Jump to content

Mance Rayder violated guest rights!


Wolf's Bane

Recommended Posts

Even if Mance and/or Jon and/or Mel broke the guest right (I'm not saying they have) the more important questions in relation to this thread are:

1) Whoooooooooooooooooo cares?

2) So what?

3)What's the goal besides "I don't like this character, please join me in a bitching fest about him"?  Something that has gotten old 6 years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/17/2018 at 9:09 AM, Unacosamedarisa said:

And Jon wasn't, is Bernie Mac's point, I think. Mance may have broken guest right, but Jon hasn't, because he wasn't a guest. Guest Right, and the breaking of it, can only affect the Host (Boltons) and the Guest (Mance). 3rd parties who may have facilitated the guests are not included and no breaking of Guest Right can be attributed to them. 

Jon is the man responsible for Mance being in Winterfell in the first place.  Mance is on a mission from Jon.  Jon is indirectly guilty of violating guest rights because he is the man who ordered Mance to bring in Arya.  Even though Jon was not present, he is still indirectly responsible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Even if Mance and/or Jon and/or Mel broke the guest right (I'm not saying they have) the more important questions in relation to this thread are:

1) Whoooooooooooooooooo cares?

2) So what?

3)What's the goal besides "I don't like this character, please join me in a bitching fest about him"?  Something that has gotten old 6 years ago.

You don't but some of us do.  You can't sweep it under the rug.  Enough of the fans do care.  

If you don't like the topic you don't have to participate.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is the man responsible for Mance being in Winterfell in the first place.  Mance is on a mission from Jon.  Jon is indirectly guilty of violating guest rights because he is the man who ordered Mance to bring in Arya.  Even though Jon was not present, he is still indirectly responsible.

1) No guest rights were violated to begin with.

2) Even if they were, and you want to hold Jon "indirectly responsible", you might as well hold Stannis, Melisandre, Ramsay, Roose, the guards who let "Abel" into Winterfell, Jeyne, and pretty much everyone in the story equally responsible for this heinous violation of Ramsay's right to rape and brutalize his fake Arya wife.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is the man responsible for Mance being in Winterfell in the first place.  Mance is on a mission from Jon.  Jon is indirectly guilty of violating guest rights because he is the man who ordered Mance to bring in Arya.  Even though Jon was not present, he is still indirectly responsible.

Blah blah blah;

you can repeat it as much as you want, that won't make it true. The way you keep saying the same counter-truth again and again, without trying to read and understand the other posts, is the behavior of a troll. You don't even try to explain in depth your views, you deposit your turd  in front of the door, then run…

Again, please post ONE quote that could support your nonsense; oh ok, you can't, because  your words are not based on the books, you're here because, as @Lollygag suggested, Jon Snow stole your lunch money, or Ned sent your cousin to the Wall, whatever, obviously it's personal and irrational.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You don't but some of us do.  You can't sweep it under the rug.  Enough of the fans do care.  

If you don't like the topic you don't have to participate.  

But it's still "so what?"
Let's assume Jon/Mance/Mel broke the guest rights against a traitor and a psycho rapist:

What do you want now?
Are you going to defend "poor, innocent Ramsay?"
Are you advocating Mance leaving Jeyne to be raped by dogs would have been the "right" thing to do?
Do you just want to hear everybody validate your dislike of Jon?

Seriously, it's "fun" to see people being shocked about the liberation of a sex-slave.

So it comes back to: whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cares? Who cares if they broke guest rights against the Boltons, of all people?

4 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Gods, old and new.

Divine retribution we fall upon a sinner.


Sure thing. The Seven don't exist. The Old Gods are the collective psyche of the deceased Children of the Forest.
And if they are going to punish every "sinner" in Westeros, there's some more severe cases they can start with. How about they start with the guy who murders, rapes and tortures for fun?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is the man responsible for Mance being in Winterfell in the first place.  Mance is on a mission from Jon.  Jon is indirectly guilty of violating guest rights because he is the man who ordered Mance to bring in Arya.  Even though Jon was not present, he is still indirectly responsible.

Um, no. Mance is the one responsible for being in Winterfell. Jon asked him to go rescue a grey girl on a dying horse in the vicinity of Long Lake.

Nobody can be "indirectly responsible" for violating guest right. Such a thing cannot possibly exist. Guest right is a sacred obligation between a host and the guests in his house, not between a homeowner in his house and somebody else far away. A homeowner in his house has zero obligation under guest rights to somebody else far away, because in that case the homeowner is not a host. And the somebody else far away is not a guest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole argument, that Jon has broken Guest Right because of the actions of Mance, is too "Lawyery" for Westeros. And that's one thing Westeros is lacking... Lawyers. No one's going to be holding Jon accountable for violation of Guest Right due to what Mance does, and arguing for Joint Enterprise laws to be applied... they'll hold him accountable for other crimes, as they see them, perhaps, like letting Wildlings through the Wall, or playing politics. But not for Guest Right violations. 

And I seriously doubt that, as readers, we are supposed to view Jon as having broken Guest Right. We aren't supposed to see him as some sort of villain, as terrible as Walder Frey or Roose Bolton.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It's simple.  Jon spared Mance from execution and ordered him to get Arya.  They both knew the tale of Bael and that was the inspiration for the cover.  Jon provided the spearwives to help make the cover more believable.  The use of Abel is a nice twist on Bael.  Mance and his spearwives rescued fake Arya because they were following Jon's orders.  

Umm wha? Get your facts right, Jon didn't bone Mance so he can turn him into lord'o bones. It was Mel. Jon even assembles a firing squad and killed who he believed to be Mance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 19.04.2018 at 9:18 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

would guess that Mance is collecting information. If Theon could get into WF without attracting attention perhaps Mance could get out the same way. Oh, I think getting Jeyne/Arya out of WF is verra important for multiple reasons.

He is gathering info so Stannis can get in the same way; Abel says ten times the numbers of Stannis can't get the castle by force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

But it's still "so what?"
Let's assume Jon/Mance/Mel broke the guest rights against a traitor and a psycho rapist:

What do you want now?
Are you going to defend "poor, innocent Ramsay?"
Are you advocating Mance leaving Jeyne to be raped by dogs would have been the "right" thing to do?
Do you just want to hear everybody validate your dislike of Jon?

Seriously, it's "fun" to see people being shocked about the liberation of a sex-slave.

So it comes back to: whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cares? Who cares if they broke guest rights against the Boltons, of all people?


Sure thing. The Seven don't exist. The Old Gods are the collective psyche of the deceased Children of the Forest.
And if they are going to punish every "sinner" in Westeros, there's some more severe cases they can start with. How about they start with the guy who murders, rapes and tortures for fun?

So Freys are safe of wrath of gods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Nobody can be "indirectly responsible" for violating guest right. Such a thing cannot possibly exist. Guest right is a sacred obligation between a host and the guests in his house, not between a homeowner in his house and somebody else far away. A homeowner in his house has zero obligation under guest rights to somebody else far away, because in that case the homeowner is not a host.

This seems to be the in-universe understanding. Tywin was consciously involved in the Red Wedding, even if he didn't participate directly, and not a bit concerned that the gods would consider him at fault.

[Tyrion:] "So much for guest right."

[Tywin] "The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine."

[Tyrion:] "Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection."

(SoS, Tyrion VI)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He is gathering info so Stannis can get in the same way; Abel says ten times the numbers of Stannis can't get the castle by force.

I'm guessing you didn't agree with my guess. What say you tell me why you think Mance was interested in how Theon took WF. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Um, no. Mance is the one responsible for being in Winterfell. Jon asked him to go rescue a grey girl on a dying horse in the vicinity of Long Lake.

Nobody can be "indirectly responsible" for violating guest right. Such a thing cannot possibly exist. Guest right is a sacred obligation between a host and the guests in his house, not between a homeowner in his house and somebody else far away. A homeowner in his house has zero obligation under guest rights to somebody else far away, because in that case the homeowner is not a host.

This.Another thing that is being misunderstood by many here.

So, let's refresh our memories. 

host noun 
UK  /həʊst/ US  /hoʊst/ooun (PERSON WITH GUESTS)

B2 [ C ] female also hostess someone who has guests:

We thanked our hosts for a very enjoyable evening.
The local language school is advertising for host families (= families people stay with when they are visiting another country).
 
guest noun [ C ] 
UK  /ɡest/ US  /ɡest/

A2 person who is staying with you, or a person you have invited to asocial occasion, such as a party or a meal:

150 guests were invited to the wedding.
We have guests staying this weekend.
Is he on the guest list?
uk He is a paying guest (= he pays for the use of a room in someone's home).

A2 a person who is staying in a hotel:

We would like to remind all our guests to leave their keys at reception before they depart.

B2 a person, such as an entertainer, who has been invited to appearon a television or radio programme or in a performance:

Our special guest on the programme tonight is Robert de Niro.
Madonna made a guest appearance at the concert.
Simon Rattle will be the guest conductor with the London Symphony Orchestra.
 
(You're welcome)
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The citizens of Westeros understand martin’s guest right better than citizens of the 21 century.  The scene plays out below.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night's Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.         "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.       "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"/

In the ^ above quote it was made clear that Tyrion was not welcome.  Later when Robb changed his mind Tyrion decided winter town was the place to stay.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV      Robb Stark finally sheathed his sword. "I … I may have been hasty with you," he said. "You've done Bran a kindness, and, well …" Robb composed himself with an effort. "The hospitality of Winterfell is yours if you wish it, Lannister."    "Spare me your false courtesies, boy. You do not love me and you do not want me here. I saw an inn outside your walls, in the winter town. I'll find a bed there, and both of us will sleep easier./

No such courtesies were exchange between Mance & Roose or Mance & Ramsey. Ramsey did not say, "My guests. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table." Roose did not say, “My fellow northmen, come let us put our differences aside and let us rejoice.”

Since some people are determined that LC Snow sent Mance to WF and therefore LC Snow via Mance is guilty of breaking guest right ----- I say neither LC Snow nor Mance are guilty of breaking guest right.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2018 at 2:14 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

So why was Mance Rayder at Winterfell and why did he go through the trouble of getting Arya out?  Because he didn't know she was fake and Jon ordered him to bring back his sister.  And he did, in fact, get fArya out of Winterfell.  He definitely was not there to sign a recording contract.  He sings passably but not that good.  

Apparently there are fewer bards in the North than in, say, King's Landing. We don't hear of any other entertainment, and what's a high-class wedding without entertainment? Mance was hired on the spot.

What was he actually in Winterfell for? My thought is that he was interested in the Crypts, which may connect with the cave system the COTF live in and may include the ones that pass under the Wall. It's also been suggested that he was on a scouting expedition for Stannis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...