House Frey should be respected

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But did Robb Stark hire them in the books? Did Robb ok this or acknowledge this in anyway? 

Book quotes, please. 

Your assumptions are not truth. 

Did he personally meet up with Hoat discuss what payment needs to be made for Hoat's services and have a Maestor draw up a contract and have Hoat sighn it?

No. He never met Hoat. One of his generals did his hiring for him. But he can't wash his responsibility of them being enlisted in the Northern rebellion by that fact alone. The BC switch wasn't something that was unknown nor any of the cruel acts they committed against while wearing wolf pelts. Robb doubtless knew and like a typical lord he shrugged it off as being worth it for his ambitions just as the Ironborn's savagery being worth his ambitions.

[Kandrax]

To quote Ezio Auditore from Assassin's creed series: "Respect is earned, not inherited or purchashed". And i want to ask why some people want innocent childrens of House Frey to be killed? For me they are also victims of RW, because, no matter what they do, people will look  them with disdain for RW, despite a fact that they were powerless to do anything about it. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

To quote Ezio Auditore from Assassin's creed series: "Respect is earned, not inherited or purchashed". And i want to ask why some people want innocent childrens of House Frey to be killed? For me they are also victims of RW, because, no matter what they do, people will look  them with disdain for RW, despite a fact that they were powerless to do anything about it. 

Whoah! No one besides Manderly wants to literally kill all the Freys. And LSH

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Considering that Robb beheaded Rickard Karstark for murdering Tion Frey and Willem Lannister I'm willing to bet he would have done the same to others who committed similar acts of war crimes.

[Varysblackfyre321]

25 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Considering that Robb beheaded Rickard Karstark for murdering Tion Frey and Willem Lannister I'm willing to bet he would have done the same to others who committed similar acts of war crimes.

Those boys were in Robb's custody. He'd be seen to have an obligation to protect them and would feel so. But again the BC's recruitment by Bolton wasn't not known, nor the various atrocitious acts they did nor care about what the Ironborn did to his enemies if it benifitted him. He's not stupid. He's more pragmatic than people give him credit for.

[Impbread]

Im not sure if at has been mentioned up thread or not but the Targaryens broke their marriage with Barratheons during Aegon the V's rule. The Baratheons openly rebelled. Like real men with honor do. They did not pretend to be ok with it and then lure them in and savagely butcher them. They did not just kill these men. They also desecrated their bodies when they were done. As other posters have stated this event is universally looked down upon as an act of villainy not a justifiable revenge.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right morally. It is morally wrong to shove an 8 year old child out of a window. It would have been just as wrong for Robert to kill Tommen, Myrcella, &/or Joffrey but since he didn't do that we don't have to worry about it. 

Surely you see the difference between stealing food or smuggling goods to survive VS murdering someone? 

We don't have to worry about that because Jaimie pushed that 8 year old out the window. Sparring Tommen Mycerlla, and every child Laninster having their head bashed in because Robert has been made were to have been made into a cuck by his wife's own twin and his body guard.

Do I say I place murder on the same level of stealing and smuggling? No. Westeroes however the standard policy to deal with smuggling is beheading like mixer. My point wasn't murdering someone is as bad stealing. My point was the context for an actual is crucial to the actual morality of it.  Tell me you'd condemn Arya for stealing food rather than starve  as much as you'd condemn someone who'd steal food because he's just too cheap? 

You'd condemn Davos for opting to smuggle to support a family as much as you'd condemn a man who smuggles to already increase his oversized pockets?

Hopefully not. Because you'd recognize although the action is the same the actual consequence is dramatically different. Arya stealing bread would save her life, a rich man stealing bread saves him a couple pennies he would never miss, Davos smuggling made sure he and his family were able to get by in relatively comfortable way rather than begger by and always tither on the brink of starvation. Context. You cannot ignore this when a character does something even if society has deemed the action in it of itself wrong. 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you are going on about "readers hindsight" Walder Frey knew very well how sacred the custom of guest right was & chose to break it. There is no reason to think Tywin would not accept the Frey's bending the knee to the IT. That argument doesn't cut it for me

He has every reason to think Tywin would be particularly sever dishing out punishment to the major houses who contributed most to the rebellion and his losses based off the reputation Tywin had cultivated of going away overboard in enacting punishment on his house's enemies. To point to Tywin's more than benighn dealings with the former rebels after the RW for why Frey shouldn't/wouldn't have worried is what I mean by readers hindsight.

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No I wouldn't but guest right isn't some sacred custom of mine. It is in Westeros & Walder breaking guest right is, in part, reason for the Frey's not deserving respect.  I would, however, chastise a man for slaughtering unarmed guests in his own home - whether they had eaten first or not. 

Yeah, in ASOIAF but from readers they deserve no more or less respect than any house whose been pushing this pointless war. A character breaking a custom even a thought important one doesn't mean we the readers show the same level of disgust toward the actions  as the characters.

[Bernie Mac]

24 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Im not sure if at has been mentioned up thread or not but the Targaryens broke their marriage with Barratheons during Aegon the V's rule. The Baratheons openly rebelled. Like real men with honor do. They did not pretend to be ok with it and then lure them in and savagely butcher them. They did not just kill these men. They also desecrated their bodies when they were done. As other posters have stated this event is universally looked down upon as an act of villainy not a justifiable revenge.  

Just Robb's. 

[Nowy Tends]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Just Robb's. 

? What about his mother, whose corpse was stripped and then thrown into the river?

Anyway, whatever you say, House Frey deserves a lot of things but no respect, period.

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whoah! No one besides Manderly wants to literally kill all the Freys. And LSH

I meant readers. And do we have good evidence, that LSH will kill small children? I know that she hanged Pod, but he is(was)12-13.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Whatever respect House Frey might have had, it is lost and with good reason. Guest Rights means something in the books and despite them hedging their bets on the WOFK, times change, things happen and well, Tywin is not there to protect them and the North Remembers. Bye Bye House Frey.

[Tai Pan]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Whatever respect House Frey might have had, it is lost and with good reason. Guest Rights means something in the books and despite them hedging their bets on the WOFK, times change, things happen and well, Tywin is not there to protect them and the North Remembers. Bye Bye House Frey.

Many people hate them now and consider them enemy but I can't really see where they lost respect.  People fear them now.  Anybody would think thrice before breaking their oaths to a Frey.  So in a way the Freys gained more respect.  What they lost is a matter of public relations.  People may hate them now but you can't argue that people will thread more carefully around them.  People in the south will get over it quickly and it's back to business as usual.  The north is a different story but nobody in the north is strong enough to take on the Freys.  The red wedding will continue to be unpopular  and it stained their honor but it was better than losing to Tywin.  It's too risky to stick with Robb and face the possibility of losing your castle and your family. 

What they gained.  Riverrun.  Got rid of fat Walda.  Marriage alliance to the new warden of the north.  Got rid of the Tullys.  Peace.

What they lost.  Popularity.  Negative publicity.  Petyr and Merrett.  Jingle Bells. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do I say I place murder on the same level of stealing and smuggling? No. Westeroes however the standard policy to deal with smuggling is beheading like mixer. My point wasn't murdering someone is as bad stealing. My point was the context for an actual is crucial to the actual morality of it.  Tell me you'd condemn Arya for stealing food rather than starve  as much as you'd condemn someone who'd steal food because he's just too cheap? 

You'd condemn Davos for opting to smuggle to support a family as much as you'd condemn a man who smuggles to already increase his oversized pockets?

Hopefully not. Because you'd recognize although the action is the same the actual consequence is dramatically different. Arya stealing bread would save her life, a rich man stealing bread saves him a couple pennies he would never miss, Davos smuggling made sure he and his family were able to get by in relatively comfortable way rather than begger by and always tither on the brink of starvation. Context. You cannot ignore this when a character does something even if society has deemed the action in it of itself wrong. 

I agree that the circumstances need to be taken into account when considering the crime but how does that pertain to the RW? Arya stealing food to survive is now where on the same planet as Walder breaking guest right because he mad about a broken marriage pact. The marriage pact did not cost anyone their lives. The RW did. 

 

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He has every reason to think Tywin would be particularly sever dishing out punishment to the major houses who contributed most to the rebellion and his losses based off the reputation Tywin had cultivated of going away overboard in enacting punishment on his house's enemies. To point to Tywin's more than benighn dealings with the former rebels after the RW for why Frey shouldn't/wouldn't have worried is what I mean by readers hindsight.

What reason does he have to think Tywin will extinguish his house? Even if he continued on Robb's side of the rebellion & bent the knee to the IT after the war was won Tywin would not have extinguished the house. Do you have any textual evidence that Tywin pulled a 'Rains of Castemere' on someone merely for fighting on the other side of the war? If not then there is nothing to suggest to Walder that this would be the case with him. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree that the circumstances need to be taken into account when considering the crime but how does that pertain to the RW? Arya stealing food to survive is now where on the same planet as Walder breaking guest right because he mad about a broken marriage pact. The marriage pact did not cost anyone their lives. The RW did. 

Again I didn't say stealing equals what Frey did. You said circumstances for doing something extremely taboo in this world don't mitigate the wrongfulness of the action.  That even if doing the moral thing is hard it doesn't mean the "immoral" action is wrong. Disregarding the actual consequences that would follow not committing and context  the RW is crucial to determining how immoral it actually is

 

What reason does he have to think Tywin will extinguish his house? Even if he continued on Robb's side of the rebellion & bent the knee to the IT after the war was won Tywin would not have extinguished the house

Cant be 100% sure how Tywin would treat them but his reputation of dealing with houses who rebell against his family  would lead to the reasonble conclusion particularly harsh on the houses that cost him the most.

Do you have any textual evidence that Tywin pulled a 'Rains of Castemere' on someone merely for fighting on the other side of the war?

You talking about this war? Sorry, I need that simple clarity before I give an answer that's appropriate.

If not then there is nothing to suggest to Walder that this would be the case with him. 

I said more sever 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again I didn't say stealing equals what Frey did. You said circumstances for doing something extremely taboo in this world don't mitigate the wrongfulness of the action.  That even if doing the moral thing is hard it doesn't mean the "immoral" action is wrong. Disregarding the actual consequences that would follow not committing and context  the RW is crucial to determining how immoral it actually is

No I'm saying the circumstances surrounding Walder Frey don't mitigate the wrongfulness of his actions where the RW is concerned. This particular case is not justified IMO. 

 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Cant be 100% sure how Tywin would treat them but his reputation of dealing with houses who rebell against his family  would lead to the reasonble conclusion particularly harsh on the houses that cost him the most

This isn't true though. In this war or any war when has Tywin treated a house on the other side of a war harshly when they bent the knee after wards? 

[Blackwater Revenant]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This isn't true though. In this war or any war when has Tywin treated a house on the other side of a war harshly when they bent the knee after wards? 

^This.

@varysblackfire321

The precedences you are putting forth are not of a house bending the knee after a lost war campaign. The Reynes and Tarbeks were defiant of Tywin, fortified their positions and demanded their own terms of Tywin.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

^This.

@varysblackfire321

The precedences you are putting forth are not of a house bending the knee after a lost war campaign. The Reynes and Tarbeks were defiant of Tywin, fortified their positions and demanded their own terms of Tywin.

Yeah, the situations aren't identical. But enough to any former-rebel house would be reasonable antsy on thinking how he's going to treated should the rebellion fail

[Moiraine Sedai]

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No I'm saying the circumstances surrounding Walder Frey don't mitigate the wrongfulness of his actions where the RW is concerned. This particular case is not justified IMO. 

 

This isn't true though. In this war or any war when has Tywin treated a house on the other side of a war harshly when they bent the knee after wards? 

Are you willing to risk it?

 

[Clegane'sPup]

The only thing House Frey’s can be respected for is that it built the Twins and the crossing. Oh, so you want to take the short cut do you? Then pay my price or take the scenic route.

The SoS epilogue has some interesting information. Merritt is not the most reliable source considering his predicament --- especially at the end.

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue     Lord Walder had ordered the slaughter of the Starks at Roslin's wedding, but it had been Lame Lothar who had plotted it out with Roose Bolton, all the way down to which songs would be played./

Merrett had dared to hope that his luck was finally changing when Roose Bolton chose to wed his Walda instead of one of her slimmer, comelier cousins. The Bolton alliance was important for House Frey and his daughter had helped secure it; he thought that must surely count for something. The old man had soon disabused him. "He picked her because she's fat," Lord Walder said. "You think Bolton gave a mummer's fart that she was your whelp? Think he sat about thinking, 'Heh, Merrett Muttonhead, that's the very man I need for a good-father'? Your Walda's a sow in silk, that's why he picked her, and I'm not like to thank you for it. We'd have had the same alliance at half the price if your little porkling put down her spoon from time to time."/

The final humiliation had been delivered with a smile, when Lame Lothar had summoned him to discuss his role in Roslin's wedding. "We must each play our part, according to our gifts," his half-brother told him. "You shall have one task and one task only, Merrett, but I believe you are well suited to it. I want you to see to it that Greatjon Umber is so bloody drunk that he can hardly stand, let alone fight."/

Stark's direwolf killed four of our wolfhounds and tore the kennelmaster's arm off his shoulder, even after we'd filled him full of quarrels . . ." "So you sewed his head on Robb Stark's neck after both o' them were dead," said yellow cloak.  "My father did that. All I did was drink. You wouldn't kill a man for drinking." Merrett remembered something then, something that might be the saving of him. "They say Lord Beric always gives a man a trial, that he won't kill a man unless something's proved against him. You can't prove anything against me. The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."   "As it happens, you're wrong there." The singer turned to the hooded woman. "Milady?"/

 

It could be said that the Frey’s were merely being loyal the Throne and helping to put down a rebellion, but that is not my opinion. I see nothing honorable or respectable about slaughtering unarmed drunken people at a wedding celebration.

I find it curious that Ramsey in CoK c.60 wanted the Walder boys alive. They are witnesses to what happened at WF.  What prompted my curiosity even more is that sometime before or during the happenings of CoK c.45 Roose decides it’s time to marry again. His choice is a Frey.

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

33 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah, the situations aren't identical. But enough to any former-rebel house would be reasonable antsy on thinking how he's going to treated should the rebellion fail

Isn't this the case with anyone who rebels against any Lord and loses? It's hardly a viable excuse or justification for the Frey's actions.

32 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Are you willing to risk it?

 

The Freys did risk it when they made the decision to rebel against the Crown. Only they weren't willing to face the consequences of their actions, so turned to reprehensible and vile methods to avoid said consequences. An act not worthy of anyone's respect.