So, metal...

[NorthGirl]

This is not a thesis, just really more of a feeling, though I'm sure some of you could write an essay going one way or the other, which I would enjoy reading. 

Anyways, I think that dumb Donal Noyne "Stannis=iron, Renly=copper, Robert=steel" quote needs to be retired. While I think it's an interesting point of view for someone to have from the Baratheon boys' past, how at face value this quote is taken feels disproportionate especially because it is very clearly wrong about Stannis. Also, somehow I'm supposed to believe the winning metal of the three is Robert?

The reason why I bring it up is that the analogy often brought up in discussion about Stannis and I've even seen it used for other unrelated characters. And because I think this comment really was more a snapshot of what servants of  Storm's End saw after the deaths of their parents, I'm really wondering if it's that central of a piece when discussing the Baratheon brothers and their attributes, especially as it relates to potential kingship.

Sorry if I'm incoherent, I'm tired and bored but can't fall asleep.

[KingMance]

Not a Bobby B defender in any way, but he was the king of all of Westeros, unlike his bros. Plus he won said throne with steel, so I don't think the analogy is too terrible.

As for Stannis, he's pretty unrelenting about what is "his by rights", although the means to his end change quite a bit.

Renly is pretty spot on though. Wasn't really a character long enough to get much info other than his taste for fancy things, dudes, and being a novice leader.

[Renly's Banana]

On one end is Stannis, who's a competent battle commander, but is unyielding to a fault and inspires no loyalty in anyone outside of Davos because they see him as cold and unfriendly -- which he is. On the other extreme is Renly, who is very charismatic and can make friendships and alliances easily, but is not very experienced or wise. Robert is the bridge between these two worlds. He was a man that knew how to make friendships and pacts while also leading armies and being an excellent warrior. He was the best of both worlds, so yes, he can be seen as the superior Baratheon brother in many ways.

[rotting sea cow]

Donal Noyne met the Baratheon brothers before the timeline of the books, so that assessment applies for former times.

And indeed, Robert was the steel hard but flexible, but years of kingship rusted him away, losing his edge.

Stannis was the iron, hard but brittle and shattered at the Blackwater, but iron is the main material of steel and Stannis changed and was templed, and we see him at the Wall.

And Renly? Well, we know what happened to Renly

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I always thought the analogy was a bit unfair on Renly (declaration of interest - I am a little bit of a Renly fan, though I don’t think I’m irrational about it). He was certainly ruthless enough to win, and politically savvy enough that, up until Stannis produced a shadow baby (which was just cheating), he was in the strongest position of all the major players in the Wo5K.

That being said, he was a bit of a flighty popinjay type, and you could see why an uber-macho character like Noye wouldn’t be that impressed by him. Renly was egotistical, materialistic, shallow, and more style than substance. But then, I'm of the view that that doesn't necessarily mean you're not King-material. I'm sure Noye would disagree with that though. 

[chrisdaw]

The point of the line is that Stannis is going to break and should be used as a starting point to speculate in what manner Stannis is going to break.

[The hairy bear]

I agree that if the comparison is unfair to anyone, it's Renly.

In defence of Donal Noye, though, when he was sent to the Wall Renly was only six years old. Probably his thoughts about him come from [prejudiced] second-hand opinions.

13 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Renly, who is very charismatic and can make friendships and alliances easily, but is not very experienced or wise.

Renly died very early in the books, but with the little that we saw of him I don't know why we should say that he is not wise. Specially when compared to his brothers.

All the decisions that he took from the beginning of the books seem wise enough to me. He sided with Eddard, but not to the point of risking his own life. He gave Ned the best advice by far. His plot to set Cersei aside and substitute her with Margaery had some merit. And when Robert died, he reacted amazingly fast orchestrating an alliance that rebelled against the crown and proclaimed him king. His actual military strategy was a good one, waiting while the other kings fought among them while he feasted and strengthened his alliances while slowly advancing to King's Landing. The way he treated Cat's embassy also proves he's a good diplomat.

He was only the first king to fall because of dark magic that he could have never anticipated. But before that, he was the king with more possibilities to prevail, while technically he was probably the one with the worse claim of the five. I'd call him wise.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I always took the bit about Renly to characterize his lack of decisiveness. A more decisive man would've taken Kings Landing, would've attacked Stannis straight away( a more intelligent man would've sent Randyl Tarly to avoid the kinslayer label) and thus would not have been shadow babied.

 

29 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The point of the line is that Stannis is going to break and should be used as a starting point to speculate in what manner Stannis is going to break.

Ya I think that's a good point.  I have always been partial to Stannis as the next Night King.

[a_motherf'ndragon]

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Donal Noyne met the Baratheon brothers before the timeline of the books, so that assessment applies for former times.

And indeed, Robert was the steel hard but flexible, but years of kingship rusted him away, losing his edge.

Stannis was the iron, hard but brittle and shattered at the Blackwater, but iron is the main material of steel and Stannis changed and was templed, and we see him at the Wall.

And Renly? Well, we know what happened to Renly

I feel that I need to step in and correct you as your characterization of stannis does not fit with your description of iron as iron pure and un-alloyed is actually the opposite of brittle and hard, it is ductile and soft, instead it corrodes very easily, steel is actually stronger and more brittle, so that would technically make Robert the less flexible one.  So either Noye doesn't know what he's talking about, or he is referring to the relative strength of each material when making this analogy.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

59 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I always took the bit about Renly to characterize his lack of decisiveness. A more decisive man would've taken Kings Landing, would've attacked Stannis straight away( a more intelligent man would've sent Randyl Tarly to avoid the kinslayer label) and thus would not have been shadow babied.

Be fair, even the most comprehensive of contingency planners can’t be expected to take into account shadow babies.

I think that Renly’s strategy was actually quite sound. He had the largest army and the Lannisters and the North were fighting each other. Letting them swing each other out, hoping the North would come out on top, was pretty sensible. A bold move on Kings Landing might have worked, at the same time, Tywin was still well-placed to march on him while Tyrion kept him busy, similar to what happened to Stannis. He was stronger than Stannis ended up being, and obviously Tywin would have been much weaker, as the Tyrells would have been with Renly rather than Tywin; but it was far from a sure thing.

His main mistake was discounting the possibility of Stannis coming after him, and winning. The former he should have suspected, the latter no-one could have seen coming.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, a_motherf'ndragon said:

<snip>  So either Noye doesn't know what he's talking about, or he is referring to the relative strength of each material when making this analogy.

Cast iron can be brittle. Though I couldn't tell you what would be realistic for metalworking in this sort of period.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

10 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

On one end is Stannis, who's a competent battle commander, but is unyielding to a fault and inspires no loyalty in anyone outside of Davos because they see him as cold and unfriendly -- which he is. On the other extreme is Renly, who is very charismatic and can make friendships and alliances easily, but is not very experienced or wise. Robert is the bridge between these two worlds. He was a man that knew how to make friendships and pacts while also leading armies and being an excellent warrior. He was the best of both worlds, so yes, he can be seen as the superior Baratheon brother in many ways.

I think if you were given the mission of writting an analogy using the least amount of words to explain the brothers than it is a pretty good try i would say.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I think the main purpose of that line is to help set up the Jon-Stannis dynamic. Since Jon has never met Stannis, this description of the man being like "iron" is Jon's first impression of him. And here's the quote from their first meeting:

Stannis turned to study him. Beneath his heavy brow were eyes like bottomless blue pools. His hollow cheeks and strong jaw were covered with a short-cropped blue-black beard that did little to conceal the gauntness of his face, and his teeth were clenched. His neck and shoulders were clenched as well, and his right hand. Jon found himself remembering something Donal Noye once said about the Baratheon brothers. Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. Uneasily, he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.

Of course, we know this isn't totally accurate, since Stannis actually does bend rules to get what he wants. He was being a bit disingenuous when he said (with regard to executing Mance), "Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding." Jon was trying to convince Stannis not to execute Mance, and Stannis actually ended up listening. And here is another perfect example of Stannis bending the law:

Three of her guard were geldings that Stannis had castrated for raping wildling women. She had two drunkards and a craven too. The last should have been hanged, as the king himself admitted, but he came from a noble family, and his father and brothers had been stalwart from the first.

So Stannis clearly recognizes the need for nuance in applying the law, at least to achieve what he wants, but Jon's impression of Stannis is of a man who rigidly adheres to the law. And that's how Stannis has been kicking ass at the game of thrones in the north and taking advantage of our naive pov character Jon. So I think you are totally correct, OP, that too many people on the forum sort of take that short description as gospel and make too much of it.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

12 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So Stannis clearly recognizes the need for nuance in applying the law, at least to achieve what he wants, but Jon's impression of Stannis is of a man who rigidly adheres to the law. And that's how Stannis has been kicking ass at the game of thrones in the north and taking advantage of our naive pov character Jon. So I think you are totally correct, OP, that too many people on the forum sort of take that short description as gospel and make too much of it.

I think the best example is killing his brother using black magic. 3 crimes in one.

[velo-knight]

Well, the quote is right, but the brothers are wrong. Robert was (cast) iron, hard and strong and that won him the throne, but he basically refused to change a thing about himself and took no interest in governing. He might have seemed "true steel", but that was only as a military commander. In reality, Stannis is more resolute - I guess that's why he seems brittle - but he's shown a truly remarkable degree of adaptability and open-mindedness for someone constantly belittled as an inflexible extremist.

[Renly's Banana]

@The hairy bear 
Is it too late to get Thoros to bring Renly back? I think he'd still be the best king, even as a shuffling, rotting zombie. I bend the knee before my undead liege!

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The point of the line is that Stannis is going to break and should be used as a starting point to speculate in what manner Stannis is going to break.

I've always seen him dying because he refuses to back away or retreat. It'll be seen as a foolish thing to do by everyone, but of course honorable and implacable Stannis sees it a different way.. so he's gonna break. 

[Orphalesion]

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I always thought the analogy was a bit unfair on Renly (declaration of interest - I am a little bit of a Renly fan, though I don’t think I’m irrational about it). He was certainly ruthless enough to win, and politically savvy enough that, up until Stannis produced a shadow baby (which was just cheating), he was in the strongest position of all the major players in the Wo5K.

 

That being said, he was a bit of a flighty popinjay type, and you could see why an uber-macho character like Noye wouldn’t be that impressed by him. Renly was egotistical, materialistic, shallow, and more style than substance. But then, I'm of the view that that doesn't necessarily mean you're not King-material. I'm sure Noye would disagree with that though. 

 

Exactly quotes like that always tell us as much or more about the character who says them than about the characters that are described.

I don't think Robert ever was steel, true steel I mean. He was inspiring and handsome and appeared to be bright steel, but looking at how he was portrayed in Book 1 I'd wager to say he had always struggled with melancholy/depression and self-destructive behavior (probably since his parents died) and Lyanna and kingship were just what finally broke him. He wasn't steel, he was something much softer and brittler coated by a tin layer of shiny steel.  And that thin coating was enough to fool people, they saw a tall, dashing warrior and extrapolated on that image. Remember that "beauty = goodness" was even more pronounced in the Middle Ages than it is today MUCH more (that's part of why Cersei gets away with the stuff she does, people in a primitive society have difficulty comprehending that this golden, beautiful woman would be rotten to the core)

And nowhere is Robert "the best of both worlds" when it comes to the Baratheon Brothers, he's a self-pitying, passive mess whenever he isn't on the battlefield or among his comrades in arms.

Likewise I agree that Renly was stronger than copper. We never see enough of him, but what we see does make him see beautiful and gallant, yes, but I'd wager that his "copper" is just as much a thin coating as Robert's steel. Like the Tyrells he is not as good and gallant and caring as he seems. He was ready to bring war, kill his brother and was starving innocent people in King's Landing. Renly is probably very close to what young Robert was like, just more politically minded. But he is "too pretty" for the Medieval Mind and enjoys unmanly things like bright fabrics and peaches etc. So many people would dismiss him as effeminate and weak. Copper that's only pretty but easy to bend. 

As you correctly write he lost because his brother assassinated him using

I actually have the impression that the Baratheon Brothers are more alike than they'd admit. I think they were all messed up by their upbringings and are all brittle iron that appears strong and is very unyielding at first, but breaks under too much pressure (King Renly and the Tyrells would just have been King Robert and the Lannisters in green and yellow)

It's just that Robert and Renly have their brittle iron core hidden under nice, shiny surfaces while Stannis, for all his many, many, many, many MANY faults was the only one who didn't bother to hide his flawed core, either out of honesty or because he simply didn't know how to do that.

[The Hoare]

I think it's well applied if you think in Westeros as martial continent.

Robert was strong in battle, but flexible enough to accept "traitors" among his allies. Steel is a good word to describe him, even though he was weak as a king.

Renly is indeed copper. No battle experience, and for all we know no honour either.

Stannis was battle hardened, but much harsher than Robert with his enemies. Throughout the books he seems to get more flexible, probably due to Davos advices.

[Orphalesion]

2 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

I think it's well applied if you think in Westeros as martial continent.

Robert was strong in battle, but flexible enough to accept "traitors" among his allies. Steel is a good word to describe him, even though he was weak as a king.

Renly is indeed copper. No battle experience, and for all we know no honour either.

Stannis was battle hardened, but much harsher than Robert with his enemies. Throughout the books he seems to get more flexible, probably due to Davos advices.

I agree that putting it into the context of battle or leadership in battle and warfare is a good way to interpret this quote, especially considering who says it. 

Though that makes the copper a difficult to contextualize. Iron can become steel through refinement (experience), but copper is just that, copper. Even if you combine it with tin you only get bronze, which isn't that strong of a metal either.

So it would still point towards Renly being deeply flawed and incapable, much more so than his brothers, there is not enough experience in the world to ever turn copper into steel.

Which again makes Noye seem prejudiced and dismissive if the quote was about their qualities in battle or warfare, since I don't think Renly ever was in a battle as a participant or leader. When would Noye have been able to assess Renly in such a context. During the siege of Storm's End when Renly was a little boy?

[The Hoare]

17 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

 When would Noye have been able to assess Renly in such a context. During the siege of Storm's End when Renly was a little boy?

Noye probably thought that he would never be able to become "steel".