purple-eyes

Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

258 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

Yes. Abandonment of Elia and their children was bad enough, but making it official with an annulment was just cruel.

On his part as much as Lyanna's. That doesn't seem her style, either. 

D&D are dumb. They could have easily made this polygamous. 

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He was a jerk yes. Divorcing your wife who gave you 2 kids because you fell in love with another woman is effed up. However........ I'm inclined to think he actually had the annulment done because of his 'obsession', for lack of a better word, with the prince that was promised prophecy. 

 

He truly believed his kid with Lyanna was tptwp and wanted him/her to be a legitimate Targaryen. Doesn't change the fact that he ran out on his wife and kids, but at least there was a bigger picture reasoning for it. 

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2 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

On his part as much as Lyanna's. That doesn't seem her style, either. 

D&D are dumb. They could have easily made this polygamous. 

How do we know the books won't go the same route? Let's hold off on calling the writers dumb for now. It's very possible it happens the same way in the books. 

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Yeah, Rhaegar definitely went full Targtard in believing his own shit doesn't smell it seems. Can't believe everyone, but Robert seem to worship him for some bloody reason...

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1 hour ago, Styl7 said:

Well if Jon had to be legit, polygamy would be a better way... But they never introduced it in the show so I don't know..

The annulment is definitely only the show stuff. With the whole polygamy background missing, it would be deus ex machina, not to mention all the sensitivities which don't mind boobs and cocks and guts and gore but would freak out because of an unusual marriage arrangement.

1 hour ago, VenezuelanLord said:

To be fair i dont think the annulment affected Aegon and Rhaenys status as heirs, they were conceived and birthed inside the marriage, he was obsessed with the prophecy of the ptwp and the dragon has three heads, he just wanted his third legitimate son i guess

That would really depend on what ground the annulment was issued. For instance, there was a RL example in the Middle Ages when the king asked for an annulment on the grounds of consanguinity (which apparently was not an issue for him while he was an exile and his wife married him against the wishes of her family and stood by him in bad and worse), so that he could marry a young princess of nobler blood and start a grand dynasty, and all his children from his first marriage were delegitimized by the annulment, including an adult heir. - Now that's what I call a jerk move.

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Posted (edited)

delete

Edited by Iron Mother

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Posted (edited)

That is a pretty grim account.  I think some context will be revealed to change this up a little bit.  Strange, every single person everywhere spoke very highly of Rhaegar always.  Except for one person: Oberyn Martell.  Understandably, because what you described is the story he knows.  But there is no doubt more to the story.  They need to get on with this already!

Edited by Iron Mother

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Annulment doesn't mean a break of marriage but totally declaring the marriage as null and void, as if it has never happened. If it's an annulment (not divorce) than it means that he purposedly making his first 2 children, the daughter who loved him so much she hid under his bed thinking he would protect her and a newborn son he so hastily left after his birth as bastards. It doesn't matter whether they were born during marriage because annulment will cancel the whole thing. Think of Mary and Elizabeth, they were both declared illegitimate/bastard

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I get that Rhaegar is a complex character made even more complex by the fact that everything we know about him is coming from someone's thoughts on him and those are varied. But looking at the facts alone, his treatment of Elia is terrible. I would definitely like to see some better explanation for it than his obsession with a prophecy.

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3 minutes ago, redtree said:

Annulment doesn't mean a break of marriage but totally declaring the marriage as null and void, as if it has never happened. If it's an annulment (not divorce) than it means that he purposedly making his first 2 children, the daughter who loved him so much she hid under his bed thinking he would protect her and a newborn son he so hastily left after his birth as bastards. It doesn't matter whether they were born during marriage because annulment will cancel the whole thing. Think of Mary and Elizabeth, they were both declared illegitimate/bastard

Also, Rhaegar used to believe Aegon was the Prince that was promised.. With a changed his mind? What made him believe that it was Jon the prince that was promised? Ofc this happened in the show..

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Posted (edited)

I happen to like the Rhaegar, I don't have a problem with him having his first marriage annulled, the marriage was just a political one and he felt obligated to be in it, once baby Aegon 1 came along I just think he felt that he had fulfilled the purpose of the marriage which was to produce a male heir, add to that the he knew that it was his last child with Elia, he might not have loved her but Ser Barristan said he was fond of her and I am sure he did not want to cause her anymore undue physical harm.  

That being said well for as much as I like him yeah he is a jackass of the highest order.  Lyanna does not skate free in this either as far as I am concerned though.  The part that makes them both jerks is that this was all done in secret. Rheagar not being man enough to say to Elia that we know this is not a real thing we have done our duty and given the kingdom an heir, I have found real love and happiness and I want to pursue that, I want you to to have the chance to go out and do the same thing.  

Yeah there would have been consequences if this had been done in the open but would war have been one of them.  Yeah Robert would have been pissed, I am sure the Martells would have been pissed but if Aegon were given priority in the line of succession that might have placated them, I am not sure how Rickard would have felt he went from being linked to a Great Lord to the Crown but Lyanna disobeyed him so who knows.  The chain of events would have been different.

This does raise a whole lot of new questions though like whose idea was it to keep it all secret? Did Lyanna tell Ned that she and Rhaegar were married? How long after they disappeared did the annulment and marriage take place?  

As for ground for the annulment, well the annulment and marriage was performed by the High Septon himself so any doubt that it was accepted by the faith could also be layed to rest so that would make it 100% legal.

Edited by xander_blackfyre

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

His wife was loyal and dutiful to him. She gave him two children although she is always sickly and fragile. But Rhaegar humiliated her for Lyanna in front of the realm. 

And to make it more cruel, shortly after she almost died giving birth to his son, Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, annuled his marriage with her secretly (turned their two children into bastards) and disappeared for almost one year. He also took his first son's name Aegon and gave it to his new child with Lyanna since Aegon is a name for future king, not a bastard Waters boy.  As if the first little Aegon has never existed. Baby Aegon, first son of Rhaegar, a one year old boy, will be soon forgotten by everyone, because the only Aegon Targaryen who mattered and beloved is Jon Snow. The first Aegon is just a smashed bloody mess whom nobody cared. 

Did Elia and her brothers know her marriage was annuled before she died? 

We do not know.

But she and her children were abandoned by her ex-husband in DS to the mercy of Mad king, then were kept as hostage before they were brutally murdered. 

10000 Dornish army were sent to help Rhaegar still. Elia's uncle Prince Lewyn died fighting for Rhaegar. At the mean time his niece was already divorced by Rhaegar. 

I understand many people are so overjoyed to see Jon Snow is the rightful heir. They do not care what is the back story, only thing matters is that Jon Snow is legit and has a better claim to throne. Sure, he is Aragorn of Westeros, how come he be a bastard? 

But I wish Rhaegar good luck when he met Elia, Oberyn, Rhaenys waters and his nameless bastard baby son in wherever they go after death. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a great shinning love, yet somebody else paid for it with their lives. 

 

 

You don't know what was going on in that household.  Maybe Elia was a real bitch and wouldn't shut her mouth and just nagged the shit out of Rhaegar.  Maybe she was fucking someone behind his back.  Maybe she was a milk of the poppy junkie.  We don't know the whole story.  

Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark

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2 minutes ago, redtree said:

Annulment doesn't mean a break of marriage but totally declaring the marriage as null and void, as if it has never happened. If it's an annulment (not divorce) than it means that he purposedly making his first 2 children, the daughter who loved him so much she hid under his bed thinking he would protect her and a newborn son he so hastily left after his birth as bastards. It doesn't matter whether they were born during marriage because annulment will cancel the whole thing. Think of Mary and Elizabeth, they were both declared illegitimate/bastard

Yea, so Rhaegar was a total mega jerk - not only did he dump his frail wife for a young hot piece of smoo, he deliberately negated his parental responsibility to his first 2 children.

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6 minutes ago, redtree said:

Annulment doesn't mean a break of marriage but totally declaring the marriage as null and void, as if it has never happened. If it's an annulment (not divorce) than it means that he purposedly making his first 2 children, the daughter who loved him so much she hid under his bed thinking he would protect her and a newborn son he so hastily left after his birth as bastards. It doesn't matter whether they were born during marriage because annulment will cancel the whole thing. Think of Mary and Elizabeth, they were both declared illegitimate/bastard

Thank you! That's the problem I have with this annulment; leaving your wife for another woman because of true love or prophecy; you know what, shit happens and sorry, Elia no justice for you. But damn, bastardizing your kids? C'mon man. 

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2 hours ago, anjulibai said:

Yeah, this seems really shitty for Rhaegar and not something he'd do. Polygamous marriage, yes, but not annul one marriage and make his elder children bastards. What would the grounds be? 

And yeah, giving Jon the name Aegon is shitty. Really shitty. I'm still hoping for Aemon. 

I absolutely HATE that showJon's name might Aegon: makes absolutely no sense since Rhaegar's first son is named Aegon, regardless of whether he was secretly made a bastard by this act, so it is incredibly shitty.  I can only hope this is a show only invention - that George confirmed in broad strokes that R+L=J but didn't give a name for Jon or say annulment over polyamory.  (And I would have thought Rhaegar would emulate Aegon the Conqueror and marry both Elia and Lyanna, not set aside the former for the latter). 

And Aemon would have been a great nod to the relationship between Jon and Maester Aemon, while still being very Targ.  I suppose on a rational level, AEGON - GON - JON makes sense as a way of hiding the baby's identity but giving him a name similar to his true name, but that doesn't mean it's not shitty, repetitive, and irritating.  

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Hey @Iron Mother, have you considered using the Edit function to avoid multiposting? :P

 

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Annulment means Elia's children could not claim the throne vs. Lyanna and Rhaegars children.

He was being a jerk for falling in love with Lyanna, but he could have thought he saved the realm from a war of pretenders to the throne years to come, which polygami would have ensured.

AND he was obsessed with the prophecy...

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I have so many questions...

Do we know for definite that 

Spoiler

Jon was named Aegon? By Rhaegar? I suppose he left instruction with Lyanna that after being abandoned for war, if she had the baby whilst he was away, and if it was a boy he was to be called that... 

Did Lyanna have no problems with that? Naming her little boy the same name as her husband's first son? Did she subscribe to the PtwP theory?

Did Ned name him Jon, or did Lyanna? It's been a long time since I read the books :P did she have enough time to explain everything before she snuffed it? Did she know Rhaegar was dead?

How 'simple' are D&D going to have to make it considering they have removed 99.8% of the story surrounding everyone in this set up...

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7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

His wife was loyal and dutiful to him. She gave him two children although she is always sickly and fragile. But Rhaegar humiliated her for Lyanna in front of the realm. 

And to make it more cruel, shortly after she almost died giving birth to his son, Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, annuled his marriage with her secretly (turned their two children into bastards) and disappeared for almost one year. He also took his first son's name Aegon and gave it to his new child with Lyanna since Aegon is a name for future king, not a bastard Waters boy.  As if the first little Aegon has never existed. Baby Aegon, first son of Rhaegar, a one year old boy, will be soon forgotten by everyone, because the only Aegon Targaryen who mattered and beloved is Jon Snow. The first Aegon is just a smashed bloody mess whom nobody cared. 

Did Elia and her brothers know her marriage was annuled before she died? 

We do not know.

But she and her children were abandoned by her ex-husband in DS to the mercy of Mad king, then were kept as hostage before they were brutally murdered. 

10000 Dornish army were sent to help Rhaegar still. Elia's uncle Prince Lewyn died fighting for Rhaegar. At the mean time his niece was already divorced by Rhaegar. 

I understand many people are so overjoyed to see Jon Snow is the rightful heir. They do not care what is the back story, only thing matters is that Jon Snow is legit and has a better claim to throne. Sure, he is Aragorn of Westeros, how come he be a bastard? 

But I wish Rhaegar good luck when he met Elia, Oberyn, Rhaenys waters and his nameless bastard baby son in wherever they go after death. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a great shinning love, yet somebody else paid for it with their lives. 

 

 

Woah that's a lot of assumptions you have made there.

Firstly, the marriage in the books is very likely going to be different than the show. The books have the easier option of Polygamy, but the show are only going to take the easier option of annulment. So in the books, if Rhaegar takes the polygamy route, he would technically not be abandoning Elia or his other two kids.

and even if he had an annulment - how can you assume the kids would become bastards? In real life history, an annulment means that the kids become bastards if you annul a marriage with your spouse. But GRRM doesn't seem to follow this - the only mention he makes of annulment is Robert and Cersei's marriage. And that would only have meant Cersei wouldn't have been Robert's legal wife anymore, not that their kids would become bastards. Same with Rhaegar and Elia - if he annuls their marriage, it would only mean they aren't legally married anymore...but their kids would still be in line for the throne. They would just be joined with any other kids Lyanna gives Rhaegar.

you have also assumed that Elia wanted to stay married to Rhaegar, when evidence says she probably wouldn't have wanted to. She wasn't even in love with him, and she became barren after giving birth to Aegon. A huge negative because Rhaegar needed another son. So what's wrong if she decides to have the marriage annulled? It's good for her as she now doesn't have to die to give birth to another kid, and she can also go back to Dorne. 

I also don't know how you seem to have gotten that idea of Rhaegar taking his first sons name and giving it to Jon. It's a lot more likely that Jon's real name is Aemon or Jaehearys. 

I'm not one of those 'who don't care' about Elia and her kids, but you just seem to have taken a huge leap and 'confirmed' Rhaegar as some sort of douche just because he had his marriage annulled. In reality, it's a lot more likely that it was the wish of all three involved. 

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8 minutes ago, spivo said:

Annulment means Elia's children could not claim the throne vs. Lyanna and Rhaegars children.

He was being a jerk for falling in love with Lyanna, but he could have thought he saved the realm from a war of pretenders to the throne years to come, which polygami would have ensured.

AND he was obsessed with the prophecy...

If he was obsessed with the prophecy, then he felt obligated to do so. I, and the rest of us, knew that Rhaegar knew this act with Lyanna would start a shitstorm of a war, but this had to be done for the sake of the world. Heads will chopped, thousands will be dead, but this child had to be born.

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