Targaryen Restoration

The younger, more beautiful queen . . .

100 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Johnimus said:

If there is to be peace in Westeros when this is all said and done, the only guarantor of that peace will be Drogon's fire, ready to rain down on those who would threaten the people. So I hope they'll survive the story. And I think they will.

Except they didn't guarantee peace during the first Targ dynasty... why should they now? Well, I guess we'll find out what happens.

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7 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Daenerys is the only other queen.  No other woman is more beautiful than Cersei.  Certainly not Arya.  Daenerys is the most beautiful woman in the world.  And she is destined to sit on the iron throne and rule Westeros.  Cersei's purpose is to pave the way for a queen to rule Westeros instead of a king.  That role may fall to Arrianne in the books but on the show that role belongs to Cersei.  The child baking in Cersei's belly and her public admission that it is Jaime's will also pave the way for the acceptance of Dany's relationship with Jon.  The meaning of "take everything that is yours" really hits home when you consider that Cersei paved the road that will bring the iron throne to Daenerys Targaryen.  Cersei has always been the primary human villain from the start and Daeneys the primary protagonists, so it is fitting that they have the roles that they do.  Sansa, Arya, and Yara are only secondary characters. 

Book Jon is a wight.  I don't think he will ever sit on the iron throne and rule.  He's just not good at it.  He will probably fight the NK one on one on the show and somehow pull out a victory but die in the end.  He has no other purpose.  His life was always destined for this one purpose.  That is why he ended up at the wall.  He said his oaths and took those vows.  His one and only job in this world is to fight the Others. 

In the books it is not all about jon and Daenerys, the main characters are five, bran, arya, jon, daenerys and tyrion, I do not agree at all with that Arya is a "secondary" character.

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Does the "younger and more beautiful queen" even exist in the show 'verse? I know that the valonqar doesn't, I think the YAMBQ does not, either.

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2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Does the "younger and more beautiful queen" even exist in the show 'verse? I know that the valonqar doesn't, I think the YAMBQ does not, either.

Yes it does.
"[...]You'll be Queen, for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all your hold dear."

/Maggy The Frog, Season 5 Episode 1.

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3 hours ago, Johnimus said:

Plus, *if* the plan for the ending is someone from Team Targaryen on the throne, they'll be pretty toothless without the Dragons. 

Well, except for having 8000 devotedly loyal Unsullied.* That's a hell of a lot more powerful than the royal army controlled by any feudal monarch in history. If she can't do a better job than Aegon V maintaining order even with those Unsullied, there's not much hope for her to accomplish anything. (Of course that puts a time limit on Dany to "break the wheel" sufficiently before the Unsullied start retiring and dying.)

---

* And possibly ten times as many Dothraki, although they may be more trouble than they're worth…

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1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

Except they didn't guarantee peace during the first Targ dynasty... why should they now? Well, I guess we'll find out what happens.

It's the distinction between necessary and sufficient.

There's no obvious way for a monarch to reduce the power of the lords without having a strong royal army.

But that doesn't mean a strong royal army automatically reduces the power of the lords. It could be used to oppress the people instead of to defend them, or it could be used capriciously instead of judiciously and just cause chaos, or it could be wasted on overseas ventures, or it could be left unused for no good reason by a weak king, etc.

And the exact same is true for dragons. They could have used dragons to maintain peace, but few of them did, and some even used them to make the war and chaos worse. Dany obviously intends to be one of the good ones; we'll see (assuming she even survives to sit the throne) if she can pull that off.

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What if Jamie arrives at Winterfell and informs everyone that Cersei has reneged on her deal.  He also informs them the Golden Company is on the way from Essos.  That might influence the Northern / Daenerys armies to attack Kings Landing.  Perhaps Jamie will plead with Cersei one last time to see reason and Cersei will tell Qyburn to "burn them all" which causes Jamie to become the Queenslayer.  Kings Lands is gutted by Wild Fire fulfilling the vision from the House of Undying and the prophesies regarding Cersei come to fruition.

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10 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Daenerys is the only other queen.  No other woman is more beautiful than Cersei.  Certainly not Arya.  Daenerys is the most beautiful woman in the world.  And she is destined to sit on the iron throne and rule Westeros.  Cersei's purpose is to pave the way for a queen to rule Westeros instead of a king.  That role may fall to Arrianne in the books but on the show that role belongs to Cersei.  The child baking in Cersei's belly and her public admission that it is Jaime's will also pave the way for the acceptance of Dany's relationship with Jon.  The meaning of "take everything that is yours" really hits home when you consider that Cersei paved the road that will bring the iron throne to Daenerys Targaryen.  Cersei has always been the primary human villain from the start and Daeneys the primary protagonists, so it is fitting that they have the roles that they do.  Sansa, Arya, and Yara are only secondary characters. 

Book Jon is a wight.  I don't think he will ever sit on the iron throne and rule.  He's just not good at it.  He will probably fight the NK one on one on the show and somehow pull out a victory but die in the end.  He has no other purpose.  His life was always destined for this one purpose.  That is why he ended up at the wall.  He said his oaths and took those vows.  His one and only job in this world is to fight the Others. 

There are female characters more beautiful than Cersei besides Dany. 

Missandei, Melisandre, Maergaery (dead tho), and Sansa to name a few. 

 

FWIW Arya is pretty cute but she still looks 12 so I can't think of her sexually at all. 

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

It's the distinction between necessary and sufficient.

There's no obvious way for a monarch to reduce the power of the lords without having a strong royal army.

But that doesn't mean a strong royal army automatically reduces the power of the lords. It could be used to oppress the people instead of to defend them, or it could be used capriciously instead of judiciously and just cause chaos, or it could be wasted on overseas ventures, or it could be left unused for no good reason by a weak king, etc.

And the exact same is true for dragons. They could have used dragons to maintain peace, but few of them did, and some even used them to make the war and chaos worse. Dany obviously intends to be one of the good ones; we'll see (assuming she even survives to sit the throne) if she can pull that off.

THIS.

It's not unlike the real world. The problem isn't WMDs/Dragons. In the right hands, they can be guarantors of peace (Jaeharys I, The USA/UK/France since 1945, mostly). In the wrong hands, they can be terrifying (Night King, Maegor I, Kim Jong Un). 

The problem isn't that Dragons exist, it's that hereditary Monarchy is a system that is guaranteed to produce, every few centuries at minimum, somebody inherently unfit to rule.

Daenarys, to her credit, seems to recognise this (hence all the "break the wheel" talk this year).

Incidentally, in ASOIAF lore, while the Dragons lived, there was far more peace (the long reigns of Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, together delivering more than a century of peace) than war (the short reigns of Aenys, Maegor, and Aegon II, lasting the grand total of 11 years altogether).

By contrast, after the Dragons died out, there was hardly a peaceful reign for any King. 

Daenarys summed it up nicely in this episode. When the Dragons died, the Targaryens were not extraordinary any more. If she loses Rhaegal and Drogon in the wars to come, any hope of long term peace is gone.

That's why I don't think she will. I doubt that's the ending GRRM wants to write. 

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But wasn't Danaerys always the most obvious? Cersei thought it was Marg but few fans fell for it.

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37 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

But wasn't Danaerys always the most obvious? Cersei thought it was Marg but few fans fell for it.

The books have been dissected to death over the years so much of what is regarded as "obvious" wouldn't be obvious to many book readers had they not had the time to speculate (or read speculation) in between novels.

Many people have been duped into thinking ASOIAF will break tropes and not be obvious etc. when it is obvious that much of it is standard fare.  The whole series (book and TV) is based on this theory no one is safe but in reality that was simply because of Eddard's death.  So far his is the only death of a POV character from the first book (and remember GRRM initially was going to tell the entire story only using those POV's so it's pretty obvious they are the only characters that truly matter).  At present Catelyn is alive but in a bad way but we also know from the show that her arc is clearly unimportant.  So I guess there is a case for two of the characters from AGOT to be dead.  But GRRM also said the story was about the kids and none of the kids with a POV have died.

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The younger and more beautiful queen always referred to Dany.  She is the most beautiful woman in the world and she is already a queen.  Margery and Sansa were just distractions created by Cersei's paranoia.  In the case of Sansa, she was only in the running on the fan forums and only because her fans convinced themselves it was her.  Sansa was not and is not queen material. 

Dany will take everything from Cersei and she will rule the new queendom.  Dany will take everything and everyone, including Cersei's baby. 

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I'm sorry if that has been discussed before and definitively rejected, but isn't there a theory that the "other" doesn't have to be a "queen" at all ? It would be more of a "gender-neutral" reference to a person, "younger and more beautiful to cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear" and that person could be the Valonqar ? I think I read it somewhere in this forum...

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Posted (edited)

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Rhymes with Sneak said:

* Arya could choke out Cersei wearing the face of Jaime or Tyrion to get both parts of the prophecy in one.

I totally wanted Arya to do it while wearing Cersei's face (then "all she holds dear" is basically herself which is being destroyed by ... herself). Alas, unless Arya finds a way to just magic up masks or Cersei has an identical twin I don't think it'll manage to happen.

Do we know anyone that's a dead ringer for a young Cersei?

Edited by Never See it Coming
Edited for clarity

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On 8/28/2017 at 6:29 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The books have been dissected to death over the years so much of what is regarded as "obvious" wouldn't be obvious to many book readers had they not had the time to speculate (or read speculation) in between novels.

Many people have been duped into thinking ASOIAF will break tropes and not be obvious etc. when it is obvious that much of it is standard fare.  The whole series (book and TV) is based on this theory no one is safe but in reality that was simply because of Eddard's death.  So far his is the only death of a POV character from the first book (and remember GRRM initially was going to tell the entire story only using those POV's so it's pretty obvious they are the only characters that truly matter).  At present Catelyn is alive but in a bad way but we also know from the show that her arc is clearly unimportant.  So I guess there is a case for two of the characters from AGOT to be dead.  But GRRM also said the story was about the kids and none of the kids with a POV have died.

Not only that but I remember GRRM saying once that he regretted the geographic split for Feast and Dance because he had to split Cersei and Daenerys' chapters. When you consider that originally, the two were going to be compared in the same books, it makes it even more clear that the younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys. 

It could be Sansa but I really don't see Sansa being Queen in this story. At this point, it's Dany or some very outside the box answer like Cersei's unborn child or Jon and Dany's future daughter lol which I think is a bit of a stretch

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On 8/28/2017 at 1:56 PM, Johnimus said:

The Targaryens have caused no more misery than any other House. Probably less than, for example, the Greyjoys, whose people have reaved and raped and stolen for centuries under Greyjoy lords and Hoare Kings alike. Did Tywin Lannister need a Dragon to drown women and children at Castamere? The Dragons aren't to blame, people are. And in a feudal society, Lords have to be kept in line. So long as there are ambitious and ruthless people with access to arms, only the threat of destruction will keep the peace. And the Targaryen dragons did that, until Viserys I screwed up the succession and set Dragon against Dragon.

If there is to be peace in Westeros when this is all said and done, the only guarantor of that peace will be Drogon's fire, ready to rain down on those who would threaten the people. So I hope they'll survive the story. And I think they will.

The person ruling should also not have any ties to the current great houses.  That is the only way to avoid partiality.  We see in the books how loyalties to houses compromise judgment and duty.  Daenerys has less ties to the great houses and therefore will be the best choice to rule at the end.  With the help of Drogon's fire, of course. 

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On 8/28/2017 at 6:29 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The books have been dissected to death over the years so much of what is regarded as "obvious" wouldn't be obvious to many book readers had they not had the time to speculate (or read speculation) in between novels.

Many people have been duped into thinking ASOIAF will break tropes and not be obvious etc. when it is obvious that much of it is standard fare.  The whole series (book and TV) is based on this theory no one is safe but in reality that was simply because of Eddard's death.  So far his is the only death of a POV character from the first book (and remember GRRM initially was going to tell the entire story only using those POV's so it's pretty obvious they are the only characters that truly matter).  At present Catelyn is alive but in a bad way but we also know from the show that her arc is clearly unimportant.  So I guess there is a case for two of the characters from AGOT to be dead.  But GRRM also said the story was about the kids and none of the kids with a POV have died.

The story is about the struggle within the human heart so you can understand why none of the kids (Daenerys, Jon, Arya, Bran, and Sansa) have died.  They have to reach an age where they can think critically in order to have that struggle.  Jon failed in the books when he chose to rescue Arya even though it meant starting a war with Ramsay.  Something they worked very hard to hide from the fans on the show.  Anyway, there is a difference when you kill off a beloved character like Eddard and one of the kids mentioned above.  We met Eddard as an adult and there is no more room for character growth for him.  I am a Stark hater but even I liked Eddard.  He is admirable.  It doesn't mean he had something to do in the future.  He's lord of Winterfell and won his rebellion, he fathered children. Nothing more for him to do.  It's not as if Eddard had it in mind to bring on change like "break the wheel" or anything so grand like that.  So who will die among the top five characters?  The top five are Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, and Bran.  It is possible to have a bittersweet ending without any of them dying.  They are the future and that is what makes them the five main characters, not the number of pov chapters or anything silly like that.  I would love for Jon and Arya to die soon but it won't happen.  If one of those five dies, my bet would be on Tyrion being most likely.  He killed his father and that is a pretty unforgivable sin in any age, in any place.  Next would be Arya because she's too messed up.  Followed by Jon, because he's dead in the books and you can only come back as a wight.  Then Jon is followed by Dany.  Bran is the one most likely to survive.  I don't like the crippled boy but he is the last greenseer and I just don't think GM will let them die out.  I am talking about the story in the books being written by George.  The show is telling its own story.

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There is only one queen left, and she is younger and more beautiful.

Even so she can only take what she holds dear that has survived, meaning throne, Jamie, and perhaps baby. Not much really. Jamie left her, throne is gonna go, so question is baby.

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On 8/29/2017 at 5:29 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The younger and more beautiful queen always referred to Dany.  She is the most beautiful woman in the world and she is already a queen.  Margery and Sansa were just distractions created by Cersei's paranoia.  In the case of Sansa, she was only in the running on the fan forums and only because her fans convinced themselves it was her.  Sansa was not and is not queen material. 

Dany will take everything from Cersei and she will rule the new queendom.  Dany will take everything and everyone, including Cersei's baby. 

I'll talk about books since in the show it is not even mentioned properly. Book Sansa is more Queen material than Marg is, was or would be in any chapter (in the show they made Marg cunning and liberated, but in the books she wasn't prettier or particularly smarter than Sansa; if Sansa had someone like Lady Olenna helping her, I think she would be even more successful than Marg). In the books Marg is more plain character than in the show (I do not particularly like her neither in the book nor show). In fact, Tyrion described Sansa just as good-looking as Marg and thought that Joffrey was a fool and that Sansa would become a good queen, even better than Marg. Tyrion called Sansa beautiful and she was just a young girl developing then. The thing is - Cersei never saw Sansa as the one, because Sansa was helpless and her prisoner, while (in the books) Marg still has Tyrell power behind her back and that's the reason she thinks it is Marg. 
And yes, Dany is the obvious one and it is about her- she is more beautiful queen, more beautiful than Cersei, that is. She is one of the main characters anyway.
As for Dany being "the most beautiful woman in the world"...most of Lys share the same look, even baseborn slaves... There are few incredibly beautiful Lysene woman in the story that were brought to Westeros as wives and paramours (one of which is Dany's own direct ancestor). In fact, Lys's pleasure houses and whores are famous for that, so "the most beautiful woman" is just an exaggeration... Dany's attractiveness is increased by her personality and dragons, which is unique, no doubt, and she is well publicized - let's not forget about that. Anyway, "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". 

P.S: In the books we also have Arianne Martell, who is a princess and is definitely a beauty. She could easily become a queen in the next book and be the one from Cersei's prophecy, although, I doubt it: in the end it is all about Daenerys.

Edited by Gala

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