Sun Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The IB extending a loan to Stannis at this point in the story, while Tywin is still alive and upholding his obligations to the IB, does not make sense. Why endanger whatever payments they'll be getting from the Iron Throne while Tywin is in control by prolonging the war and further jeopardizing their investment by betting on Stannis, the much weaker opponent, surviving Tywin? What if Tywin kills Stannis? Who repays the IB their loan to Stannis? Shereen? In the books the IB turned to Stannis after Tywin's death and Cersie's refusal to honor the debt. That made sense. The way the show has done it does not, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Crashing Waves Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The IB extending a loan to Stannis at this point in the story, while Tywin is still alive and upholding his obligations to the IB, does not make sense. Why endanger whatever payments they'll be getting from the Iron Throne while Tywin is in control by prolonging the war and further jeopardizing their investment by betting on Stannis, the much weaker opponent, surviving Tywin? What if Tywin kills Stannis? Who repays the IB their loan to Stannis? Shereen? It's a preemptive move, as Davos pointed out. Once Tywin is dead (which might not be too far off given his age) the Lannister house will be under Cersei and Jaime's control who are completely incapable in financial matters. He also made it clear that Stannis was in his prime and losing a war against Tywin was unlikely given he had the backing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It's a preemptive move, as Davos pointed out. Once Tywin is dead (which might not be too far off given his age) the Lannister house will be under Cersei and Jaime's control who are completely incapable in financial matters. It doesn't work. By loaning money to Stannis, you prolong the war, further bleeding the IT and the Lannister's coffers, thus jeopardizing their own payments. Also, why risk betting on an unknown quantity like Stannis over a known quantity like Tywin, a man with whom the IB has dealt for years, since the time of the Mad King? It's a gigantic risk for the IB to take. Especially considering the Tyrell alliance and the state of Stannis' affairs at the moment, the absence of backing for him from the other houses of Westeros, and his own lack of a male heir. It does not make sense for any bank to take such a risk. They've made a heavy bet on the Lannisters keeping the IT, a bet that's being honored by a man they know, why risk it by backing Stannis and having Tywin find out? Why risk it by prolonging the war and weakening the Lannister's hold on the IT? It doesn't make sense. Once Cersie reneges on the loan, then it makes perfect sense for the IB to turn to Stannis, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkash Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Hey, we're not even a hundred per cent sure the IB did give gold to Stannis. Davos money could be stolen, for all we know ! Unlikely, but I think Stannis will quickly explain what happened at the IB to Jon in the finale episode (before, hopefully, the Winterfell proposal by Ygritte's pyre). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It doesn't work. By loaning money to Stannis, you prolong the war, further bleeding the IT and the Lannister's coffers, thus jeopardizing their own payments. Also, why risk betting on an unknown quantity like Stannis over a known quantity like Tywin, a man with whom the IB has dealt for years, since the time of the Mad King? It's a gigantic risk for the IB to take. Especially considering the Tyrell alliance and the state of Stannis' affairs at the moment, the absence of backing for him from the other houses of Westeros, and his own lack of a male heir. It does not make sense for any bank to take such a risk. They've made a heavy bet on the Lannisters keeping the IT, a bet that's being honored by a man they know, why risk it by backing Stannis and having Tywin find out? Why risk it by prolonging the war and weakening the Lannister's hold on the IT? It doesn't make sense. Once Cersie reneges on the loan, then it makes perfect sense for the IB to turn to Stannis, not before. I don't think the Iron Bank cares too much WHEN the loan is paid off. Only that it is eventually repaid. A longer period without repayment just means more interest. As Davos points out, Stannis isn't an unknown quality, he is (at least in show universe) the only military commander on the same level as Tywin. Tywin is old. He could die, either by accident or scheming. Then the Lannister regime is screwed. This way either the Lannister win and the Iron Bank writes off the Stannis gold as a loss. But if he does win, then it's insurance on getting the rest of the debt paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I don't think the Iron Bank cares too much WHEN the loan is paid off. Only that it is eventually repaid. A longer period without repayment just means more interest. As Davos points out, Stannis isn't an unknown quality, he is (at least in show universe) the only military commander on the same level as Tywin. Tywin is old. He could die, either by accident or scheming. Then the Lannister regime is screwed. This way either the Lannister win and the Iron Bank writes off the Stannis gold as a loss. But if he does win, then it's insurance on getting the rest of the debt paid. No he is not. Especially not in the show's universe. All we saw in the show is an unlikable Stannis who burns people, and is so hated by the rest of Westeros that when his brother dies, most of his army, and the houses backing them turn to the Lannisters. A man who fell for Tyrion's trap at Blackwater and was taken by surprise and routed by Tywin. It was obvious from the scene that the IB knows little of Stannis, and what they knew wasn't complimentary. Are we supposed to believe that they would take a known smuggler's character testimonial? Also, as things stand, Stannis is far more likely to die at war than Tywin is likley to die in KL. Add to it that from prior evidence, there absolutely nothing to suggest that the realm would rally to Stannis' side if and when Tywin dies. The IT still has the Tyrrels with all their wealth and armies, as well as the armies of the IT and those of the Lannisters. Stannis has nothing but 4000 soldiers, and whatever sellsword company the IB money can buy him. It's a losing hand. After Stannis goes to the wall, rallies the Northmen around him, gets a possible influx from the Wildings, then he's a viable bet against Cersie, especially once the fractures between the Tyrells and the Lannisters start surfacing. In the show the IB backing Stannis doesn't make sense whichever way you slice it. It's just not sound business. You do not back the weaker side and in doing so risk your existing relationship with the stronger side without a powerful reason. Tywin maybe dying is not reason enough, and it certainly isn't a new reason. Tywin is 67 years old this year, he was 65 years old when the war started, and the IB didn't see a risk in extending loans to IT then. Side note: Ofcourse in the book we can add further speculation based reasoning as to why IB is backing stannis that is not relevant to the show at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I think it makes perfect sense. The Iron Bank is using Stannis to exert pressure on Tywin. If Tywin doesn't pay, they know he never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominusNovus Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 "Agency agency whitewashing character assassination butchery agency." You people win the buzzword awards. Good god, if I never saw the word 'agency' in a literary context again, I would be a happy man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkbringer Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 No treatment is as bad as what Jackson did to Denethor. At least with Stannis we have some scenes (such as those with Shireen, and when he frees Davos from the dungeons) highlighting that he's a conflicted moral figure, and not just an unrepetent tyrant. I will say that like Stannis, Denethor's sense of duty to the realm was replaced almost entirely with lust for power, but the difference is that Stannis is still a competent commander, at least during season 2. Denethor on the other hand doesn't know where his armies are, doesn't want to call to Gondor for aid, and is actually using the the lost seeing stones to spy on those he thinks are trying to usurp his reign. In the books, Denethor drives himself insane trying to SAVE Gondor using the Palantri, and has been actively fighting Mordor his entire life. It's even mentioned that he's a seasoned warrior, who only gave up a more proactive role on the field in order to better rule the kingdom. Instead we get a guy sending Faramir on suicide missions, (that are tactically sound in the books) and eating chicken while his troops get murked. I think that while Stannis has been given the short end of the stick where writing is concerned, he's not so far gone that he can't be redeemed. It all depends on how the shit at Castle Black goes down. The showrunners haven't proven to me that they intend to completely betray the books, which is why I think that Jon's POV, where he comes to sympathize with Stannis and his cause, is going to go a long way in showing the Unsullied that there's a hell of a lot more to him than what we saw in season 3. I might be too optimistic at the moment, but whatever. Someone from our camp has to be. Actually, I agree, more or less.Maybe I exaggerated, but i do think that the abominable ShowStannis moments do have a Denthorish tang to them. I actually am somewhat optimistic too, a part of me hopes its just the crudeness of telly that makes them do it. The motive i guess, as you mentioned, would be to tear him down just to build him up. An even more optimistic (unhinged?) part of me asks; why has Dillane given practically no interviews? Why are they going to such odds to make him unsympathetic? D&D know the ending, is this an attempt to distract our attention from the final victor? Optimistic much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNF Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm seeing a lot of comments suggesting the the IB scene somehow portrayed him as weak because he didn't really push the Iron Bank into believing that he is the best etc. However, I think it showed that he was 1) Not particularly enthusiastic about this idea and 2) That he didn't feel as if he had to convince/beg. If anything, the fact he doesn't get down on his hands and knees and lets someone else do the talking instead showed that he was unwilling to go that low. Hell, the way he looked at the bench that the bankers offered him to take a seat on said it all really. He is a King deserving of a throne, not a begger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I think it makes perfect sense. The Iron Bank is using Stannis to exert pressure on Tywin. If Tywin doesn't pay, they know he never will. Why pressure and antagonize someone who just last episode finished lecturing his daughter on why the Iron Bank MUST be payed? No negotiation, no delays, the IB must be payed as a matter of survival, that was Tywin just last episode. Why would this Tywin give the IB reason to doubt his intentions or ability to pay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Nobles Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Why pressure and antagonize someone who just last episode finished lecturing his daughter on why the Iron Bank MUST be payed? No negotiation, no delays, the IB must be payed as a matter of survival, that was Tywin just last episode. Why would this Tywin give the IB reason to doubt his intentions or ability to pay? Davos covered this. It's not Tywin that the Iron Bank doubts. It's who would be in charge if Tywin dies. So the Iron Bank puts the screws to him to get as much as they can before that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 This was a good Stannis episode. He is much more interesting and enjoyable when he's away from Melissandre. I love Davos and this episode showed why one should love Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonsnake Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 In terms of Stannis seeming weak, I think that's simply the result of the uncanningly modern-seeming setting of the bank, clashing with the notions of honour, pride and prestige that in other environments are easier to exhibit. He acted like a an obsoletely pompous king might act in a bank. (But can't know kings like that are extinct and banks, on the other hand, prevail) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 So what is Stannis going to do with his money? Re-hire Saan. Is he going to hire sellswords? Or just passage to the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Stephen Dillane is the shit. It's the writing that's the problem. Oddly enough, the nuance that's missing from the writing is only mildly tolerable because of the complexity he brings to the character in his performance. Word (I get urban when agreeing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thornhart Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 D$D are both huge cunts. I lost faith in TV Stannis awhile ago. His complete belief in everything Meli says is completely out of character. Not only does he think the Red God will make him King, but he also thought the dragon statues would come alive and fight for him? Actually thinking killing his nephew will do anything, showing a lust for power and not a desire for law, completely removing his legendary sense of humor, going along with the burnings, wanting to rape Meli, wanting to kill Meli, treating Davos like a bitch and not a friend, wearing black all the time so he looks evil, doing that fucking tongue thing, etc. This is all bullshit. Dumb&Dumber clearly want him to be evil, I don't see that changing. I Alliser to take all of Stannis' cool moments at the Wall, since he seems to be more sympathetic in the TV show. I'm sure Davos will join at the Wall, so that way he can explain the everyone why Stannis is King and his story for him, while Stannis just looks off into the distance evilly. But I'm sure they will make up for it by giving Stannis some new scenes. Maybe he can order someone likable like Pep to be burned to assert his authority and show everyone how much he loves R'hllor. They can also cut out his interrogator and just give his lines to Stannis. can't wait to see Stannis threaten to rape Asha, it will totally make up for all the good Stannis moments cut out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFeastForDragons Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Loved the scene! First proper Stannis/Davos conversation this season and just as good as Seasons 2's. So did the Iron bank just give money to Stannis? Why was Sallador there? I thought he was finished with them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Why pressure and antagonize someone who just last episode finished lecturing his daughter on why the Iron Bank MUST be payed? No negotiation, no delays, the IB must be payed as a matter of survival, that was Tywin just last episode. Why would this Tywin give the IB reason to doubt his intentions or ability to pay? That's the thing though, Tywin CAN'T pay the Iron Bank. House Lannister is running on empty and the Crown is equally in massive debt due to Littlefinger's borrowing from...the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank may not know about the former but they certainly know about the latter. Tywin knows they have to pay the Iron Bank but they wouldn't keep bringing up how they need to pay it if they were secure in their ability to conjure enough gold to handle it. Gold which they don't have. The Iron Bank clearly doesn't think House Lannister will pay its debts, which is why they decide to support Stannis. I admit, it'd be clearer if we had seen Tywin miss a few payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Loved the scene! First proper Stannis/Davos conversation this season and just as good as Seasons 2's. So did the Iron bank just give money to Stannis? Why was Sallador there? I thought he was finished with them . It appears as though show Salladhor lives in Braavos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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