Meet the New Production Designer

[SM4e]

I am really amused by how much some posters seem to be obsessed about Kevan Lannister. To me, he lifts right out of the story fairly easily with his actions taken on by more established characters but they have included him in as much as he's been sitting around in the background of a few scenes over the first few seasons so he might do some stuff later on.

But really, he's a glorified extra at this point.

I am willing to bet anyone here a substantial amount of internet dollars that his role in counseling Tyrion after his arrest and through the trial will be taken up by Jaime.

I guess, one can say that I am obsessed with Kevan. He's in my top5 of favorite characters. I don't know why, I just enjoyed reading though his eyes and also admired his coversations with his nephews and niece.

As I said, it would just make sense to reintroduce him now (after being not there in Season 3) and also increase his importance because they have to make it obvious that Kevan is very important for the stabaility in King's landing after Cersei's arrest.

It's possible, but I wouldn't like it. Their final scene was just too intense.

Cool. I was checking out the twitter of the guy who plays Lancel (Eugene Simon), no indication that he was filming this season, either.

Yeah, I think Eugene Simon confirmed that he was not called for Season 4 (but he doesn't appear at this point of the story anyways, does he?).

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, I think Eugene Simon confirmed that he was not called for Season 4 (but he doesn't appear at this point of the story anyways, does he?).

Yes, Lancel is at the PW, too. Also, if they ever set up any of the Cersei and her lovers bit with Jaime, he's the only lover we've seen Cersei take on the show, I believe. That's this season, too, when Tyrion tells Jaime "she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know."

[SM4e]

Yes, Lancel is at the PW, too. Also, if they ever set up any of the Cersei and her lovers bit with Jaime, he's the only lover we've seen Cersei take on the show, I believe. That's this season, too, when Tyrion tells Jaime "she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know."

I assume they include a scene of Cersei getting laid with Meryn Trant who replaces they Kettleblacks. *egh...* no offense to Ian Beattie though. ;D

[Le Cygne]

I assume they include a scene of Cersei getting laid with Meryn Trant who replaces they Kettleblacks. *egh...* no offense to Ian Beattie though. ;D

Or Bronn! There was a funky little interlude in the passageway in season 3, he was literally standing between Tyrion and Cersei.

[SM4e]

Or Bronn! There was a funky little interlude in the passageway in season 3, he was literally standing between Tyrion and Cersei.

Haha, I would love that and it would fit Bronn's character. I just imagined him to be Cersei's lover on the one hand on on the other hand (Jaime hand joke hehehe) practicing with Jaime. :D

[Le Cygne]

Haha, I would love that and it would fit Bronn's character. I just imagined him to be Cersei's lover on the one hand on on the other hand (Jaime hand joke hehehe) practicing with Jaime. :D

Oh, that would be rich! :)

[Queen of Whores]

While at this point it could be argued Kevan can lift out of the story easily, he becomes very important later, during AFfC and ADwD. He is pretty much the last competent person in King's Landing, and is the one that arranges the Walk of Shame, and also tries to fix the mess Cersei left. This seems like a pretty important role. Who else would take that role if not him? Not Pycelle, since to this point he has been shown to be a bit of a blubbering fool, and certainly not Mace Tyrell, since he's even worse. I suppose they could introduce Randyll Tarly (and I'd like that, I love Randyll's character), but then it loses the affect of it being Cersei's own uncle that arranges the Walk, and we lose the emotional impact of Kevan dying.

[boojam]

Cool. I was checking out the twitter of the guy who plays Lancel (Eugene Simon), no indication that he was filming this season, either.

Yeah Eugene Simon has been wanting back on the show since season 2...

[Red Raven]

As other say. George makes it plain that he does not that level of a role. He can suggest, he can inform, but it's D&D who decide. You don't know what importance George places on anything seen or not seen in the show, and so should not make the assumption that any particular thing -- any detail at all, omitted, changed, or transported whole into the show -- is done with his specific agreement/support/approval, short of him specifically saying in some interview that he agreed to or approved of some detail.

They consult him at times. They are free to dismiss his advice, and have done so in the past -- he's said as much -- and will continue to do so in the future. This means one cannot use the notion that "he's involved" to mean "concerns about this thing going against his vision must be wrong". Of course, contrariwise, our uncertainty about his views of how the show does things means one should not positively argue that he disapproves of some specific detail. Even, as an example, his repeatedly noting that Littlefinger on the show is "very different" from the character in the books doesn't necessarily carry a judgment to it. It's just a fact that he notes. Is he happy or unhappy that Littlefinger is so different? Only George truly knows. All we can do is speculate.

Ran, if you say so, though there was no need for you to be quite so...possessive. I was led to believe he was involved more than he was. But regardless, it supports the point I was trying to make that the TV show is not the books and the show can freely go in other directions with emphases on different things.

ETA:

Queen of Whores, I tend to agree. I can't think of a suitable replacement for Kevan if characters need to be streamed down. In season one Pycelle was shown to be more vigorous than he let on, plus he did get in some digs on Tyrion so he's not as addled as he pretends to be, however he hasn't been framed as likeable so the impact of his death wouldn't mean as much. I have a hunch Randyll Tarly still has a major role to play after Dance so I doubt he'll be used as a surrogate.

[Hiram McDrogon]

I was checking out the twitter of the guy who plays Lancel (Eugene Simon), no indication that he was filming this season, either.

Interesting.

I guess I'd better put the tea-leaf reading in spoilers:

Neither Kevan nor Lancel are particularly important this season, but they're more important later in King's Landing - as the last competent Lannister, and as the main "real" character for the religious resurgence and the Sparrow. Of course, their absence this season may not mean anything, but it could also indicate what the show future holds for the King's Landing story.

[Le Cygne]

Interesting.

I hope they come back. I really liked him as Lancel, too, I think he was spot on.

[Annara Snow]

I don't see why they would have even bothered to introduce a character and cast an actor (rather than an extra), if the main role this character later plays in the series was going to be given to someone else. Short of the actor being unavailable for some reason, it makes no sense.

[King Tommen]

I don't see why they would have even bothered to introduce a character and cast an actor (rather than an extra), if the main role this character later plays in the series was going to be given to someone else. Short of the actor being unavailable for some reason, it makes no sense.

I would argue that when you boil it right down, now that we have his entire role in the books revealed to us, Kevan's main role in the series is to be introduced as a sane Lannister advisor to Cersei once she starts to fall apart under the pressures of her rule. He would be the stable branch that Cersei could have chosen to utilize in order to better keep hold on the realm but rejects out of pride and paranoia. And Varys killing him is an indicator that there is going to be no hope for stability under Cersei and things are just going to continue to fall apart and get worse. That's his role and it's important.

But the other stuff he does in the first 3 books I would argue are not that significant and I found especially that he was shoehorned into the Tyrion trial arc more by default than any good reason. There is not really any other character Tyrion can interact with as his defense counseller and go-between during the trial so that's why Martin used him. And he kind of just fades back into the woodwork after Tyrion's sentencing until they need him again to pop up to interact with Cersei.

But if you've decided to bring Jaime back to King's Landing for whatever reason so he's there for the trial, dramatically it is infinitely more interesting to have him be the one to share scenes with Tyrion during his imprisonment and trial. Seeing as Jaime's the one to come back and free him afterwards, it would flow together so much more coherently to have Jaime be the one to interact with him leading up to that point. Jaime and Tyrion clearly have affection for each other, it stands to reason that Jaime would want to hear his side of the story and help support him during the trial. You could even play the same progression as they did in the books with Kevan and have Jaime doubt Tyrion's innocence as the trial went on and the evidence was presented. Then at the end, he would change his mind or even overlook his suspicions because of their sibling bond to help him escape.

I think Kevan has a part to play but they'll bring him to the forefront when he's ready to really affect the story which wouldn't be until S5. In the meantime, they have to take advantage of putting NCW and Dinklage in a room together as much as possible before they're separated for good (or at least a long time) after this season.

[Newstar]

I don't see why they would have even bothered to introduce a character and cast an actor (rather than an extra), if the main role this character later plays in the series was going to be given to someone else. Short of the actor being unavailable for some reason, it makes no sense.

Lancel did play a fairly prominent role in Season 2, which makes his subsequent disappearance from the show a bit of a head-scratcher. Season 3 I can understand, maybe, since there wasn't much for him to do and Tommen was left out of Season 3 as well, but Season 4, too?

Maybe they just didn't care for the actor. There seemed to be a lot of complaining about Lancel's actor online from what I can tell, just as there was with Daario's former actor. That seems the most likely explanation, since there seem to be no scheduling issues with Lancel's actor. If Lancel does come back in a big way, I'd expect the writers to do what they did with Tommen and recast the character.

If GRRM had thought those particular interactions between Jorah and Dany were important, D&D would have put them in there.

Ran already answered this, but we know of at least one instance where GRRM warned D&D about doing something and they went ahead and did it anyway: killing off Mago in Season 1. He also not too long ago expressed concern, if I'm not mistaken, about D&D apparently writing out Willas and Garlan Tyrell. It's not as if GRRM enjoys some veto power over what he considers truly important when it comes to the show; if that were the case, all the major characters during the TV version of the Blackwater battle would have been wearing helmets. :D GRRM can make suggestions, even strong suggestions, based on his foreknowledge of the books, but D&D can choose and in the past have indeed chosen to ignore certain suggestions.

[SoManyVows]

I would argue that when you boil it right down, now that we have his entire role in the books revealed to us, Kevan's main role in the series is to be introduced as a sane Lannister advisor to Cersei once she starts to fall apart under the pressures of her rule. He would be the stable branch that Cersei could have chosen to utilize in order to better keep hold on the realm but rejects out of pride and paranoia. And Varys killing him is an indicator that there is going to be no hope for stability under Cersei and things are just going to continue to fall apart and get worse. That's his role and it's important.

But the other stuff he does in the first 3 books I would argue are not that significant and I found especially that he was shoehorned into the Tyrion trial arc more by default than any good reason. There is not really any other character Tyrion can interact with as his defense counseller and go-between during the trial so that's why Martin used him. And he kind of just fades back into the woodwork after Tyrion's sentencing until they need him again to pop up to interact with Cersei.

But if you've decided to bring Jaime back to King's Landing for whatever reason so he's there for the trial, dramatically it is infinitely more interesting to have him be the one to share scenes with Tyrion during his imprisonment and trial. Seeing as Jaime's the one to come back and free him afterwards, it would flow together so much more coherently to have Jaime be the one to interact with him leading up to that point. Jaime and Tyrion clearly have affection for each other, it stands to reason that Jaime would want to hear his side of the story and help support him during the trial. You could even play the same progression as they did in the books with Kevan and have Jaime doubt Tyrion's innocence as the trial went on and the evidence was presented. Then at the end, he would change his mind or even overlook his suspicions because of their sibling bond to help him escape.

I think Kevan has a part to play but they'll bring him to the forefront when he's ready to really affect the story which wouldn't be until S5. In the meantime, they have to take advantage of putting NCW and Dinklage in a room together as much as possible before they're separated for good (or at least a long time) after this season.

Judging from the Ice and Fire: A Foreshadowing featurette that aired tonight, it appears that your instincts were correct, King Tommen. Jaime will be replacing Kevan and Tyrion's primary defense counselor and go-between during the latter's trial. This seems to me to be an economical condensation of characters (much like Bronn replacing Ilyn Payne as Jaime's sparring partner, which was also confirmed tonight). I, for one, am excited about the potential of this new dynamic between the characters, and to see the additional strain it puts on Jaime's relationship with Cersei.

And Kevan fans, I wouldn't worry too much. There's still a possibility that he could return in Season 5 (whether he's played by Ian Gelder or another actor), when he becomes truly essential to the plot.

[Annara Snow]

I would argue that when you boil it right down, now that we have his entire role in the books revealed to us, Kevan's main role in the series is to be introduced as a sane Lannister advisor to Cersei once she starts to fall apart under the pressures of her rule. He would be the stable branch that Cersei could have chosen to utilize in order to better keep hold on the realm but rejects out of pride and paranoia. And Varys killing him is an indicator that there is going to be no hope for stability under Cersei and things are just going to continue to fall apart and get worse. That's his role and it's important.

But the other stuff he does in the first 3 books I would argue are not that significant and I found especially that he was shoehorned into the Tyrion trial arc more by default than any good reason. There is not really any other character Tyrion can interact with as his defense counseller and go-between during the trial so that's why Martin used him. And he kind of just fades back into the woodwork after Tyrion's sentencing until they need him again to pop up to interact with Cersei.

But if you've decided to bring Jaime back to King's Landing for whatever reason so he's there for the trial, dramatically it is infinitely more interesting to have him be the one to share scenes with Tyrion during his imprisonment and trial. Seeing as Jaime's the one to come back and free him afterwards, it would flow together so much more coherently to have Jaime be the one to interact with him leading up to that point. Jaime and Tyrion clearly have affection for each other, it stands to reason that Jaime would want to hear his side of the story and help support him during the trial. You could even play the same progression as they did in the books with Kevan and have Jaime doubt Tyrion's innocence as the trial went on and the evidence was presented. Then at the end, he would change his mind or even overlook his suspicions because of their sibling bond to help him escape.

I think Kevan has a part to play but they'll bring him to the forefront when he's ready to really affect the story which wouldn't be until S5. In the meantime, they have to take advantage of putting NCW and Dinklage in a room together as much as possible before they're separated for good (or at least a long time) after this season.

That was my point. His main role will be in the next season, so I don't see why people think that he's going to be cut from the show just because he's not in this one, even though they bothered to cast him in the first place despite him not having anything that substantial to do in the previous seasons.

They aren't going to bring him this season just to stand around at the wedding or the trial - guest star appearances cost money.

Lancel did play a fairly prominent role in Season 2, which makes his subsequent disappearance from the show a bit of a head-scratcher. Season 3 I can understand, maybe, since there wasn't much for him to do and Tommen was left out of Season 3 as well, but Season 4, too?

Maybe they just didn't care for the actor. There seemed to be a lot of complaining about Lancel's actor online from what I can tell, just as there was with Daario's former actor. That seems the most likely explanation, since there seem to be no scheduling issues with Lancel's actor. If Lancel does come back in a big way, I'd expect the writers to do what they did with Tommen and recast the character.

I was talking about Kevan. When it comes to Lancel, the reason why he's not in season 4 is even more obvious: he has nothing to do this season. He was mostly absent from ASOS as well and

he only comes back to play a role in AFFC. It's just one scene, but a really big and important one, and then he's gone again, until he becomes Cersei's accuser (in case they write him into a scene; in the book, Kevan just mentions it).

I don't see why we would start assuming that he will be recast - there's nothing to suggest that, and they aren't going to recast everyone just because some fans didn't like the actor. (It's quite possible that they recast Ed Skrein because they realized he couldn't commit to the show, especially in light of the recent news, and they recast the Tommen actor because he's too young for an expanded role.) Especially not when they would need to waste a lot more time on establishing who he is, in order not to confuse the viewers, and

he really just needs to have that one scene with Jaime in season 5.

[Borghild]

Ran already answered this, but we know of at least one instance where GRRM warned D&D about doing something and they went ahead and did it anyway: killing off Mago in Season 1. He also not too long ago expressed concern, if I'm not mistaken, about D&D apparently writing out Willas and Garlan Tyrell. It's not as if GRRM enjoys some veto power over what he considers truly important when it comes to the show; if that were the case, all the major characters during the TV version of the Blackwater battle would have been wearing helmets. :D GRRM can make suggestions, even strong suggestions, based on his foreknowledge of the books, but D&D can choose and in the past have indeed chosen to ignore certain suggestions.

If it deviated so far that he had strong objections he could end his collaboration (such as it is) with the show. That's his biggest veto power. If he did he wouldn't be the first author to do so.

The bickering between Daenerys and Mormont in ASOS was really stupid anyway, as bad as a cheesy telenovella. I hope the producers change the whole thing and make their story less cringeworthy.

[Ran]

George has contractual obligations tied to the rights to Game of Thrones, so no, he can't just "end the collaboration". The authors you cite generally had nothing to do to begin with with the productions adapted from their works, so it was easy enough for them to distance themselves.

[Han Snow]

George has contractual obligations tied to the rights to Game of Thrones, so no, he can't just "end the collaboration". The authors you cite generally had nothing to do to begin with with the productions adapted from their works, so it was easy enough for them to distance themselves.

So does this mean that George does possess a veto power over certain decisions? Because if he doesn't I can only imagine how I would feel if other people were ruining my life's work and I was obliged to participate in the act unable to stop it!

D&D remind me so much of Lindelof and Cuse, the powers behind another tv show called Lost. I loved that show but its last season left me so bitter and disappointed, and funny thing is George was also a fan and commented on its pathetic ending. My point here is that I hope GOT doesn't become the poop on my doorstep by the time it ends...

[Mr Fixit]

So does this mean that George does possess a veto power over certain decisions? Because if he doesn't I can only imagine how I would feel if other people were ruining my life's work and I was obliged to participate in the act unable to stop it!

Well, then we can be thankful that George doesn't think someone else is ruining his life's work while he's obliged to participate. Right? :agree: