[Book Spoilers] EP410 Discussion

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

...I have the sneaking suspicion that they have more of a clue of how to serve up a

complex plot and complicated characters, sustain an unusual fictional world than GoT?

You could argue that GRRM has difficulty doing so. At least, he's had difficulty doing so over the last 14 years and his last two books.

[Florina Laufeyson]

What the fuck does the Hound/Brienne fight have to do with feminism?

Yeah im still waiting for this answer. I guess no one could give a solid one. :dunno:

Tyrion/Tywin. Despite some of the changes to dialogue, I thought this was mostly handled well. The shitting gold line would have been too comical for tv.

Yeah. I told my mum about that line and how Tyrion says it in his head. Its a very good line and she understood it. But she also said: "If he said that out loud it would sound kind of...cheesy?" It really would have been a mood killer and really bad if the line was heard out loud at that moment. However, im pretty sure someone in episode 1 of next season is probably going to say it in some form.

[Gort]

I agree entirely -- there aren't any moral lessons at all to be gained from fantasy. It's different metaphysics, epistemology, literally magic-land. Which is why I thought the whole discussion of, "Jaime is a rapist!" to be boring. We don't *learn* anything from fantasy, nor can we make moral pronouncements.

I was simply addressing the ability to suspend disbelief in the Hound vs. Brienne combat, taken as-is. But, you're right, for all we know Brienne is wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Strength and has a +5 ring of speed, plus prayed to Odin for stamina.

How was The Hound's festering injury going? Might have had an effect.

[new djinn]

I think it is Season 1 for Robb - there is a scene where Robb suggests they back Stannis briefly but is overwhelmed by the Northerners who don't want to follow a King far away from the North anymore. Guessing Jon knew why his dad was executed, and what he accused Joffrey of being, and rightfully assumed based on Stannis being next in line that Ned was supporting his cause. Can't remember him ever finding out directly though.

Well, guess i was mistaken in thinking that it was Stannis letter that spread the whole incest thing to the Realm, but when Robb confronted Jaime about it just after the letter, it really did seemed like they tough Ned had been arrested in charges of treason against Joff without the specifics. The thing is that if Robb knew of Ned's support to Stannis before the KitN thing and didn't tried to contact him, it really casts Robb unfavorably and puts a dent on the ''Northern Honor'' thing, making them no different that the Ironborn(in political motivation).

[nara]

Well, guess i was mistaken in thinking that it was Stannis letter that spread the whole incest thing to the Realm, but when Robb confronted Jaime about it just after the letter, it really did seemed like they tough Ned had been arrested in charges of treason against Joff without the specifics. The thing is that if Robb knew of Ned's support to Stannis before the KitN thing and didn't tried to contact him, it really casts Robb unfavorably and puts a dent on the ''Northern Honor'' thing, making them no different that the Ironborn(in political motivation).

I don't think there's any way that Robb could know about Ned's support for Stannis, since Ned's letter to Stannis was intercepted. However, he could probably piece things together after receiving the incest letter. Ned is executed for denying Joff the throne + Joff is a bastard = Ned dying for trying to keep someone from stealing Stannis's throne. Unfortunately, this was after KITN declaration.

[BlueDragon]

Indeed. Unsullied fans also found Stannis' arrival to be more in a heroic vein. It was a Big Damn Heroes moment and Stannis' fairness with hearing Jon out really solidified that Stannis is really not a bad guy.

You disgust me. That guy's post was in no way a bigoted message. The fact you are quick to literally shame someone for agreeing with your point tells me you are everything that does damage to otherwise great causes.

I hadn't made a single point in this whole thread, so he sure could not have been agreeing with me.

If he was speaking against hate speech, he did a piss poor job of it and deserved to be called on it.

I repeat: I made no point at all. I recognized hate speech and called someone on it. Then someone else intervened and I called him on it.

I also reported the first comment as was appropriate.

I haven't read most of this thread, but what I have read looks to be about as ill informed and illogical and plain ridiculous as I have seen around here in a long time.

Whatever set people off, it certainly wasn't anything I said because, I repeat for those of you who are making assumptions: I have not made a single comment about the episode. Only comments about others who are displaying ignorance and hatred.

Thank you very much. I am not interested in talking with those who can't seem to understand what caring for other human beings means, how we shouldn't slur religious groups or women or the disabled, etc.

[deadphoenix]

Well, guess i was mistaken in thinking that it was Stannis letter that spread the whole incest thing to the Realm, but when Robb confronted Jaime about it just after the letter, it really did seemed like they tough Ned had been arrested in charges of treason against Joff without the specifics. The thing is that if Robb knew of Ned's support to Stannis before the KitN thing and didn't tried to contact him, it really casts Robb unfavorably and puts a dent on the ''Northern Honor'' thing, making them no different that the Ironborn(in political motivation).

I could be wrong about how Robb knew / found out but there isn't much doubt that Robb and the Northerners knew the proper succession to the throne. They were motivated by revenge for Ned's death and were never going to fall in line with Joffrey, but they do also make a conscience choice to also not back Stannis (they even briefly discuss backing Renly.) From that regard they are the same as the Ironborn although the motivations are very different.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

A thread derail has been deleted and a user suspended.

Let's take the discussion back on track please.

[/MOD]

[espresso]

I've heard someone say that this one appeared in a talk between Littlefinger and Robin Arryn

Forgive Me should be Jorah pleading for forgiveness from Dany (4x08), I Only See What Matters is the scene with Jaime and Cersei (Cersei says the line) :)

Thanks, both of you. I saw the Darth Sansa scene again, and Take Charge of Your Life seems Sansa's theme, coming right after LF peptalk with Robin.

[High Sparrow Little Bird]

Yeah im still waiting for this answer. I guess no one could give a solid one. :dunno:

Yeah. I told my mum about that line and how Tyrion says it in his head. Its a very good line and she understood it. But she also said: "If he said that out loud it would sound kind of...cheesy?" It really would have been a mood killer and really bad if the line was heard out loud at that moment. However, im pretty sure someone in episode 1 of next season is probably going to say it in some form.

It's kind of like in Season 1 when Cersei says to Ned, "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die". This sounded a bit comical.

[teej6]

I just saw D&D's commentary from Inside the Episode. And here are some of the stuff they said that stood out:

Weiss (who I think everyone agrees is the one that dislikes Stannis most) states that Stannis will always feel a sense of obligation to Ned Stark, which sort of bodes well for how they will treat Stannis' character in future seasons. If they portray Stannis as the champion of the North and the Stark cause, that should get the audience rooting for Stannis.

Weiss states that the dragons are the only kids Dany will ever have. So for all those who think that by the end ADWD, Dany has become fertile again, prolly not

Apparently, D&D meant for Shae to have been truly in love with Tyrion. If that's the case I still don't understand why she lunged at him with a knife.

Arya walking away was denying the gift of mercy to the Hound. To me it looked more like at the end she didn't want to be the one to kill him.

That's all I remember. I don't understand people saying that Stannis entry music sounded evil. I thought the music worked and he looked badass. And to top it all he acknowleged Ned Stark.

On a separate/unrelated note I believe I saw Pedro Pascal in the subway today. I'm almost certain it was him.

[jarl the climber]

Well, guess i was mistaken in thinking that it was Stannis letter that spread the whole incest thing to the Realm, but when Robb confronted Jaime about it just after the letter, it really did seemed like they tough Ned had been arrested in charges of treason against Joff without the specifics. The thing is that if Robb knew of Ned's support to Stannis before the KitN thing and didn't tried to contact him, it really casts Robb unfavorably and puts a dent on the ''Northern Honor'' thing, making them no different that the Ironborn(in political motivation).

I sort of thought that Robb did not know about the letter that Ned wrote to Stannis til after he had been crowned. Stannis made a pointed reference to it to Cat when she showed up for the parley with Renly. Still it does't change my opinion of Robb with his Father dead it was his call as to what he was going to do. If Robb had known Neds true position sooner or if his deal with Cersei to take the Black had gone through things could have gone different.

[The Night's Prince]

Ok the grabbing of the Valyrian Steel and holding on to it was just comical. His hands would have been ribbons. Fail on the importance and rarity of such steel.

[new djinn]

I sort of thought that Robb did not know about the letter that Ned wrote to Stannis til after he had been crowned. Stannis made a pointed reference to it to Cat when she showed up for the parley with Renly. Still it does't change my opinion of Robb with his Father dead it was his call as to what he was going to do. If Robb had known Neds true position sooner or if his deal with Cersei to take the Black had gone through things could have gone different.

That was my impression. Robb knew that Ned was arrested for treason against Joff but either didn't believe or tough that there must have been a good reason. Only after the KitN thing, he got Stannis letter and by then it was too late to back down. But if Jon(at the wall) knew in S1, then Robb should've knowned before the KitN, which would made him willingly refuse to follow Ned's honorable choice and pull a Balon. It would, IMO, paint Robb as less honorable that he latter claims to be. Or it maybe be another of those toughless plot changes D & D are so fond of. It's not like Robb wasn't shortchanged in the show before.

[jarl the climber]

That was my impression. Robb knew that Ned was arrested for treason against Joff but either didn't believe or tough that there must have been a good reason. Only after the KitN thing, he got Stannis letter and by then it was too late to back down. But if Jon(at the wall) knew in S1, then Robb should've knowned before the KitN, which would made him willingly refuse to follow Ned's honorable choice and pull a Balon. It would, IMO, paint Robb as less honorable that he latter claims to be. Or it maybe be another of those toughless plot changes D & D are so fond of. It's not like Robb wasn't shortchanged in the show before.

On a practical level, Robb needed to stay King because if he backed down his army might desert him. Without having any knowledge of any sort of communications between Robb and Stannis we can see that Renly at least was willing to give him an out, he could continue using the title of King as long as he allied himself to Renly and swore fealty to him. Cat never even tried to negotiate with Stannis and his pointed remark to Cat makes me think that this option was not on the table with Stannis, his policy was 100% bend the knee or be destroyed.

[Florina Laufeyson]

It's kind of like in Season 1 when Cersei says to Ned, "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die". This sounded a bit comical.

I dunno. Cersei's line worked really well but i do see what you mean. The delivery was too smug so it came off as a little lulzy. So if Tyrion said to Tywin: "You do not, in fact, shit gold." it would have sounded ridiculous. Someone is gonna make a snarky comment about it in season 5, ive got money on it. It could be Bronn too.

On a separate/unrelated note I believe I saw Pedro Pascal in the subway today. I'm almost certain it was him.

Oh dats wiggy!

Also, Stannis' entry theme sounds just plain bamfy more than evil.

Ok the grabbing of the Valyrian Steel and holding on to it was just comical. His hands would have been ribbons. Fail on the importance and rarity of such steel.

The call back here was strong but fell a little short because context was odd. This was supposed to be a call back to Cat grabbing that Valyrian steel dagger during Bran's attack. Sandor doing the same thing is supposed to conjure up images of Cat protecting her child. which is really one huge reason i was outright expecting LSH to show up in the end of the episode. Sandor believes he is protecting Arya in a way, but also protecting himself.

Sadly, the execution of this call back wasnt as well delivered as it should have been.

[James Arryn]

I dunno. Cersei's line worked really well but i do see what you mean. The delivery was too smug so it came off as a little lulzy. So if Tyrion said to Tywin: "You do not, in fact, shit gold." it would have sounded ridiculous. Someone is gonna make a snarky comment about it in season 5, ive got money on it. It could be Bronn too.

Oh dats wiggy!

Also, Stannis' entry theme sounds just plain bamfy more than evil.

The call back here was strong but fell a little short because context was odd. This was supposed to be a call back to Cat grabbing that Valyrian steel dagger during Bran's attack. Sandor doing the same thing is supposed to conjure up images of Cat protecting her child. which is really one huge reason i was outright expecting LSH to show up in the end of the episode. Sandor believes he is protecting Arya in a way, but also protecting himself.

Sadly, the execution of this call back wasnt as well delivered as it should have been.

Re: grabbing the sword, my mind leapt immediately to Rob Roy.

About Stannis, Ned...that was if anything generous to Stannis. In the books, he's even more of a dick on the subject; literally turns offering Cat condolences for Ned's recent death into a harangue about how Ned is among the many who did not prioritize Stannis Baratheon enough.

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah im still waiting for this answer. I guess no one could give a solid one. :dunno:

Yeah. I told my mum about that line and how Tyrion says it in his head. Its a very good line and she understood it. But she also said: "If he said that out loud it would sound kind of...cheesy?" It really would have been a mood killer and really bad if the line was heard out loud at that moment. However, im pretty sure someone in episode 1 of next season is probably going to say it in some form.

Put money that the shit gold line will be uttered by someone in a snarky manner to start next season. Think Bronn is the best choice, but really could be anyone learning the news. Could be how we meet the Martells.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Re: grabbing the sword, my mind leapt immediately to Rob Roy.

About Stannis, Ned...that was if anything generous to Stannis. In the books, he's even more of a dick on the subject; literally turns offering Cat condolences for Ned's recent death into a harangue about how Ned is among the many who did not prioritize Stannis Baratheon enough.

I think its been like two decades since i saw Rob Roy lel.

And i agree with the rest. Stannis came out looking really goddamn good. I found it wonderful that my mother yelled out "STANNIS!!!!" when his guys rode in. Something magical about that.

Put money that the shit gold line will be uttered by someone in a snarky manner to start next season. Think Bronn is the best choice, but really could be anyone learning the news. Could be how we meet the Martells.

Maybe! The line is up for grabs and its gonna probably be pretty great when it finally is delivered.

[Janicia]

On a practical level, Robb needed to stay King because if he backed down his army might desert him. Without having any knowledge of any sort of communications between Robb and Stannis we can see that Renly at least was willing to give him an out, he could continue using the title of King as long as he allied himself to Renly and swore fealty to him. Cat never even tried to negotiate with Stannis and his pointed remark to Cat makes me think that this option was not on the table with Stannis, his policy was 100% bend the knee or be destroyed.

Things that were not obvious at the time become clear in hindsight. When Ned was arrested and beheaded, Cersei was controlling news coming out of the capital, and neither Robb nor Jon had the full story. But after the twincest became common knowledge and rumors had a chance to percolate, it would be obvious why Ned tried to depose Joffrey and who Ned supported instead. Jon has been north of the wall, but Castle Black has been receiving letters the whole time. Jon actually has access to a very good information source in the person of Slynt, who probably hasn't entirely kept his mouth shut.

I don't believe that Ned's name carries all that much weight with Stannis. Stannis isn't entirely thrilled with the Starks - he sentenced Robb to death with the blood leech, and Ned is bound up with unhappy memories of Robert in his mind. And Jon Snow can be taken as living proof that Ned wasn't entirely honorable. Anyway, Stannis is meritocratic. I think invoking Ned's name gets Stannis' attention, but Jon himself gets Stannis' respect.