

[Frejac]

13 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

No, she was supposed to trust her brother, tell him the truth, and then let him send someone in person to either confirm or deny if the Vale would come.

Besides, as I keep saying, there's nothing that would have prevented the Vale from surprise charging Ramsay after the Stark army drew him out.  The battle could have played out in the exact same way it did, except with fewer Stark casualties.

[helter skelter]

I don't ofc think sansa calculated this but if she told jon about the knights of vale and they waited for the support, ramsey would simply stay in winterfell until the winter breaks the siege. Also i don't remember a reply from baelish to sansa's letter if he is coming for aid. So plotwise vale support should be a surprise i think.

 

About sansa's pregnancy i don't think it is possible. Since ramsey last raped her, stannis failed in his attack, theon and sansa ran away, theon left for iron islands, euron elected, theon and yara left iron islands and reached meeren while jon and sansa try to rally north. I believe in that amount of time some physical changes should happen to a pregnant woman.

 

[farm_ecology]

14 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

Why is no one understanding that she COULDN'T tell him the Vale was coming simply because she didn't know for sure? What was she to do, get Jon all over-confident, trusting in an ally that may not appear at all? Also, they HAD to come at the end of the battle, or else Ramsay would just have fled into Winterfell (with ALL his men) and they would have to siege it, which sucks balls.

Its very clear Sansa knew they were coming. Hell she rode out to meet them.

You're telling me she couldn't have said "One sec Jon, I've arranged to meet LF in about an hour tonight, who has the army of the Vale with him, can you hang on a sec?"

I think at the end of the day, the reason she didn't tell Jon was for shock value. There is possible a justification in there that she thought Jon would be adverse to enlisting the help (and being in debt) with LF after what happened to Ned. She had hoped the battle would be prolonged long enough for her and the army to arrive before they were slaughtered.

[Bear Claw]

23 minutes ago, Blackthorne5 said:

There's a lot of Sansa hate at the moment that isn't warranted in my opinion. Many seem to be disappointed that she isn't carrying on the tradition of Stark nobility even though that nobility did no favors for Robb or Ned.

Jon is admirable, yes, and he is a Stark through and through in his actions. But we have you remember that Sansa is naturally going to be a product of her past experiences. She has seen firsthand the result of idealistic notions of honor and honesty by her father's beheading. She was essentially raised in Kings Landing suffering from psychological torture and mental, emotional, and physically abused by those wielding power over her.

Then she cut her teeth on the teachings of the game from Littlefinger of all people. She learned treachery at his feet and from her perspective she has a better chance for survival using what she has learned from him than by remaining idealistic and having notions of heroes and champions. She's been failed by everyone who should have protected her and knows at this point that her wellbeing is dependent only upon her.

I cannot fault her for keeping her cards close to her vest. In her experience trust equals danger and betrayal of that trust. She's wisened up. Trust has no way helped her in the past.

She had no way of knowing whether Littlefinger would show and remain loyal to his promise to help him. She knows who and what he is. Additionally Jon was resistant to listening to her counsel and ended up doing exactly what she warned against. 

She in no way sacrificed Rickon. She knew Ramsey and knew Rickon was not long for this world either way.

I agree with you. Also, it has been awhile since I have read the books, but were the Starks always known for their honor? From what I have read, Brandon Stark (oldest) didn't seem very honorable. I don't recall much mention of their father, but I was struck by Bran's vision in the show this year. The grandfather didn't emphasize honor to young Ned. 

[Blackthorne5]

9 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

So you're saying since the Vale army decided to come, they didn't send her any confirmation? You think LF would play hide and seek without sending any raven back to Sansa notifying her about his help? Lolll 

Sansa knows LF. Confirmation and promises or no there was no way of knowing for sure whether he would get there and decide to partner with Ramsay instead, or bow out altogether. Littlefinger does what is best for Littlefinger.

[Blackthorne5]

9 minutes ago, joaozinm said:

The fact that it was uncertain would be a good reason to delay the battle until you got an answer? I mean, maybe an entiry army was worthy waiting...

Jon already stated that he would not delay the battle even though she urged him to wait.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

2 minutes ago, Blackthorne5 said:

Sansa knows LF. Confirmation and promises or no there was no way of knowing for sure whether he would get there and decide to partner with Ramsay instead, or bow out altogether. Littlefinger does what is best for Littlefinger.

Wrong logic. It's an entire Army not a promise of lending her some money. An Army coming is a big thing. If LF wants to ignore her and let her to die, he would just not reply or write a refusal like what all the other Northern houses have done. Sansa surely knew that the Vale army would come. She might not know when they will come. However that doesn't give her the reason to keep it from Jon. She only needs to tell him, there's the Vale army but I can't tell when they will come.