Varys Did Not Intend for Tyrion to Kill Tywin

[Lost Melnibonean]

Varys did not intend for Tyrion to kill Tywin...

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"I commanded the eunuch to take him to a ship, not to your bedchamber," he told the corpse. "The blood is on his hands as much as . . . as Tyrion's." The blood is on his hands as much as mine, he meant to say, but the words stuck in his throat. Whatever Varys did, I made him do.

He had waited in the eunuch's chambers that night, when at last he had decided not to let his little brother die. As he waited, he had sharpened his dagger with one hand, taking a queer comfort from the scrape-scrape-scrape of steel on stone. At the sound of footsteps he stood beside the door. Varys entered in a wash of powder and lavender. Jaime stepped out behind him, kicked him in the back of the knee, knelt on his chest, and shoved the knife up under his soft white chin, forcing his head up. "Why, Lord Varys," he'd said pleasantly, "fancy meeting you here."

"Ser Jaime?" Varys panted. "You frightened me."

"I meant to." When he twisted the dagger, a trickle of blood ran down the blade. "I was thinking you might help me pluck my brother from his cell before Ser Ilyn lops his head off. It is an ugly head, I grant you, but he only has the one."

"Yes . . . well . . . if you would . . . remove the blade . . . yes, gently, as it please my lord, gently, oh, I'm pricked . . ." The eunuch touched his neck and gaped at the blood on his fingers. "I have always abhorred the sight of my own blood."

"You'll have more to abhor shortly, unless you help me."

Varys struggled to a sitting position. "Your brother . . . if the Imp should vanish unaccountably from his cell, q-questions would be asked. I would f-fear for my life . . ."

"Your life is mine. I do not care what secrets you know. If Tyrion dies, you will not long outlive him, I promise you."

"Ah." The eunuch sucked the blood off his fingers. "You ask a dreadful thing . . . to loose the Imp who slew our lovely king. Or is it that you believe him innocent?"

"Innocent or guilty," Jaime had said, like the fool he was, "a Lannister pays his debts." The words had come so easy.

Jaime I, Feast 8

Perhaps Varys intended to free the imp; perhaps not. But Varys did not take any steps to suggest that he intended for Tyrion to kill Tywin...

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A light appeared ahead of them, too dim to be daylight, and grew as they hurried toward it. After a while he could see it was an arched doorway, closed off by another iron gate. Varys produced a key. They stepped through into a small round chamber. Five other doors opened off the room, each barred in iron. There was an opening in the ceiling as well, and a series of rungs set in the wall below, leading upward. An ornate brazier stood to one side, fashioned in the shape of a dragon's head. The coals in the beast's yawning mouth had burnt down to embers, but they still glowed with a sullen orange light. Dim as it was, the light was welcome after the blackness of the tunnel.

The juncture was otherwise empty, but on the floor was a mosaic of a three-headed dragon wrought in red and black tiles. Something niggled at Tyrion for a moment. Then it came to him. This is the place Shae told me of, when Varys first led her to my bed. "We are below the Tower of the Hand."

Tyrion XI, Storm 77

That reminded Tyrion of this...

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He sent Pod for a flagon of wine and pushed his way into his bedchamber.

Shae sat cross-legged in the canopied bed, nude but for the heavy golden chain that looped across the swell of her breasts: a chain of linked golden hands, each clasping the next.

Tyrion had not expected her. "What are you doing here?"

Laughing, she stroked the chain. "I wanted some hands on my titties . . . but these little gold ones are cold."

For a moment he did know what to say. How could he tell her that another woman had taken the beating meant for her, and might well die in her place should some mischance of battle fell Joffrey? He wiped Alayaya's blood from his brow with the heel of his hand. "The Lady Lollys—"

"She's asleep. Sleep's all she ever wants to do, the great cow. She sleeps and she eats. Sometimes she falls asleep while she's eating. The food falls under the blankets and she rolls in it, and I have to clean her." She made a disgusted face. "All they did was fuck her."

"Her mother says she's sick."

"She has a baby in her belly, that's all."

Tyrion gazed around the room. Everything seemed much as he left it. "How did you enter? Show me the hidden door."

She gave a shrug. "Lord Varys made me wear a hood. I couldn't see, except . . . there was one place, I got a peep at the floor out the bottom of the hood. It was all tiles, you know, the kind that make a picture?"

"A mosaic?"

Shae nodded. "They were colored red and black. I think the picture was a dragon. Otherwise, everything was dark. We went down a ladder and walked a long ways, until I was all twisted around. Once we stopped so he could unlock an iron gate. I brushed against it when we went through. The dragon was past the gate. Then we went up another ladder, with a tunnel at the top. I had to stoop, and I think Lord Varys was crawling."

Tyrion made a round of the bedchamber. One of the sconces looked loose. He stood on his toes and tried to turn it. It revolved slowly, scraping against the stone wall. When it was upside down, the stub of the candle fell out. The rushes scattered across the cold stone floor did not show any particular disturbance. "Doesn't m'lord want to bed me?" asked Shae.

"In a moment." Tyrion threw open his wardrobe, shoved the clothing aside, and pushed against the rear panel. What worked for a whorehouse might work for a castle as well . . . but no, the wood was solid, unyielding. A stone beside the window seat drew his eye, but all his tugging and prodding went for naught. He returned to the bed frustrated and annoyed.

Tyrion XII, Clash 54

If Varys had intended to inspire Tyrion to kill Tywin, he would have done more than just lead him past a mosaic that Tyron might or might not have recalled someone telling him about. Here, we see that Varys is trying to get Tyrion to move along, not to go up the ladder to commit patricide...

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"Yes." Frozen hinges screamed in protest as Varys pulled open a long-closed door. Flakes of rust drifted to the floor. "This will take us out to the river."

Tyrion walked slowly to the ladder, ran his hand across the lowest rung. "This will take me up to my bedchamber."

"Your lord father's bedchamber now."

He looked up the shaft. "How far must I climb?"

"My lord, you are too weak for such follies, and there is besides no time. We must go."

Tyrion XI, Storm 77

The best counterargument is found here, where Varys tells Tyrion precisely how to get to Tywin’s bedchamber...

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"I have business above. How far?"

"Two hundred and thirty rungs, but whatever you intend—"

"Two hundred and thirty rungs, and then?"

"The tunnel to the left, but hear me—"

"How far along to the bedchamber?" Tyrion lifted a foot to the lowest rung of the ladder.

"No more than sixty feet. Keep one hand on the wall as you go. You will feel the doors. The bedchamber is the third." He sighed. "This is folly, my lord. Your brother has given you your life back. Would you cast it away, and mine with it?"

"Varys, the only thing I value less than my life just now is yours. Wait for me here." He turned his back on the eunuch and began to climb, counting silently as he went.

Tyrion XI, Storm 77

But Varys didn’t really have a choice. Tyrion was determined to visit Tywin, and Varys understood that Tyrion meant to kill him. Otherwise, Tyrion would not have told Varys to wait for him. Of course, Varys was perfectly happy to let Tyrion kill Tywin.

Here is the follow-up in Dance for completeness...

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Varys had escorted him through the tunnels, but they never spoke until they emerged beside the Blackwater, where Tyrion had won a famous victory and lost a nose. That was when the dwarf turned to the eunuch and said, "I've killed my father," in the same tone a man might use to say, "I've stubbed my toe."

The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head. "You should not have climbed that ladder," he said reproachfully.

"Wherever whores go." Tyrion had warned his father not to say that word. If I had not loosed, he would have seen my threats were empty. He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms. He was rising when I killed him.

"I killed Shae too," he confessed to Varys.

"You knew what she was."

"I did. But I never knew what he was."

Varys tittered. "And now you do."

Tyrion I, Dance 1

[BricksAndSparrows]

It's not strange to believe that Varys would do something like that, but showing Tyrion to the secret door, was not a surefire way to see Tyrion dead.

It's a pickle though, because by the end of the last book, you get impression Varys wanted Tywin dead. But I tend to believe Jamie forced his plan and so Varys visit Ser Kevan was more like improvisation than an original feature of the long con.

So much could have gone wrong with Hitman Tyrion. If Shae had screamed when she saw Tyrion, (I'm surprised she didn't,) if Tywin hadn't been caught with his pants down, if Tyrion stepped on a squeaky board or just couldn't pull the trigger...Just so many thing...

Why risk Tyrion blowing it? Set Tyrion loose of do whatever you like with him. Vary could have had Tywin killed by someone more capable and not risked Tyrion getting nabbed.

 

[Maxxine]

3 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

It's not strange to believe that Varys would do something like that, but showing Tyrion to the secret door, was not a surefire way to see Tyrion dead.

It's a pickle though, because by the end of the last book, you get impression Varys wanted Tywin dead. But I tend to believe Jamie forced his plan and so Varys visit Ser Kevan was more like improvisation than an original feature of the long con.

So much could have gone wrong with Hitman Tyrion. If Shae had screamed when she saw Tyrion, (I'm surprised she didn't,) if Tywin hadn't been caught with his pants down, if Tyrion stepped on a squeaky board or just couldn't pull the trigger...Just so many thing...

Why risk Tyrion blowing it? Set Tyrion loose of do whatever you like with him. Vary could have had Tywin killed by someone more capable and not risked Tyrion getting nabbed.

 

This. I tend to think people on here tend to give Varys too much credit. I recognize how he's planned certain things and has his hand in a lot. But people act as if he could have predicted the most unpredictable things and thus planned those unpredictable things. If Varys wanted Tywin dead there were surefire ways to do it, like how he killed Kevan for instance. The lack of real resistance to Tyrion's request is interesting, I admit. But I can't say it was a real plan for Tyrion to kill Tywin especially considering the situation. Tyrion could have easily been caught and told about Varys helping, which would have put Varys in danger, which we know Varys is averse to.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I mean he was forced by Jaime to let Tyrion out. He couldn't have possibly predicted what Tyrion would want to do and then tries to talk him out of it, as he knows that Tyrion being discovered would almost certainly be linked to him disappearing and more likely for him to die.

So I guess I'm just confused as to why this brought up so much elaboration and expansion.

[BricksAndSparrows]

25 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

This. I tend to think people on here tend to give Varys too much credit. I recognize how he's planned certain and has his hand in a lot. But people act as if he could have predicted the most unpredictable things and thus planned those unpredictable things. If Varys wanted Tywin dead there were surefire ways to do it, like how he killed Kevan for instance. The lack of real resistance to Tyrion's request is interesting, I admit. But I can't say it was a real plan for Tyrion to kill Tywin especially considering the situation. Tyrion could have easily been caught and told about Varys helping, which would have put Varys in danger, which we know Varys is averse to.

Totally. It's like people don't imagine how silly and contrived it would sound for GRRM to explain every step of Varys manipulation.

"And I delivered a damning testimony and the trial because I knew Tyrion would crack and demand trial by battle, and Oberyn would champion him, and lose because he was obsessed with a confession, and Jamie would bully me into releasing, Tyrion, and I knew Tywin would be taking a shit (I slipped him a few extra dornish peppers) and he would call Tysha a whore, and..."

This is A Song of Ice and Fire, not Old Boy.

[Lion of the West]

To start with I don't either think that Varys had planned on Tyrion killing Tywin for a long time but I do think that he got an oppertunity, and then used it. In that way he is skilled in how he can use an oppertunity that presents itself rather than being in shock when if his pre-made plan are thrown into disarray.

As such I don't find it at all odd that Varys would use his tour with Tyrion to see if he can't have the Imp assassinate Tywin and so kill two birds in one stroke; both ensuring that Tywin dies and that Tyrion will be forever blamed as also a kinslayer and thus make him tied even more strongly tied to benefactors for success in his future.

When he leads Tyrion past the mosaic there's a chance that Tyrion will not seek his father's death and if he don't, no loss for Varys as the Spider can strike at a later time to kill the Hand. And do recall that Varys knows to play the game with Tyrion since when Tyrion was Hand. If Varys urges Tyrion on, Tyrion could well become suspecious and thus its better for Varys to ensure that Tyrion thinks that he does everything by his own free will with sublte hints that Tyrion can't know are coming from Varys directly. Similar to how Varys explained the possible plot for Cersei to kill Robert during the melee in the first book.

As such I am entirely sure that when Varys learned that Jaime was looking for him, he started to arrange things for the Tywin's assassination in case that Tyrion would take the bait. And if Tyrion didn't, no harm for Varys. And do recall later on that Varys could hide when the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was on to him, and then proceed to assassinate both Grand Maester and the Lord Regent without anyone stopping him, thus even if Tyrion would have talked to Tywin about Varys' part there's no doubt to that think that Varys would find himself in mortal danger.

[Lord Varys]

@Lost Melnibonean makes a bunch of claims. But considering that he is not Varys he does not really know what Varys would have done or does when he tries to accomplish a goal. Thus this

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Varys had intended to inspire Tyrion to kill Tywin, he would have done more than just lead him past a mosaic that Tyron might or might not have recalled someone telling him about. Here, we see that Varys is trying to get Tyrion to move along, not to go up the ladder to commit patricide...

is just a baseless claim.

If you actually check how Varys gets people to do what he wants them to do without them realizing it then it is not far-fetched to assume the man can mess with your head by giving the impression he does not want you to do something.

Remember how he convinced Barristan Selmy to rediscover his allegiance to House Targaryen. In ACoK we learn that Varys had the idea to blame Selmy for Robert's death. And in AGoT we can read how he poisons Selmy's mind against Joffrey and Cersei by pointing out that Lord Tywin has granted him some land and a tower in the West (Tywin doesn't know anything about that, by the way) where he could spend the remainder of his life.

One could easily assume or argue that Varys meant every word of that, too. But then, we do know where Selmy later showed up, do we not?

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But Varys didn’t really have a choice. Tyrion was determined to visit Tywin, and Varys understood that Tyrion meant to kill him. Otherwise, Tyrion would not have told Varys to wait for him. Of course, Varys was perfectly happy to let Tyrion kill Tywin.

Varys most certainly had a choice. Tyrion was at Varys' mercy the moment he and Jaime parted. Tyrion is a dwarf and Varys is a normal-sized man. And for all we know Varys' little birds were all around them hiding in some tunnels. Varys was never in any danger from Tyrion and if Varys had wanted he could have dragged Tyrion into that ship with his permission or without it.

It is quite clear that Varys had no way to predict what would happen when Tyrion climbed that ladder but he obviously was willing to take the risk and see what would happen. The outcome should be to his advantage in any case, and even if not he could easily and quickly rectify this by visiting Tywin himself a few hours later or have his little birds slip some poison into his breakfast.

He would have known that Shae was up there - it is very likely that he himself brought her up there earlier that evening. He also had the means to know that Shae had told Tyrion about the chamber beneath the Tower of the Hand with the dragon mosaic because Shae and Tyrion were talking about that at a place Varys' little birds could overhear them speak.

[dariopatke]

I think Varys posioned Tywin and wanted to blame Oberyn ( after all Oberyn told us he would have been no1 suspect if Tyrion wasnt) in order to poison any alliance between Dorne and IT. With Oberyn dead people will start asking questions and he may be in danger, but if he somehow leads Tyrion to kill Tywin (which he did), no one will blame Varys for killing Tywin, some might blame him for releasing Tyrion, but he can always say Jaime forced him and it is much smaller crime than killing High Lord and Hand  of the King. Varys has a reputation to maintain be ause he likely expects to return to Aegons SC. Why did he have to kill Tywin? Because Realm was really unified at that point and he needed chaos, it is the same with Kevan (they were killed in similar matter like Kevan noticed) and Aegon will need every house he can get.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I mean he was forced by Jaime to let Tyrion out. He couldn't have possibly predicted what Tyrion would want to do and then tries to talk him out of it, as he knows that Tyrion being discovered would almost certainly be linked to him disappearing and more likely for him to die.

So I guess I'm just confused as to why this brought up so much elaboration and expansion.

Oberyn poisoned Tywin. This passage seals the deal for me...

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Joffrey brought Widow's Wail down in a savage twohanded slice, onto the book that Tyrion had given him.

...

"I once had the great good fortune to see the Citadel's copy of Lives of Four Kings," Prince Oberyn was telling her lord husband. "The illuminations were wondrous to behold, but Kaeth was too kind by half to King Viserys."

Tyrion gave him a sharp look. "Too kind? He scants Viserys shamefully, in my view. It should have been Lives of Five Kings."

The prince laughed. "Viserys hardly reigned a fortnight."

"He reigned more than a year," said Tyrion.

Oberyn gave a shrug. "A year or a fortnight, what does it matter? He poisoned his own nephew to gain the throne and then did nothing once he had it."

"Baelor starved himself to death, fasting," said Tyrion. "His uncle served him loyally as Hand, as he had served the Young Dragon before him. Viserys might only have reigned a year, but he ruled for fifteen, while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed." He made a sour face. "And if he did remove his nephew, can you blame him? Someone had to save the realm from Baelor's follies."

Sansa was shocked. "But Baelor the Blessed was a great king. He walked the Boneway barefoot to make peace with Dorne, and rescued the Dragonknight from a snakepit. The vipers refused to strike him because he was so pure and holy."

Prince Oberyn smiled. "If you were a viper, my lady, would you want to bite a bloodless stick like Baelor the Blessed? I'd sooner save my fangs for someone juicier . . . "

 

Sansa IV, Storm 59

After Oberyn observes Joffrey abuse Tyrion, the Red Viper oh so subtly suggests that Tyrion should poison his nephew, just as some believe Viserys II poisoned his nephew Baelor I. Then, Oberyn suggests that he would rather poison someone juicier--Tywin. 

And we have this...

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Lord Tywin's face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he'd drunk some poisoned wine as well.

Tyrion X, Storm 70

[chrisdaw]

Ofcourse Varys didn't, the idea has always been nonsense. That Tyrion is so important to him that he needs to destroy Tyrion's Lannister link is just absurd, and he could have had Tywin offed and gone to ground at any stage he wanted, much more surely in another manner, just as he did Kevan. Varys planned to stay above ground for a while longer atleast, hence why he played Jaime's game in the first place, though he may have had some inclination to save Tyrion from a personal perspective, but it didn't turn out that he could stay in the open, that's ok, he's adaptable.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

[snip]

Totally. There's also the ghastly description of Tywin's corpse.

Oberyn made sure he screwed both his enemies over even if he died.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Totally. There's also the ghastly description of Tywin's corpse.

Oberyn made sure he screwed both his enemies over even if he died.

You mean the creepy, stinky smile?

To me, that was Oberyn's final middlefinger to the Lannister's.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You mean the creepy, stinky smile?

To me, that was Oberyn's final middlefinger to the Lannister's.

Yep...and all the emphasis on the unusual stink from his corpse even though Pycelle said that the silent sisters had taken every care they could...

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“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “

 

[Lord Wraith]

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You mean the creepy, stinky smile?

To me, that was Oberyn's final middlefinger to the Lannister's.

Absolutely true IMO. No point leaving the only man capable of keeping House Lannister strong alive if you plan to rebel in the near future.

[dariopatke]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Absolutely true IMO. No point leaving the only man capable of keeping House Lannister strong alive if you plan to rebel in the near future.

But what about Doran saying him and Oberyn wanting to take everything from Tywin before killing him?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

But what about Doran saying him and Oberyn wanting to take everything from Tywin before killing him?

Hmm... Would you please kindly direct me to the relevant passage? 

[Lord Wraith]

16 hours ago, dariopatke said:

But what about Doran saying him and Oberyn wanting to take everything from Tywin before killing him?

What you want vs what is prudent action. Or Doran is simply lying, either works.

[John Suburbs]

There are any number of possibilities here:

Varys might not have intended for Tyrion to kill Tywin, but he certainly know what Tyrion was thinking when he gave him step-by-step instructions to the Hand's chambers. And yet he did nothing to stop him, so a living Tywin was certainly not germane to any of Varys' plans.

Could it be Varys already knew Tywin was a dead man? Maybe the notion of fratricide was more appealing for destabilizing Westeros in preparation for fAegon.

Could it be that he feared Tyrion would kill him if he did not reveal how to get to Tywin? Or maybe he just felt sympathy for the little guy, and maybe a little guilt for throwing him under the bus at the trial?

Or maybe Varys had intended to free Tyrion all along, and put the suggestion in his head that he could kill his father -- although without Jaime's revelation about Tysha, it's hard to see Tyrion having the motivation to climb all that way and do the deed.

 

 

[Elisabetta Duò]

I didn't even know there was people suggesting Varys did intend for Tyrion to kill Tywin. 

[Runaway Penguin]

I do not think Varys intended it - maybe he knew already Tywin was poisoned (if he did not do the deed himself). But since his plan counts on bringing the Lannisters down, having Tyrion sow some more chaos (which he would have either way) could not harm. Who knows, maybe little birds were ready to stab Tywin if Tyrion got caught by him.