Season 4 Impressions

[WTFSalami]

Jaqen no longer looks like the actor that originally played him, so how could they hire the same actor?

[protar]

Jaqen no longer looks like the actor that originally played him, so how could they hire the same actor?

Just say he was simply temporarily changing his face to demonstrate his powers to Arya. Or leave that implied. I definitely think that Jaqen should replace the Kindly Man.

[Arkash]

It remains to be seen how important the baby switch will be, though I could potentially see it being cut especially if Val/Dalla is. It would be an awful shame though, and another large departure from the books.

Aint giving up on Val yet. There is still good ways to introduce her in season 5.

Like, she shows up at the Wall to deliver a captive Mance his baby, anoucing that the mother died. It would tie her story back with the books and give Mance something to do early episodes of the season.

[WTFSalami]

Just say he was simply temporarily changing his face to demonstrate his powers to Arya. Or leave that implied. I definitely think that Jaqen should replace the Kindly Man.

Eh, that's kinda goofy to me. I'd rather see a terrifying skull-faced man change into a kindly old man.

Leave the artist formerly known as Jaqen as the guy he changed into at the end of Season 2, assuming we ever see him again.

[The Monkey]

Does anyone know if the admins have invested in better servers in anticipation of S4? Last season, the site would crash every five minutes during the first 24 hours of an episode's release.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

On the Sept scene, I just finished season one rewatch and the scene where Jamie says the war for cersei you know what is physical too, and cersei sort of resists him to no avail, so there is a hint within the show context that their relationship is a little like this.

You think? I thought the S1 scene was a pretty straightforward "her mouth says no but her eyes say yes" moment. There is absolutely no correlation between that and what is being discussed in S4. The difference between flirting and rape is not a simple matter of degrees. To me, that's a bit like saying "seeing how those 2 brothers used to wrestle around with each as children, we should have known that one would eventually murder the other."

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Just say he was simply temporarily changing his face to demonstrate his powers to Arya. Or leave that implied. I definitely think that Jaqen should replace the Kindly Man.

I agree. I am a bookreader and the Oldtown/Maester stuff confuses the heck out of me. I don't think that plotline is going to make it to screen. If they have Jaquen be the KM, that will reinforce to show watchers where Arya is, and what she's going to be doing there.

Re: Bronn - I've been wondering if they might include some of the Bronn and the Stokeworths plotline. It would provide some comic relief (depending on how it's done) and it's also part of what starts to drive Cersei crazy, how she can't control things the way she is accustomed to doing. We also don't know if Bronn has a future part to play when Tyrion makes it back to Westeros. If not that, then Bronn being Jaime's sounding board would be cool.

If the showrunners need some filler, they could go to some of those off-screen plotlines like The Hound on the Quiet Isle, Osha and Rickon on Skagos, Gendry with the BWB (if he makes it back there in the show-verse).

[jaimecersei]

You think? I thought the S1 scene was a pretty straightforward "her mouth says no but her eyes say yes" moment. There is absolutely no correlation between that and what is being discussed in S4. The difference between flirting and rape is not a simple matter of degrees. To me, that's a bit like saying "seeing how those 2 brothers used to wrestle around with each as children, we should have known that one would eventually murder the other."

i'm really hoping that the sept scene comes across this way: "her mouth says not but her eyes and body/mannerisms say yes." basically i just hope its rough sex

[protar]

I agree. I am a bookreader and the Oldtown/Maester stuff confuses the heck out of me. I don't think that plotline is going to make it to screen. If they have Jaquen be the KM, that will reinforce to show watchers where Arya is, and what she's going to be doing there.

Oh I still think we'll get Oldtown on screen, it seems set up to be far too important in TWOW. And I'm not really sure how you can call it confusing when it hasn't really started yet. Jaqen will act as the KM and then go to Oldtown at the end of the season.

[Lord Varys]

Not sure if Jaqen could work as kindly man. Arya likes him and is connected to him. The kindly man is just kind to her, nothing more. He is a stranger, no one, really, and that's the point there.

[protar]

Not sure if Jaqen could work as kindly man. Arya likes him and is connected to him. The kindly man is just kind to her, nothing more. He is a stranger, no one, really, and that's the point there.

It would be a different dynamic, but for the show he fills the role perfectly fine. One possibility I saw suggested was to use Tom Wlashchica but have him playing another FM with the same face (or to imply that.). So the interaction wouldn't have that old friendship there.

[boojam]

Jaqen no longer looks like the actor that originally played him, so how could they hire the same actor?

In the book was changed back from The Ugly Little Girl to her name-day face.

Actually Jaqen knows a way to do face-changing that Arya has not learned yet.

Whatever can be done can be undone.

[Tyrion1991]

Yes, there is a very good reason that cannot happen, namely the fact that it would be 100% different from Dany's motivations in refusing Quentyn and 100% different from what Dany actually did (marry Hizdahr for political reasons/to ensure peace, despite her feelings for Daario, and send Daario to the Yunkai as a hostage). I can't believe that you would actually suggest that D& D should completely change characters' motivations and the nature of their actions and that that wouldn't make a difference. Really?

*facepalm* I don't know whether to :bang: or :rofl:

Why the hell should the show strive to accommodate people who can't think of a reason why someone would want to free slaves?!

Not to mention, how can someone be interested in Dany's storyline if they don't even get that she's the kind of person who wants to free slaves and save the victims of abuse (which she was even trying to do in season 1, as soon as she had any kind of power)? Or do they just want to see the cool dragons?

Dany had excellent reasons to stay in Meereen. Staying in Meereen showed that she had matured and started to realize that she cant't just free slaves and stop their abuse and then leave and expect everything to be perfect. When you overturn a bad regime, you need to put a new social structure in its place. So instead of "oh great, I've freed these slaves, let's go now and start an invasion of Westeros", she feels responsibility to those people and stays. And "how can I rule the Seven Kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city" is an excellent question.

I guess that doesn't mean a thing to those who watch the show (or read the books) just to see Dany setting her dragons on the Lannisters or "dragons vs iIce zombies!" but I think they're following the wrong series in the first place.

I am sorry but its the truth. Dany has been kept in a holding pattern. Theres no reason the conflicts Dany encounters as a leader or personally cannot be accomplished with Westerosi characters in a Westerosi setting; which is where the bulk of the plot is.

For example. Instead of going to Meereen. Dany lands in Oldtown and takes that city. However, like in Meereen, she is beset by the problems of ruling the city and wants to do well by them as she faces resistence she can't deal with. As a result, Dany decides to marry one of Lord Hightowers sons to win peace. However, her enemies are gathering pace, her dragons eating people and alienating the people. At the same time she has to set aside her love for the young rakish mercenary captain from Lannisport. So when Quentyn Martell arrives and offers to marry her she still refuses because doing this would not solve her immediate problem of trying to be a good queen in Oldtown.

Think that ticks all the boxes but you get my point. There is 0 reason why you cannot tell that type of story and address all the themes GRRM wanted to talk about and allow Dany to return to Westeros.

GRRM has kept Dany in a holding pattern in Essos since the first book.

I like to feel that the story is going somewhere and that the writer isn't going Robert Jordan on me and dragging the story out with superfluous subplots and characters.

So i pose the question. What is the specific benefit of telling this story in Essos over telling it in Westeros? What specifically makes such an essosi story good and better to read about or more compelling than if it took place in, you know, the real heart of the story where things matter.

Also, as regards the show. Season 4 will already have done her as Queen of Meereen, her relationship with Daario and Hidzhar. Another season of her ruling the same city and wrestling with the same issues will be very jarring.

[Rashtibram]

Dany's return to Westeros was always going to be a part of the series' endgame. If people are expecting differently, I don't think they're paying enough attention to the way the story works. Scrapping the five year gap admittedly created a problem for Martin with her storyline, however, as he pretty much needed to create material for her until the Battle of Meereen could happen and her story could be joined with Tyrion's; it's why I'm devoutly hoping the show greatly simplifies that arc and places the battle in 5x09.

[Widows_Blood]

Uhhh because if she lands in Oldtown and conquers that city that would force the Iron Throne to take her seriously and go to war with her. Obviously George doesn't want that part of the story to happen yet or it would have already happened. Mereen makes more sense as a culmination of her Essos arc. A former slave embarking on a moral crusade to end slavery, while trying to inhibit her own "Fire and blood" inclinations to try and be a good and just leader. Its apart of her learning what it takes not only to be a leader but the type of person she wants to be. Does she want to be a peacemaker or a conqueror? This is vitally important before the final chapter of her endgame in Westeros. Its like in all those sports movies where a person/team has to learn a bunch of shitty lessons before they're ready to face their final challenge/objective.

[Clariana]

My thanks to Elio and Linda for the opening comments... I'm in the UK and "record" has just been pressed... Here goes!

[Tyrion1991]

No it was never meant to be part of the "endgame" until very recently.

Originally GRRM was going to do a trilogy with the second novel dealing with Danys invasion of Westeros.

Before he abandoned the five year gap, just after ASOS was finished, he intended to make book 4, A Dance with Dragons, focus on Danys invasion of Westeros. With the plan being for another two novels after that. ie, half the series with Dany in Westeros.

This is all in the wiki on this site BTW.

So its incorrect to say that Danys endgame was always going to be in Westeros. Westeros was meant to be a much more substantial and larger part of Danys story. Not the last book as looks almost certain. Once she gets to Westeros, Essos becomes about as relevant as Ashai. The problem is that GRRM, for one reason or another, has kept pushing back Danys invasion of Westeros. I fail to see how this is different than Robert Jordan dragging out other plotlines for some of his characters.

Yes, they take her seriously as a threat and replace the slaver army and besiege Oldtown. Makes much more sense to have Dany have this struggle whilst fighting her real enemies instead of inventing the six or more (Volantis, Yunkai, New Ghis, Tolos, Elyria, Mantarys) slaver cities who we know aren't the true enemy.

[Faint]

Well, since this thread has already veered off-topic anyway, and this place looks as good as any, I wanted to solicit opinions on tonight's ratings. Does anyone think we will see 6.5 million live viewers?

I'll settle for 6 million plus but my personal hope is that the finale gets well over 7 million live viewers.

[Tyrion1991]

There was a graph on winteriscoming.net which listed all the ratings. They tend to be very high on the first episode and then drop sharply before slowly climbing back up.

Been like that every season so I think we'll get higher ratings for this season but the same pattern will be followed.

[AnotherCrannogman]

I hope the Theon torture ends. It was not in the books, only the outcome, and I wish that was how they dealt with it in the show.