US Politics 2016: Delay the Electoral College Vote?

[Swordfish]

5 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The Democrats are as accepting the E.C as Trump is accepting that he lost the popular vote, bigly, and has a mandate.

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of.

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of.

It is the reality we are in.

[Swordfish]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

It is the reality we are in.

 

I agree.  I'm just saying, I don't necessarily think one offsets the other.  Trump's claims of winning the popular vote do not diminish the refusal of many on the left to accept the results of the election as valid.

It is generally good form to at least attempt to avoid becoming just like that which we despise.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, Squab said:

How far removed from reality does one have to be to not accept reality when it arrives?

1. Denial - #notmypresident and Russia
2. Anger - Riots
3. Bargaining - Recount and electoral college hilarity
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

I understand some people need to move through each stage but why regress back to denial. Does false hope actually help people grieve?

Just to point out -- the idea that people move through this set of emotions in this precise order in terms of reactions to grief has been pretty much disproved by actual research. This is a good list of the emotional reactions one does see, but they do not proceed neatly in any particular order and people often go back and forth between them or blend them at different times in their grieving process.

[TheKitttenGuard]

11 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

 

I agree.  I'm just saying, I don't necessarily think one offsets the other.  Trump's claims of winning the popular vote do not diminish the refusal of many on the left to accept the results of the election as valid.

It is generally good form to at least attempt to avoid becoming just like that which we despise.

When someone wins who breaks all these norms and is celebrated for it in many ways I do not see how others will not look to adopt some or many of the methods.

Liberals, Democrats et al. are only human.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, I'll just say, that for years I've watched conservatives become hysterical, irrational, and delusional. I have no desire to see the left or liberals go down the same road.

There is plenty of facts and logic to criticize Trump, Republicans, and conservatives. Hysteria and irrationality are not needed.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Vox continues to put out excellent pieces worthy of the best journalism long forms out there. Sarah Kliff has been the healthcare rep, and she's done a long talk to Kentucky residents about the future of Obamacare. It's sad, enlightening and crushing. 

One example of how it's been bad for people:

And another from those who it's helped:

 

The real kicker if you read the whole article is the husband of the woman who's quoted in your second quote has a serious liver issue. He's on a donor list for a transplant, and they are desperately hoping that he gets a donor before the repeal goes into effect. Oh yeah, and both of them voted for Trump.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Even if it's revealed that Russia hacked the shit out of everything in order to influence the election, the EC vote shouldn't be delayed.  People voted, this is the result.  Unless the investigation shows that Russia actually hacked voting machines, or took the last three years of flu shots designated for use in the US and were actually splicing in a "pull the Trump lever" gene, this is just stupid.  There are many problems with elections in this country but I can't see what delaying this would even do.   We should have mandatory recounts, rethink the EC, EC representation, House size, first past the post, etc.  

 

Say it turns out that Russia somehow influenced the election.  What do we do?  Revote?   

 

We do a Rose revolution.  Like they did in Russia.

[LongRider]

41 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

The real kicker if you read the whole article is the husband of the woman who's quoted in your second quote has a serious liver issue. He's on a donor list for a transplant, and they are desperately hoping that he gets a donor before the repeal goes into effect. Oh yeah, and both of them voted for Trump.

Arrrghh!  I don't know how to sort out my feelings for these people. 

Rant, rant, rant, rant, incoherent rant, ranty fucking rant!   I don't want to see people go without healthcare as I've been in those shoes and it just sux.  But did they think repeal doesn't mean repeal?  The R's never had a replacement, did they forget that?

Arrrgghhhh!

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, LongRider said:

Arrrghh!  I don't know how to sort out my feelings for these people. 

Rant, rant, rant, rant, incoherent rant, ranty fucking rant!   I don't want to see people go without healthcare as I've been in those shoes and it just sux.  But did they think repeal doesn't mean repeal?  The R's never had a replacement, did they forget that?

Arrrgghhhh!

Yeah, I don't wish them any ill will, but it is extremely frustrating. You have to wonder if they were paying attention at all.

[LongRider]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I don't wish them any ill will, but it is extremely frustrating. You have to wonder if they were paying attention at all.

Did the campaign slogan "I'll repeal Obamacare on day one!" mean nothing to them?   Plus, the R's played the, lets play at repealing game and the don't do anything that might help the ACA improve and work on some of it's problems so it will fail game.

{many profanities right here!}   Not interested in seeing my fellow citizens suffer, lose their houses and be homeless over 'repeal and delay*' but seriously, it could so happen, and is sooooooo wrong.  

 

*delay until you are dead

[The Anti-Targ]

What an odd thing to demand, delaying the EC vote. Foreign interference in the election to the extent the CIA has stated is not going to invalidate the election, hence Trump remains president. Any treasonous collusion in the hacks by US citizens other than Trump and Pence, isn't going to invalidate the election. Hence Trump remains president. If Trump gets duly elected and sworn in and after that there is hard evidence he was directly involved in the hacks, then there is a mechanism in place to remove him from office and Pence becomes president. Given this safeguard exists it seems completely unnecessary to delay the ECV even in the unlikely event that Trump is guilty of something impeachable in relation to the hacks.

On another note: I guess at least with so many corporate CEOs in charge of the government we'll finally get a chance to see if running govt really is the same as running a business.

[Jaxom 1974]

It hurts my brain when thinking about it though, George...

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, Swordfish said:

Tales of the 'acceptance of the election result' from the left.

It almost requires it's own thread at this point.

It's complete nonsense of course.  I mean, what would be the result here?  a whole new election?  No one in their right mind should even be entertaining something like this as reasonable.

I dunno, there are a large number of voices on the left who are saying let's not do this, which includes every lefty contributing to this thread so far. So I think acceptance among the left is more widespread than you want to make out.

What there is is a level of incredulity that this (NPV/ECV divergence) has happened again under essentially the same circumstances (end of a Democrat's 2 terms as pres, Republican candidate largely seen as a bit of a joke - on the part of the left at least, only this time there isn't a blame the 3rd party candidate option).

[All-for-Joffrey]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Did the campaign slogan "I'll repeal Obamacare on day one!" mean nothing to them?   Plus, the R's played the, lets play at repealing game and the don't do anything that might help the ACA improve and work on some of it's problems so it will fail game.

{many profanities right here!}   Not interested in seeing my fellow citizens suffer, lose their houses and be homeless over 'repeal and delay*' but seriously, it could so happen, and is sooooooo wrong.  

 

*delay until you are dead

It's the whole "take Trump seriously but not literally" shit. No -- you need to take politicians and their proposals literally, precisely for this reason. I hate to sound callous, but this is some Darwin Award level shit.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I don't wish them any ill will, but it is extremely frustrating. You have to wonder if they were paying attention at all.

What's the line between wishing someone ill and generally not having much empathy for them?  I'd like to think there's a real difference there as I don't with these people ill but do have a hard time empathizing.  How could you not be weary of Republicans taking your new Obamacare insurance.  You must have been paying zero attention or are willfully ignorant.  

That reminds me of something that will seem like a big jump from here, but bear with me.  Years ago there was some debate on the US politics board about the "both parties are the same" phenomenon.  My, how unbelievably different they are.  One party puts people in the EPA devoted to protecting the environment.  Another puts people in devoted to stopping the department from protecting the environment.  One party wants to expand access to health insurance.  The other party wants to shrink access to health insurance.  One party wants to expand access to public education.  One wants to lmit access to public education.  One could go on.  

[Dr. Pepper]

My President Was Black by Ta-Nehisi Coates.

It's long and there isn't just one quotable section.  Fair warning, it will leave you in tears.

[ThinkerX]

I posted a link or two in the past thread (or was it the one before that?) where at least a few individual Electors have either said they are not voting for Trump, or are actively looking for a way not to do so.  Dr Peppers post in the last thread about Electors seeking intelligence briefings on the Russian hacking is in accord with this. 

As I understand it, a major *original* purpose of the Electoral College was to prevent somebody just like Trump from taking office, though this devolved (?) into an iffy theoretical through lack of use. 

So what happens if -

1 - a few Electors, say half a dozen, vote the other way?  (possible to probable at this point from news reports)

2 - enough Electors either abstain from voting or vote the other way to give Clinton the victory? (unlikely but just barely possible, again going from news reports.)

Riots? Loons with guns declaring 'open season' on 'traitors?' Lawsuits? State of Emergency?

[All-for-Joffrey]

26 minutes ago, Triskan said:

What's the line between wishing someone ill and generally not having much empathy for them?  I'd like to think there's a real difference there as I don't with these people ill but do have a hard time empathizing.  How could you not be weary of Republicans taking your new Obamacare insurance.  You must have been paying zero attention or are willfully ignorant.  

That reminds me of something that will seem like a big jump from here, but bear with me.  Years ago there was some debate on the US politics board about the "both parties are the same" phenomenon.  My, how unbelievably different they are.  One party puts people in the EPA devoted to protecting the environment.  Another puts people in devoted to stopping the department from protecting the environment.  One party wants to expand access to health insurance.  The other party wants to shrink access to health insurance.  One party wants to expand access to public education.  One wants to lmit access to public education.  One could go on.  

This was probably an accurate assessment years ago. It no longer holds true due to the hard right shift the Republicans have taken in recent years. It's left us with one ultraconservative party that now has strong fascist elements and one centrist* corporatist party. 

*Centrist by American standards. A lot of Democrats would still be firmly center-right in most European countries though. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, All-for-Joffrey said:

This was probably an accurate assessment years ago. It no longer holds true due to the hard right shift the Republicans have taken in recent years. It's left us with one ultraconservative party that now has strong fascist elements and one centrist corporatist party. 

I would argue that while it may be more pronounced now, it was never true.  

Moving on to some other news of the day about how an alleged "typo" between Clinton staffers may have allowed the hackers in:

 

 

Quote

 

Hundreds of similar phishing emails were being sent to American political targets, including an identical email sent on March 19 to Mr. Podesta, chairman of the Clinton campaign. Given how many emails Mr. Podesta received through this personal email account, several aides also had access to it, and one of them noticed the warning email, sending it to a computer technician to make sure it was legitimate before anyone clicked on the "change password" button.

"This is a legitimate email," Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, replied to another of Mr. Podesta’s aides, who had noticed the alert. "John needs to change his password immediately."

With another click, a decade of emails that Mr. Podesta maintained in his Gmail account — a total of about 60,000 — were unlocked for the Russian hackers. Mr. Delavan, in an interview, said that his bad advice was a result of a typo: He knew this was a phishing attack, as the campaign was getting dozens of them. He said he had meant to type that it was an "illegitimate" email, an error that he said has plagued him ever since.

 

 

 

He didn't just mess up "legitimate" v. "illegitimate."  He also messed up "an/a."  Expressed the exact opposite of what was intended.  I think it's almost more likely that they made a mistake on the assessment of the phishing scam as unreal is that would seem.