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Barbrey Dustin

Bran vs. Jaime

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Posted (edited)

Bran vs. Jaime is really something that I look forward to in the novels.  The show is too sensitive to the opinions of the more vocal fans to do this and will likely just sweep what Jaime did to Bran under the table because Jaime is a fan favorite on the show.  George will address this issue in the books.  One way or another, Bran and the Starks will find out who pushed him out of that tower window.  Bran, Arya, and Jon will not forgive this. 

I differ from most fans in believing that the main conflict in the story is not about man vs. the others.  It's man vs. man.  My opinion is also that the Starks are no better than any other clan.  Most of the Starks are not the honorable guy that Eddard was.  I believe the most important  battles in the story will be personal for each character and it is the struggle within to forgive or to seek "justice".  In this regard, I think characters like Bran Stark, Arya Stark, Jon Snow, Cersei Lannister, Doran Martell, Stoneheart, Stannis, and the families in the north who lost a loved one at the red wedding will be the main hindrance in uniting everybody.  The Boltons, Euron, and Littlefinger are the agitators who rock the boat to complicate matters, but the big conflict will play out within each character.  It's not about the big battles.  It's about the hard decisions that people make.   Samwell, Daenerys, Tyrion, and other reasonable people similar to Ellaria Sand are the solution to the problem.  The slave masters in Essos are Dany's sparring partners.  Young Daenerys will hone and develop her skills at ruling in the most inhospitable situation possible: entrenched slaving culture, guerilla warfare, and hidden terrorists.  I can see her having to reconquer the kingdoms to rebuild the country back up.   I don't believe Jon is the answer to this problem because he is too involved in the situation and he's too invested in the Starks to be objective and rational.  Samwell, Daenerys, Marwyn, and Tyrion will contribute towards the rebuilding of the country and in reuniting the kingdoms into one kingdom.

  1. Will the north forgive the Freys?
  2. Can the Starks forgive Theon?
  3. Can Dany forgive the families who rebelled against her father?
  4. Can Jon forgive Bowen?
  5. Can Jaime forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin?
  6. Can Bran forgive Jaime?
  7. Will Arya choose to continue to work on her hit list?  Arya is definitely a major part of the problem. 
  8. Stoneheart makes the situation worse and she is an impediment to future unification. 

 

 

 

Edited by Barbrey Dustin

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Well Catelyn knew Jaime chucked Bran out the window and he is unknowingly on his way to see her right now. So we will get to see that one pretty quickly, it should have actually happened well before the last chapter in Dance of Dragons according to the timelines.

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Jaime wins that battle 10 times out of 10. A 7 year old is realistically never going to win a contest against a grown man, and his possible transformation into a tree won't help.

Oh wait you meant the character arcs. Well I can and harshly judge Jaime for his actions and the actions that necessitated his decision, I will unabashedly and  I would do the exact same thing given his circumstances. Well let's amend that to "kill a child to save my non-incestual family". 

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I don't know. Bran seems firmly entrenched(or should I have said rooted?) in the North and Jaime in the south. I just can't see their paths crossing again short of Jaime being AAR or something similarly tinfoily. As has already been mentioned he's being hauled before UnMom who he already confessed the crime to, that seems like it's going to be the climax for Jaime's redemption arc or lack thereof, along with any comeuppance for pushing Bran out of the window.

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The whole point is Bran will forgive this.

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23 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The whole point is Bran will forgive this.

Even as he embraces the darkness and learns the taste of blood beneath the earth?

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The only reason I like this is because of the Fenrir/Tyr angle.  Kind of a cool interplay.

 But I agree that Bran has to forgive this and all other transgressions in flesh and focus on spiritual/magical transgressions.  Fucking around with Jaime won't get him anywhere.

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4 minutes ago, Aetta said:

The only reason I like this is because of the Fenrir/Tyr angle.  Kind of a cool interplay.

Same here. I have a crackpot theory that the shadows of a man covered in flames fighting a wolf that Dany sees in Mirri's tent is Jaime vs Bran 2.0.

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6 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Same here. I have a crackpot theory that the shadows of a man covered in flames fighting a wolf that Dany sees in Mirri's tent is Jaime vs Bran 2.0.

I have all sorts of crackpottery about the whole thing ending with Lif and Lifthrasr rebuilding their world from scratch a la The Neverending Story. 

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30 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Even as he embraces the darkness and learns the taste of blood beneath the earth?

30 minutes ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Even as he embraces the darkness and learns the taste of blood beneath the earth?

Embracing the darkness.  That is very much a common theme with the Stark children.  Alarmingly some Stark loyalists want this.  They actually want Arya to pursue the path of vengeance. 

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5 minutes ago, Aetta said:

I have all sorts of crackpottery about the whole thing ending with Lif and Lifthrasr rebuilding their world from scratch a la The Neverending Story. 

"Careful, Atreyu! There's a wide patch of the Nothing ahead of us!"

"Nah, it's okay, Falkor, that's just Dorne."

Seriously though, I like that theory. Could Meera be Lif, since she's hiding under an obvious Yggdrasil and all that? 

13 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Embracing the darkness.  That is very much a common theme with the Stark children.  Alarmingly some Stark loyalists want this.  They actually want Arya to pursue the path of vengeance. 

Eh, it makes for interesting characters. I say bring on the accidental cannibalism and child assassins!

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1 hour ago, Ser Lockjaw of House Bolta said:

Even as he embraces the darkness and learns the taste of blood beneath the earth?

It's all for him to reject. Just as Arya is being bogged in vengeance, and will in the end reject it for justice. Bran need be wronged and have the power for revenge, justice even, so that he may reject it and prove himself benevolent.

It's flagged, all very straight-forward.

Ned says to Bran one day it will be for him to judge, to look a man in his eyes, hear his last words, and if you can not condemn him to death then maybe he does not deserve to die.

Ned says to Catelyn that Bran is the one, through his nature, to overcome the rift between the two houses.

Bran has stuck in his head on repeat what Jaime said as he pushed him out the window, the things I do for love.

Bran is finding out all about love, as of now he is mind thieving Hodor just to be in Meera's presence.

The North are set to bring their condemned before the weirwoods.

What's going to happen is this.

Bran is going to deeper down the path of the things he'd do for love. He's going to learn what his mentor BR did for love, the war that tore the realm apart. He's going to learn what his aunt and the crown prince did for love, the other war that ended a 300 year dynasty. And probably find out some things Dunk also did for love.

The north are going to

Spoiler

drag Theon before the weirwood

and Bran is going to learn he can somehow intervene, and Theon will be spared because of Bran, the old god's judgement in the eyes of the North. And they'll start doing that for everyone who needs be judged.

Jaime is going to be defeated by the North, and dragged before a weirwood. Bran is going to finally confront what Jaime said and what Jaime did, he's going to understand what the things I do for love meant, that what Bran saw would mean war and/or the death of those Jaime loved. Bran is going to consider what others have done for love, what he himself has done for love, and find himself unable to condemn Jaime to death, proving himself benevolent, better than his mentor BR who still holds a grudge and the peacemaker between the two sides, a peace that is needed to be made so that an alliance can be formed against the Others.

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Daenerys isn't objective and rational when it comes to the "usurpers dog" the Starks. She believes they murderer her family just to steal the Throne. Not sure you can say she is better suited to rule then Jon or anyone else or that she is more objective and rational when it comes to the Houses she believed wronged her family.

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Don't forget that Bran's story arc contains a guilt component too. It can be argued that warging a human being is a worse crime than attempted murder

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The current arcs of daenerys and Tyrion are not exactly leading towards peace, love, understanding, and foregiveness.    Tyrion is feeling a bit vengeful, and Daenerys is talking about going all "blood and fire" on her enemies.    The only peace Daenerys is going to bring in the near future is the peace of the grave, hopefully to those who deserve it.  Conquering, not peace, is on her agenda.

I don't see Jaime lasting long enough to have a confrontation with Bran.  I expect his story may be near its end

17 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:
  • Will the north forgive the Freys?  Until the RW instigators are removed, why should they?
  • Can the Starks forgive Theon?  Maybe, if he lasts that long?
  • Can Dany forgive the families who rebelled against her father?  I hope so.  Otherwise, she is going to have a rough time once she reaches Westeros.
  • Can Jon forgive Bowen?  The guy tried to kill him (and maybe succeeded).  I doubt it.
  • Can Jaime forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin?    Maybe. Jaime seems to be in a pretty forgiving mood lately.  The more interesting question is whether Tyrion can forgive Jaime for Tysha.
  • Can Bran forgive Jaime?  If he finds out, and Jaime is still around, maybe.
  • Will Arya choose to continue to work on her hit list?  Arya is definitely a major part of the problem.   The only work Arya does on her list is when someone crosses her path.  Otherwise, it is essentially a prayer list.  She hasn't really done anything, so is not part of the problem.  I still hold out hope that her story is about her abandonment of vengeance and the reclaiming of her Stark identity.
  • Stoneheart makes the situation worse and she is an impediment to future unification.   I'm with you on that one.

 

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3 hours ago, Nevets said:
  • Will the north forgive the Freys?  Until the RW instigators are removed, why should they? This is why it won't be easy.  It's easy to forgive someone who cheated you at cards.  It ain't so easy when they killed your family during wartime.  There's no conflict in the heart if it's only about a card game.  The Freys are important players.  They hold the crossings and they have family in every part of Westeros.  Many Freys are married into other families.  Freys wear the grey cloak of the maesters and serve other houses.  Their cooperation would help unite the kingdom.
  • Can the Starks forgive Theon?  Maybe, if he lasts that long? 
  • Can Dany forgive the families who rebelled against her father?  I hope so.  Otherwise, she is going to have a rough time once she reaches Westeros.
  • Can Jon forgive Bowen?  The guy tried to kill him (and maybe succeeded).  I doubt itJon should realize that he gave Bowen no other choice.  Jon was the one in the wrong in that situation for fucking with the Boltons.  Jon needed to mind his own business.
  • Can Jaime forgive Tyrion for killing Tywin?    Maybe. Jaime seems to be in a pretty forgiving mood lately.  The more interesting question is whether Tyrion can forgive Jaime for Tysha.
  • Can Bran forgive Jaime?  If he finds out, and Jaime is still around, maybe.  Most likely not.  The fall took away Bran's dream of knighthood and manhood.  If he acts like what you would expect a boy to do after they've been crippled, Bran will be on a path to revenge.
  • Will Arya choose to continue to work on her hit list?  Arya is definitely a major part of the problem.   The only work Arya does on her list is when someone crosses her path.  Otherwise, it is essentially a prayer list.  She hasn't really done anything, so is not part of the problem.  I still hold out hope that her story is about her abandonment of vengeance and the reclaiming of her Stark identity.  So the life of the insurance man at the inn is of no consequence?  Arya has already gone deep in the path of murder.   She has youth going for her but the way her arc reads, she's very disturbed.  Maybe she'll grow up and feel remorseful.
  • Stoneheart makes the situation worse and she is an impediment to future unification.   I'm with you on that one.  Me three.  I would add Manderley to this list. 
3 hours ago, Nevets said:

The current arcs of daenerys and Tyrion are not exactly leading towards peace, love, understanding, and foregiveness.    She tried forgiveness and reconciliation.  How did the slavers repay her?  By carrying out terroristic attacks on her Unsullied and the free people of Meereen.  Tyrion is feeling a bit vengeful, He is for now.  I hope that will change.   and Daenerys is talking about going all "blood and fire" on her enemies.   She needed to use more force against the slavers and the harpy.  How far she carries it out, we will have to see.  I just don't see how you can go too far against the slavers and the harpy (think Ku Klux Klan).  The only peace Daenerys is going to bring in the near future is the peace of the grave, hopefully to those who deserve it.  You can't end the slave trade without sending many people to the grave.  The Civil War killed more Americans than any other war.  That's what it took to end slavery over there.  Conquering, not peace, is on her agenda.  Do you begrudge the Starks for wanting Winterfell back?  Many people will die to retake that old castle.  I can't begrudge Dany for wanting and willing to take back what belonged to her and her family.  I don't begrudge the Starks for wanting to send men into battle to help them take back their castle.  They have a claim to the north.  Dany has as much claim to Westeros as the Starks have to the north..

I don't see Jaime lasting long enough to have a confrontation with Bran.  I expect his story may be near its end

I won't mind the Lannister plot line ending soon but if Jaime lives long enough and Bran learns what happened, look out.  More fan to fuel the bitterness between the wolf and the lion. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

"Careful, Atreyu! There's a wide patch of the Nothing ahead of us!"

"Nah, it's okay, Falkor, that's just Dorne."

Seriously though, I like that theory. Could Meera be Lif, since she's hiding under an obvious Yggdrasil and all that? 

Eh, it makes for interesting characters. I say bring on the accidental cannibalism and child assassins!

I kind of thought of Meera, and also of Leaf herself, but I think the Children might be the antagonists when all is said and done.  It may be that baby Monster/Aemon Steelsong or the other babes that the Others have been "preserving" are the survivors.

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3 hours ago, The Transporter said:

So the life of the insurance man at the inn is of no consequence?  Arya has already gone deep in the path of murder.   She has youth going for her but the way her arc reads, she's very disturbed.  Maybe she'll grow up and feel remorseful

The FM had to use a lot of pressure and manipulation to get her to do it.  She would make a lousy assassin and I think the FM know it, which is why they aren't really giving her any real training.  She is young so I have hope she comes out of it and becomes a Stark again.  Her Stark/Tully upbringing has helped keep her moral compass pointed more or less in the right direction, if a little wobbly. 

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