A question about the lemon tree

[bemused]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

This isn't a dream.  Dany sees Kingslanding and Dragonstone in her mind's eye. How can she have a memory of a place she is too young to remember or a place where she have never been?  Perhaps these aren't her memories but someone else's memories. Previous to this conversation with Jorah, Dany dreams of the singing dragon:

 

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is Rhaegar the singing dragon, his soul trapped in the black and red dragon's egg? Are the memories of Dragonstone and Kingslanding his memories?  Does Dany recognize that the dragon is her blood just as Ned says that Jon is his blood?

These are both thought provoking.

It occurs to me re: her mind's eye , that Viserys had been telling her tales of Westeros for years, and though he must have heard a lot from Darry, he was old enough to have clearer memories of Westeros than Dany does of living in Braavos.

Random thoughts about her dream - I think the dragon is Drogon. He is wet and slick with what she senses is her blood .. as a baby is at birth (Mother of Dragons).She is responsible  for his birth.

Similarly, when grown, he is responsible for her rebirth when he flies her out of Daznak's pit - precipitating the new fierceness she seems to be embracing in her last chapter in ADWD.

3 hours ago, zionius said:

Another thing worth of note. Syrio had been the first sword for 9 years and came to Westeros in 298 AC. 9 years ago was 289 AC, just the time when Willem Darry got sick and died afterward. So the death of the first sword before Syrio might be related with Willem's death and Dany's driven out of the house with the red door.

Why did GRRM change Dany's infancy from Tyrosh to Braavos? So far as I can guess, maybe Ayra or Syrio will reveal her past in Braavos

Just my own crackpottery (and I don't mean to derail the thread), but I suspect the Sealord of the pact died about the same time as Willem and that Syrio was his first sword, who also died at that time.

Regardless, whatever happened to Syrio, we now know about Phario Forel from the Mercy chapter. I don't know if this is still necessary, but...

Spoiler

Phario seems to write historical/political plays, and I suspect that "the Merchant's Melancholy Daughter" and perhaps even "the Agony of the Archon" hint at political machination around D&V being cast out and the failure of Doran's original plans for Viserys involving the Archon and his daughter.

Phario may also know things about his kinsman Syrio that Arya does not .. I can't believe Arya won't meet him. The set up just seems too ripe.

[zionius]

1 hour ago, bemused said:

Just my own crackpottery (and I don't mean to derail the thread), but I suspect the Sealord of the pact died about the same time as Willem and that Syrio was his first sword, who also died at that time.

Syrio was alive in 298 AC. Willem got sick when Dany was 5, and died not long after that. There are about 9 years gap between their deaths.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, bemused said:

Random thoughts about her dream - I think the dragon is Drogon. He is wet and slick with what she senses is her blood .. as a baby is at birth (Mother of Dragons).She is responsible  for his birth.

Aeron Damphair tells us that 'memories are the bones of the soul'.  We know that objects carry a memory of their owner, something that Melisandre is able to use when she creates a glamor.  The Faceless Men experience the memory of the dead when they wear a new face.

Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day pyromancers attempted to hatch dragon eggs using wildfire or so Aemon tells us.  There must have been an egg for Rhaegar and I think it likely that Dany's black egg belonged to Rhaegar.  I think it's possible that the souls of Targaryens can go into their dragon egg (or their dragon) upon their death; just as Starks and skinchangers can have a second life in their familiars.

Rhaegar wears the colors of his egg in his armor and Dany dreams of wearing his armor and becoming Rhaegar.  In her wake the dragon dream; she transforms into a dragon and sees the world as a dragon.  This is a dragon-dream equivalent to a wolf-dream experienced by the Starks. 

I don't think the black dragon contains Drogon's soul.  Dany sees his soul rise and depart during his cremation. During MMD's tent ritual, Dany does sacrifice her own blood on the birthing bed so the dragons can be born.  This is why the singing dragon is covered in her blood.  Rhaegar is the singing prince and the singing dragon.

Another dream of Rhaegar at the Trident:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Who is this other part of Dany replaying the battle of the Trident, meeting the Usurper's forces?  Dany dreams that she is Rhaegar, mounted on a dragon.  Only this time, instead of dying, the rebel host is defeated.  The past life is a nightmare and in this second life; the battle between ice and fire is the way it was meant to be.  These aren't Dany's thoughts and memories and only Rhaegar knows the song of ice and fire.  Dany isn't the dominant voice of this dream, she is the small part. 

[bemused]

7 hours ago, zionius said:

Syrio was alive in 298 AC. Willem got sick when Dany was 5, and died not long after that. There are about 9 years gap between their deaths.

Again, not to derail this thread, but just to explain where I'm coming from : for me, it's not settled that Syrio was alive in 298 AC, though someone who claimed to be Syrio was.

(I don't think GRRM is lying to us when he implies that Syrio is dead ... but I do think he's being slippery.) 

I'm generally agreeing with you that details of D&V's expulsion from Braavos could come through the person we met as Syrio, or through Arya (perhaps via some interaction with Phario Forel).

[Darion Storm]

At the end of the day the whole idea that the red door and the lemon tree were actually in Dorne falls flat on its face.

Daenerys remembers being kicked out of the manse by the servants after Willem Darry’s death.

Doran Martell would have to be seriously phoning it in to let this happen. And if it did why would they then go over to the Free Cities to fend for themselves?

[Crona]

The whole Sealord and the Martells deal is a rabbit hole for me. The lemon tree could have been located at the Sealord’s palace, however why didn’t they marry Viserys and Arriane when they became of age? Or when they were kicked out, why didn’t the Martells keep a watchful eye on them or helped them? They knew Dany and Viserys were there. Now, Doran wants to have his son marry Dany but he could’ve been a presence in her life from a young age and the marriage would have been more smooth. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I've always found it a little weird that the lemon tree theories stir up so much controversy among ASOIAF fans (especially among bloggers, who are deliriously opposed to all of them). This is the same fandom that came up with Varys the Merman and Tyrion the Time-Traveling Fetus. Is the possibility that the house in Braavos was actually in Lys or Tyrosh really all that absurd in comparison?

While I doubt that Dany has been to Dorne, I think the lemon tree likely signifies that there are parts of her childhood that she's been lied to or misled about. It adds an additional level of mystery to the story.

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I've always found it a little weird that the lemon tree theories stir up so much controversy among ASOIAF fans (especially among bloggers, who are delirirously opposed to all of them). This is the same fandom that came up with Varys the Merman and Tyrion the Time-Traveling Fetus. Is the possibility that the house in Braavos was actually in Lys or Tyrosh really all that absurd in comparison?

While I doubt that Dany has been to Dorne, I think the lemon tree likely signifies that there are parts of her childhood that she's been lied to or misled about. It adds an additional level of mystery to the story.

Well said!

[Sydney Mae]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:57 AM, Livesundersink said:

Often in the books Daenerys thinks back to the house in Braavos with the red door and a lemon tree in the back garden. I've seen numerous theories that state this could not happen, one statement said that there are no trees in Braavos. Is the climate in Braavos not suited to lemon trees and is it an actual fact that there are no trees at all in Braavos? and if so where is it stated?

The best explanation is a mistake by the writer. 

Just FYI, some types of citrus trees can survive in the colder climates.  Satsuma oranges and hybrids can easily survive Braavosi climate.  Meyer lemon can tolerate down to 6 degrees or 22F. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well said!

Thank you. I really don't understand what it is about this topic that enrages people so much. I think it may be because it became popular after Preston Jacobs made a video about it, and the bloggers all hate him, which shows just how ridiculous the backlash is. I don't agree with any of Preston's theories, but the fact that people get personally offended by hypothetical theories about a fictional book series is mind-boggling. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I've always found it a little weird that the lemon tree theories stir up so much controversy among ASOIAF fans (especially among bloggers, who are delirirously opposed to all of them). This is the same fandom that came up with Varys the Merman and Tyrion the Time-Traveling Fetus. Is the possibility that the house in Braavos was actually in Lys or Tyrosh really all that absurd in comparison?

While I doubt that Dany has been to Dorne, I think the lemon tree likely signifies that there are parts of her childhood that she's been lied to or misled about. It adds an additional level of mystery to the story.

Don't forget the one about Euron glamoring the Dusky Woman. I'm still hoping he wargs the old gal once in a while. 

[maudisdottir]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don't agree with any of Preston's theories, but the fact that people get personally offended by hypothetical theories about a fictional book series is mind-boggling. 

I used to think he was just another person with some whacky ideas, but he never really bothered me until he started the “What you’ve missed” series for show watchers and almost immediately threw in his tinfoil about RL=D, but along the lines of “There’s a mystery about the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. Some people think it’s Jon, AND SOME PEOPLE THINK IT’S DANY”. (Shouting emphasis mine)

This really annoyed me because he was gearing it towards show-only watchers, but “some people” consisted entirely of PJ and his cronies. I thought it was disingenuous of him to try and sway people who hadn’t read the books to jump on his tinfoil wagon. Sure enough, soon after the GOT boards were full of RLD claims based on nothing but PJ’s words of wisdom.

 

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I've always found it a little weird that the lemon tree theories stir up so much controversy among ASOIAF fans (especially among bloggers, who are delirirously opposed to all of them). This is the same fandom that came up with Varys the Merman and Tyrion the Time-Traveling Fetus. Is the possibility that the house in Braavos was actually in Lys or Tyrosh really all that absurd in comparison?

Noticed a lot of this going around and not just with this theory.

Some folks get very touchy when others want to peak behind the curtain to see if something's there. Sometimes they dislike looking behind the curtain in principle, but other times I feel like I've unknowingly trampled on their graves emotionally-invested head canon ideas because some become inexplicably downright vicious if a question is even raised. Sometimes when I'm familiar with another poster's ideas, I can see where they dislike an idea because it works against a different idea that they favor. In this case, Dany's birth being not what they've been told might be seen as a threat to their ideas/wishes for Dany becoming Queen or that it works against a Jon/Dany ship.

A lot of people are invested in Dany's story as its traditionally understood by the fandom. Not so much investment in Varys and any emotional investment in Tyrion is quite unlike that of Dany. Perhaps that's what you're seeing?

It might become worse the longer it takes the remaining books to come out. Head canons will become more ingrained while others will become more bored and dig for more rocks to turn over.

Adding: also noticed that there are different comfort levels for magical conspiracies vs political conspiracies.

[direpupy]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thank you. I really don't understand what it is about this topic that enrages people so much. I think it may be because it became popular after Preston Jacobs made a video about it, and the bloggers all hate him, which shows just how ridiculous the backlash is. I don't agree with any of Preston's theories, but the fact that people get personally offended by hypothetical theories about a fictional book series is mind-boggling. 

When the whole lemongate thing first came up i thoroughly enjoyed the many theories and debates even do i myself believe it to a mistake by GRRM who forgot about the lemon tree when he moved Dany's childhood from Tyrosh to Braavos. However now a days i avoid the topic when a new tread on it appears, because the discussion has become non existent and instead by they end of the first page will have descended in to insults and name calling. A real shame because it just to be a great mental exercise.

I blame entrenchment people have made up there minds and are unwilling to change it no matter what.

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I blame entrenchment people have made up there minds and are unwilling to change it no matter what.

The problem with entrenched ideas is that they are old ideas.  When it becomes the organizing principle for everything else; you might as well be looking at the story with blinders on.  I can't comment about PJ because I have no idea who he is or what he thinks.  If he has had any kind of success or following; then well, jealousies abound.

[direpupy]

Just now, LynnS said:

The problem with entrenched ideas is that they are old ideas.  When it becomes the organizing principle for everything else; you might as well be looking at the story with blinders on.  I can't comment about PJ because I have no idea who he is or what he thinks.  If he has had any kind of success or following; then well, jealousies abound.

Agreed the blinders are the reason they are unwilling to change there mind.

As to PJ most of his theory's are crackpot, but crackpot can be enjoyable. However some people take his theory's as canon and that's dangerous, it is this that has turned many people against him and his followers, aldo these people are not correct in disregarding everything he says just because he is the one saying it, because that makes them just as bad as the people who consider his word canon. 

Personally i am not to bothered by him, and on occasion even intrigued at his idea's.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

19 hours ago, Darion Storm said:

At the end of the day the whole idea that the red door and the lemon tree were actually in Dorne falls flat on its face.

But does it?

19 hours ago, Darion Storm said:

Daenerys remembers being kicked out of the manse by the servants after Willem Darry’s death.

She remembers arriving in Braavos... all we hear are stories from Viserys of Braavos and being kicked out. Amazing how they kept their mother's crown from being taken though, and of course we know there were no usurper's knives...

19 hours ago, Darion Storm said:

Doran Martell would have to be seriously phoning it in to let this happen. And if it did why would they then go over to the Free Cities to fend for themselves?

What if Oberyn brought Dany with him when he went to Braavos to sign the wedding pact because the Martells found her living in Dorne, and like Ned, they don't kill children.

Of course the wedding pact didn't really work out since it seems Viserys never knew about it, Darry died, the sealord died, and Viserys/Dany were off on their wild run from the imaginary usurper's knives while Illyrio spent years working on Dany's marriage to Drogo (but only housed them in Pernos for six months). I think somewhere in there when all the caretaker's were dying (what about the nursemaid and the four loyal men?) Dany and Viserys fell into Illyrio's hands, and he intentionally had them running all over Essos, this kept them out of Doran's reach and reinforced Dany's identity in courts around the world.

On 12/3/2017 at 4:41 AM, bemused said:

Just my own crackpottery (and I don't mean to derail the thread), but I suspect the Sealord of the pact died about the same time as Willem and that Syrio was his first sword, who also died at that time.

Regardless, whatever happened to Syrio, we now know about Phario Forel from the Mercy chapter. I don't know if this is still necessary, but...

I suspect you might be onto something with this line of thinking. I've always suspected Syrio of being a faceless man (Jaquen) and not the real Syrio Forel. In fact I think the fat yellow cat in his story to Arya may be alluding to Illyrio.

But anyway I do hope Arya talks to another Forrel!

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Of course the wedding pact didn't really work out since it seems Viserys never knew about it, Darry died, the sealord died, and Viserys/Dany were off on their wild run from the imaginary usurper's knives while Illyrio spent years working on Dany's marriage to Drogo (but only housed them in Pernos for six months). I think somewhere in there when all the caretaker's were dying (what about the nursemaid and the four loyal men?) Dany and Viserys fell into Illyrio's hands, and he intentionally had them running all over Essos, this kept them out of Doran's reach and reinforced Dany's identity in courts around the world.

Yes, the contract that Dany and Barristan read that doesn't mention Dany at all.  So while I think that Darry took Viserys off to Braavos, Dany wasn't with them. 

Who is the "old bear" then, the one with the soft hands, rather than the rough hands of a fighting master?  If Dany is Ashara's daughter; then it's possible that she was moved at some point to Starfall with Ashara.   Others have pointed out that Arthur Dayne is an allusion to King Arthur and historically Arctorius, the Bear.  So perhaps Arthur isn't just the sword of the morning, but the young bear as well.  Perhaps the old bear is Arthur's unknown older brother or some relative we haven't heard about yet.  So a spell in the south might not be out of the question.  We hear that Ashara's daughter died and also from Cersei that her daughter was stolen from her.

I also think at some point she was hidden on the Summer Islands with their carved animals and spice markets. The smell of spices and perfumes in the markets remind her of home.  A trading port that Dany may have confused with Braavos, since this is what Viserys tells her.  She says she made multiple trips to Braavos.  Maybe she did, but I think it likely the home port was in the Summer Islands and she shipped out with trading and fishing vessels from there.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, the contract that Dany and Barristan read that doesn't mention Dany at all.  So while I think that Darry took Viserys off to Braavos, Dany wasn't with them. 

Who is the "old bear" then, the one with the soft hands, rather than the rough hands of a fighting master?  If Dany is Ashara's daughter; then it's possible that she was moved at some point to Starfall with Ashara.   Others have pointed out that Arthur Dayne is an allusion to King Arthur and historically Arctorius, the Bear.  So perhaps Arthur isn't just the sword of the morning, but the young bear as well.  Perhaps the old bear is Arthur's unknown older brother or some relative we haven't heard about yet.  So a spell in the south might not be out of the question.  We hear that Ashara's daughter died and also from Cersei that her daughter was stolen from her.

I also think at some point she was hidden on the Summer Islands with their carved animals and spice markets. The smell of spices and perfumes in the markets remind her of home.  A trading port that Dany may have confused with Braavos, since this is what Viserys tells her.  She says she made multiple trips to Braavos.  Maybe she did, but I think it likely the home port was in the Summer Islands and she shipped out with trading and fishing vessels from there.

I'm not sure about the Summer Islander's thing... but it's interesting...

As for Dany's grey bear of a protector, I'm certainly not a hundred percent, but a maester would check boxes... They are often described as grey, there are some missing after Robert's Rebelion, it would explain the soft hands, and it would explain how she speaks high Valyrian.

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not sure about the Summer Islander's thing... but it's interesting...

As for Dany's grey bear of a protector, I'm certainly not a hundred percent, but a maester would check boxes... They are often described as grey, there are some missing after Robert's Rebelion, it would explain the soft hands, and it would explain how she speaks high Valyrian.

Well you can find lemon trees in several places including Braavos if you want to pot one and in Dany's dreams, all the doors a red; what stands out are the animal carvings on the beams of the house. This she remembers clearly.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

They found Queen Cersei in the council chambers, seated at the head of a long table littered with papers, candles, and blocks of sealing wax. The room was as splendid as any that Sansa had ever seen. She stared in awe at the carved wooden screen and the twin sphinxes that sat beside the door.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.