UK Politics: Iain Duncan Smith introduces death penalty for poor people

[Lyanna Stark]

So is there no place in today's world for people who don't want to assimilate with foreign cultures and pretty much wish to live in a culturally homogonous society, not going out to bother people from other cultures, but not interested in mixing with them either?

No?

At least not if you live in an area where the geography looks like Europe's. I am also uncertain about what "culturally homogeneous" means in this context. Is it your view that the various countries of Europe are all their own culturally homogeneous zones?

[Alex.]

So is there no place in today's world for people who don't want to assimilate with foreign cultures and pretty much wish to live in a culturally homogonous society, not going out to bother people from other cultures, but not interested in mixing with them either?

Nah. Not really. People who want to live like that really need to grow up tbh

[Free Northman Reborn]

No?

At least not if you live in an area where the geography looks like Europe's. I am also uncertain about "culturally homogeneous" means in this context. Is it your view that the various countries of Europe are all their own culturally homogeneous zones?

Yes. But that seems to be eroding rather fast due to rapid immigration from other parts of the world.

Culture is a combination of language, shared history, common heritage and customs.

Increasingly under threat by the trend towards globalization and assimilation.

[MinDonner]

You don't actually know very much about Europe, do you?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Distaste for the EU is pretty much universal in the Conservative Party as well. Though I suppose you could be referring to them as the fringe right, too. I suppose it's inevitable really that a popular policy that sensible politicians regard as economically catastrophic will be default be picked up by demagogues. I see no real alternative.

I think part of the problem is the divide between people who dislike the EU because of how it operates, and those who dislike the EU because of the nature of the policies it imposes. The Left hates certain policies; the Right hates certain policies: would either side think more kindly of Brussels if it simply adjusted its ideological directives? Or would they continue to regard the entire EU structure as a violation of principles, and hence a matter for wholesale structural reform?

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes. But that seems to be eroding rather fast due to rapid immigration from other parts of the world.

Culture is a combination of language, shared history, common heritage and customs.

Increasingly under threat by the trend towards globalization and assimilation.

"Increasingly under threat"? You just pointed out in the line just ahead of that why Europe is already extremely intertwined, regardless of borders.

I mean, as an example, the soldiers in the 30 year war, fought in the 17th century, were from all over Europe, traveled here and there and everywhere and the surviving soldiers didn't necessarily settle where they came from. I dunno, are these people signs of Europe having a shared history or of some sort of cultural homogeneity? Looking at wars and politics of the last 500 years or so, it certainly seems that a lot of countries are intertwined by various means. Trade, wars, economy, alliances, marriages of royals, etc.

Which bit of culture is inherently British (or English, even) as opposed to German, French, Dutch, Swedish or Italian? I mean hell, Queen Liz is mostly German if you look at her family so does she count as British or German?

As a side note, if you are afraid of cultural assimilation, you should look to the influence of the US of A when it comes to constructing a massive cultural hegemony over Europe.

[Free Northman Reborn]

You don't actually know very much about Europe, do you?

I'm pretty much on record in my support for the breakaway of regions from current European countries on the basis of culture. So I am well aware that the current European borders don't reflect cultural boundaries perfectly.

But greater efforts to further unify Europe is the opposite of what is necessary to rectify this problem.

[mormont]

So is there no place in today's world for people who don't want to assimilate with foreign cultures and pretty much wish to live in a culturally homogonous society, not going out to bother people from other cultures, but not interested in mixing with them either?

Culture is a combination of language, shared history, common heritage and customs.

Increasingly under threat by the trend towards globalization and assimilation.

You seem to be labouring under some peculiar misapprehensions, if you don't mind my saying so.

Start with your assumption that individuals have only one 'culture'. That's just not true, and I would argue it's centuries since it has been, if it ever was. 'Culture' is just a word for the stuff that goes along with identity: the history, yes, the customs, sometimes the language, often knowledge of other types. And each of us has multiple identities. I'm a Scot, a Brit, a European, a man, straight, white, an SF fan, a football fan, a gamer. I have a professional identity and culture, a familial identity and culture, a national identity and culture.

The modern world certainly alters things: it makes it easier to share and develop increasingly specific identities and cultures. This board is a great example. In many ways I have more in common with Lyanna or Terra Prime than I do with my neighbours. In some ways you have more in common with me than you do with yours.

Is this a cause for lament? No. Of course not.

What you are actually talking about, and seem to be regretting, is a decline in national identity and culture, which you speak of as if they were the only 'culture'. But that's always been a changeable thing, and often been amongst the least important of people's identities. An Englishman in the middle ages wouldn't honestly have considered that as his sole, or even dominant, cultural identity. His class identity, family identity, and professional identity would have mattered far more.

Meanwhile, very few cultures or societies on earth have ever existed in a state where they maintained a single homogenous identity, unmixed with any other culture, for any period of time, and those that did tended to do so because of the peculiarities of geography rather than the preference of those within that culture. All the evidence suggests that this sort of behaviour would be rather against human nature.

So: no, there is no place for that, but that's not even half the problem with your statement.

[Free Northman Reborn]

"Increasingly under threat"? You just pointed out in the line just ahead of that why Europe is already extremely intertwined, regardless of borders. I mean, as an example, the soldiers in the 30 year war, fought in the 17th century, were from all over Europe, traveled here and there and everywhere and the surviving soldiers didn't necessarily settle where they came from. I dunno, are these people signs of Europe having a shared history or of some sort of cultural homogeneity? Looking at wars and politics of the last 500 years or so, it certainly seems that a lot of countries are intertwined by various means. Trade, wars, economy, alliances, marriages of royals, etc. Which bit of culture is inherently British (or English, even) as opposed to German, French, Dutch, Swedish or Italian? I mean hell, Queen Liz is mostly German if you look at her family so does she count as British or German? As a side note, if you are afraid of cultural assimilation, you should look to the influence of the US of A when it comes to constructing a massive cultural hegemony over Europe.

Good points, all.

My fear is less the amalgamation of European countries than the erosion of European culture by massive immigration from the rest of the world.

This idea that once a refugee makes it to your shores it is almost impossible to drop them off in their country of origin is ludicrous, yet that appears to be the common European union position.

In 50 years time Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, African countries etc cultures will be as strong and homogenous as today, but European culture will be virtually eradicated, thanks to gradual but inexorable immigration.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The same argument was used a century or so ago about Irish people settling in the UK. So I suppose the UK is now Catholic? Oh wait...

[MinDonner]

In 50 years time Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, African countries etc cultures will be as strong and homogenous as today, but European culture will be virtually eradicated, thanks to gradual but inexorable immigration.

This is extra hilarious. Poor European Culture, such a fragile and delicate flower that must be protected, yet apparently is so unappealing that no other continent would dream of adulterating their own ways to adopt any of it! Including the Europeans themselves, in fact, who will soon be abandoning football in favour of... football?, and putting curry sauce on their chips (the horror!), and so on.

[polishgenius]

To stay somewhat in the context of this topic, the idea of preserving 'British culture' in the face of outside influences is, if anything, even more laughable than it is in the rest of Europe. The whole history of the country is a series of immigrations and cultural assimilations (including those cultural touchstones deliberately taken from outside during, for example, the time of Empire. Like tea). You only have to look at the bastard chimera that is the English language to see the truth of that.

In 50 years time Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, African countries etc cultures will be as strong and homogenous as today, but European culture will be virtually eradicated, thanks to gradual but inexorable immigration.

The West, led by America but based obviously on Europe, is the most culturally overwhelming force the world has ever seen. Our culture has historically been and will almost certainly continue to be far more influential on other people and places than they are on us.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Yes. But that seems to be eroding rather fast due to rapid immigration from other parts of the world.

Culture is a combination of language, shared history, common heritage and customs.

Increasingly under threat by the trend towards globalization and assimilation.

There has always been immogration into thr UK, it's just that now they leave the army behind. There's a large asian population in Glasgow (both Chinese asian and Indian subcontinent asian), and te 2nd/3rd generations barely have a trace of their "native" accent. The descendents of the Italian immigrants from the early/mid 20th century are mostly indistinguishable from 'native' Scots.

Religious unrest from immigration is nothingnew; a lot of Irish catholics came over during and after the potato famine, and we still have sectarian problems in Scotland (particularly the west) today. But I suppose those immigrants don't count because they're white.

As for cultural contamination, we get more of that from American TV. So what? Cultures change.

[The Iceman of the North]

Come on Derfel, you'll have to admit that there were a decade or two between the end of the immigration from Ireland and Scandinavia and the new immigration from first England following the Union, then the rest of the empire, and later the rest of the world, when the Scottish National Identity were settled and set in stones, right?

[Mad Monkey]

So is there no place in today's world for people who don't want to assimilate with foreign cultures and pretty much wish to live in a culturally homogonous society, not going out to bother people from other cultures, but not interested in mixing with them either?

There are probably small and isolated communities that are mostly ethnically and culturally homogeneous, but it's going to be hard to enforce that on a nationwide level. Even countries with relatively low levels of immigration are influenced by culture from other countries (such as the aforementioned US media), travel, the work of multinational corporations, etc. Culture is like oxygen that way, it flows where it will.

[paddington]

I was under the impression that most of our "culture" was constructed, mainly by the Victorians.

Never really understood it anyways, so I am not worried too much by being assimilated by someone. Is it possible to define Englishness, or Britishness.

[Usotsuki]

Come on Derfel, you'll have to admit that there were a decade or two between the end of the immigration from Ireland and Scandinavia and the new immigration from first England following the Union, then the rest of the empire, and later the rest of the world, when the Scottish National Identity were settled and set in stones, right?

Decade might be a slight exaggeration, probably the better part of a week though, or at least a Tuesday or most of a Tuesday morning, certainly enough time to eat a small bowl of porridge with salt if one were really, really hungry.

PS No Defoe quote yet? This thread disappoints.

[Horza]

Decade might be a slight exaggeration, probably the better part of a week though, or at least a Tuesday or most of a Tuesday morning, certainly enough time to eat a small bowl of porridge with salt if one were really, really hungry.

PS No Defoe quote yet? This thread disappoints.

Oh all right - but next time is someone else's turn:

Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,

That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:

In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,

Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.

Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,

And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:

From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,

With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.

In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,

Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.

While their rank daughters, to their parents just,

Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.

This nauseous brood directly did contain

The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.

Which medly canton’d in a heptarchy,

A rhapsody of nations to supply,

Among themselves maintain’d eternal wars,

And still the ladies lov’d the conquerors.

The western Angles all the rest subdu’d;

A bloody nation, barbarous and rude:

Who by the tenure of the sword possest

One part of Britain, and subdu’d the rest

And as great things denominate the small,

The conqu’ring part gave title to the whole.

The Scot, Pict, Britain, Roman, Dane, submit,

And with the English-Saxon all unite:

And these the mixture have so close pursu’d,

The very name and memory’s subdu’d:

No Roman now, no Britain does remain;

Wales strove to separate, but strove in vain:

The silent nations undistinguish’d fall,

And Englishman’s the common name for all.

Fate jumbled them together, God knows how;

What e’er they were they’re true-born English now.

The wonder which remains is at our pride,

To value that which all wise men deride.

For Englishmen to boast of generation,

Cancels their knowledge, and lampoons the nation.

A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,

In speech an irony, in fact a fiction.

A banter made to be a test of fools,

Which those that use it justly ridicules.

A metaphor invented to express

A man a-kin to all the universe.

For as the Scots, as learned men ha’ said,

Throughout the world their wand’ring seed ha’ spread;

So open-handed England, ’tis believ’d,

Has all the gleanings of the world receiv’d.

Some think of England ’twas our Saviour meant,

The Gospel should to all the world be sent:

Since, when the blessed sound did hither reach,

They to all nations might be said to preach.

’Tis well that virtue gives nobility,

How shall we else the want of birth and blood supply?

Since scarce one family is left alive,

Which does not from some foreigner derive.

[Usotsuki]

The old traditions of Morris Dancing, Defoe Quoting and Binge Drinking Alcopops will never die.

*wipes away a patriotic tear and returns to his (slightly disappointing) yakiniku salad*

[Werthead]

In 50 years time Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, African countries etc cultures will be as strong and homogenous as today, but European culture will be virtually eradicated, thanks to gradual but inexorable immigration.

China has moved towards a more open market and capitalist viewpoint (even if seen through the lens of one-state communism) in order to compete effectively with the West. Middle Eastern countries are also adopting more Western stances (women's rights being expanded in Saudi Arabia, for example) as they see the end of their reliance on oil looming on the horizon and the need to diversify their economies into banking and services (hence what we see in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and now Jeddah in Saudi Arabia). In India the caste system is less prevalent, especially in the big cities, than it has been in the past.

If anything, Western values and culture has overruled and is affecting the rest of the world much more than vice versa. We are seeing some signs of a kickback against that in Russia, China and even in allies like Japan, with a greater desire to hold onto their own identifies, but I'd say the danger of assimilation is much more to the people being assimilated than the European or American cultures doing the assimilating.