The Inevitable Return of the Middle East and North Africa Thread (aka MENA 15)

[DanteGabriel]

I don't mean to start shit by this, but assuming you've grown up in the US, how is the inception of the entity of Israel viewed there generally? Is the Zionist movement justified/ explained by a mixture of WW2 fallout and Biblical rights to the land? To a person who doesn't have a keen interest in Middle Eastern politics.

The understanding I grew up with, and I can't say I speak for all Americans, is that Israel was created because the Jews deserved a place of their own after the Holocaust because they'd been persecuted everywhere, and there was probably an implication that the land was empty and no one minded much anyway. The cavalier British approach to partition, displacement of Palestinians, were glossed over or not mentioned at all. I don't even think I learned it was the British who set the borders until I was an adult. I probably just thought it was done by the UN or something.

[Mexal]

The understanding I grew up with, and I can't say I speak for all Americans, is that Israel was created because the Jews deserved a place of their own after the Holocaust because they'd been persecuted everywhere, and there was probably an implication that the land was empty and no one minded much anyway. The cavalier British approach to partition, displacement of Palestinians, were glossed over or not mentioned at all. I don't even think I learned it was the British who set the borders until I was an adult. I probably just thought it was done by the UN or something.

Pretty much what I was brought up to understand as well.

[Shryke]

Support for Israel in the US varies ALOT with age too. Gets lower the younger you get as the views on the Israel situation have been getting alot more nuanced for decades now. Your hardliners are mostly old people and crazy christians.

And politicians, but politicians in general are way more conservative then the US population.

[straits]

Well, that sounds realistic. I wonder if mainland Europe populations have far more conflicted views on the same topic.

[Clueless Northman]

There's definitely a risk that, when the next round of fighting is over, most people in pretty much every single Western country will see Israeli government and possibly IDF as just as bad as Hamas, if the current fighting goes on for too long and if the next cycle is just as bad.

By now, it should be obvious to any sane Israeli political leader that the biggest threat in the long-term isn't purely military, but is a global PR disaster - just like Vietnam - that might turn off even the most powerful and staunchest ally .

[ljkeane]

The cavalier British approach to partition, displacement of Palestinians, were glossed over or not mentioned at all. I don't even think I learned it was the British who set the borders until I was an adult. I probably just thought it was done by the UN or something.

It wasn't the British who set the borders in Palestine, they were opposed to partition. Partition was largely driven by the US through the UN, which did set the borders of two states but that was superseded by the Jewish side winning the subsequent conflict.

The British bear responsibility for basically throwing their hands up and saying they'd had enough in 1948 (fighting against Jewish nationalists and having to intern Holocaust survivors wasn't a popular thing to do post WW2). But the US was the primary driver of partition after screwing the British over by agreeing to support a single state during the Anglo-American committee on Palestine then totally ignoring it afterwards.

[Shryke]

It wasn't the British who set the borders in Palestine, they were opposed to partition. Partition was largely driven by the US through the UN, which did set the borders of two states but that was superseded by the Jewish side winning the subsequent conflict.

The British bear responsibility for basically throwing their hands up and saying they'd had enough in 1948 (fighting against Jewish nationalists and having to intern Holocaust survivors wasn't a popular thing to do post WW2). But the US was the primary driver of partition after screwing the British over by agreeing to support a single state during the Anglo-American committee on Palestine then totally ignoring it afterwards.

There's only so much you can blame the British, given what was going on and the attacks they were the target of.

[Arakan]

Well, that sounds realistic. I wonder if mainland Europe populations have far more conflicted views on the same topic.

I think it depends where in Europe...after all, during the Cold War, there was a clear divide in support and there is the history of the 2nd WW and the Holocaust...

post-war Germany had and has and will have a policy of "unbreakable friendship" with Israel and the economic support for Israel (direct and indirect) is second-to-none in the world (albeit often not well known).

I think the reasons for this policy are very clear. Germany should always support Israel against any kind of external thread. This is one of the fundamental cornerstones of German foreign policies.

that said, sometimes a friend needs advice when you think he moves in a wrong direction...

This is basically the sentiment here.

[ljkeane]

There's only so much you can blame the British, given what was going on and the attacks they were the target of.

I don't know you can actually blame them quite a lot. There probably wouldn't have been a conflict in 1948 if they hadn't endorsed Jewish nationalism in the Holy Land in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration basically as an excuse for their Imperialism almost certainly intending to play the Jews and the Arabs in the region off against each other. But, yeah, they probably weren't the worst of those involved in 1948 in Palestine. Not that it makes it good to stand aside and watch it happen.

[Galactus]

There's only so much you can blame the British, given what was going on and the attacks they were the target of.

You can pretty much blame the british for everything :p And with a lot of justification too.

[peterbound]

Support for Israel in the US varies ALOT with age too. Gets lower the younger you get as the views on the Israel situation have been getting alot more nuanced for decades now. Your hardliners are mostly old people and crazy christians.

And politicians, but politicians in general are way more conservative then the US population.

Neither old nor Christian. Hell, I'm a fucking atheist, and I'm fully in support if Israel.

I think you might know people that are anti Israel, or run in those circles. None of the people I know are anything but pro Israel. Most if them are military or middle America though, not the pampered youth.

[Shryke]

Neither old nor Christian. Hell, I'm a fucking atheist, and I'm fully in support if Israel.

I think you might know people that are anti Israel, or run in those circles. None of the people I know are anything but pro Israel. Most if them are military or middle America though, not the pampered youth.

I'm glad you are whatever the hell you are. For the rest, we go to polling:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/174110/americans-reaction-middle-east-situation-similar-past.aspx

[Dicer]

Maybe this article will help inform your opinions for the better peterbound

http://peter-beinart.com/israel/haaretz-what-american-jews-havent-been-told-about-gaza/

[The Marquis de Leech]

Well, that sounds realistic. I wonder if mainland Europe populations have far more conflicted views on the same topic.

Not sure about continental Europe, but I think we've inherited the BBC's old "we like to think we're neutral" approach. Basically, the narrative is that the place was utterly screwed up by Rabin's assassination back in the 1990s, and that Israeli politics has been largely dominated by scary militarists since. We get far more images of wounded and bombed out Palestinians on TV than we get of wounded and bombed out Israelis (the Israelis are generally the ones holding guns or driving tanks), but the overriding sentiment is "what the hell can anyone do?"

[Lordsteve666]

The impression I've got here in the uk is that the government is pretty unwilling to outright condem what is going on and the only politicians who are doing so are those who either have no real power anyway or those who are trying to get media sound bites of them objecting to garner public support for their own personal reasons.

If a different party was in power they would still play the same cards despite objecting at the moment. There's too much lobbying from industry or foreign allies from them to risk taking too strong a view on the situation.

With regards to the population I think most sane people are pretty offended by Israel's actions and are being vocal about their opinions. But I don't think support is swinging towards the Palestinian leadership other than on the usual anti-war/human right camps. People are offended sure, but we've experienced terrorist acts from the same direction (ie Islamic extremists) so people know that there is a real threat out there.

I think we feel for the civilians getting shot to pieces but a lot of people think the real enemy here is Hamas and their ideals. Though I doubt anyone would freely admit to thinking that as the popular thing here these days is to jump on any thing like this and act as if everyone is deeply offended. In reality most people would ignore it if it wasn't so "trendy" to be into the whole anti-war thing.

[Arkhangel]

Neither old nor Christian. Hell, I'm a fucking atheist, and I'm fully in support if Israel.

I think you might know people that are anti Israel, or run in those circles. None of the people I know are anything but pro Israel. Most if them are military or middle America though, not the pampered youth.

I think we feel for the civilians getting shot to pieces but a lot of people think the real enemy here is Hamas and their ideals. Though I doubt anyone would freely admit to thinking that as the popular thing here these days is to jump on any thing like this and act as if everyone is deeply offended. In reality most people would ignore it if it wasn't so "trendy" to be into the whole anti-war thing.

I think this just mostly goes to show that birds of a feather flock together. I honestly cannot think of a single person I know who is supportive of Israel's actions. Everyone acknowledges that Hamas's actions are also wrong, but that Israel's response is so astoundingly disproportionate it would be laughable if it weren't resulting in mass killings and war crimes. I have Palestinian friends who are currently in Gaza with their families, one of whom's house was bombed last week (his mother is blind, his father had a stroke earlier this year - can you imagine what it would be like trying to take care of your elderly parents under those circumstances?) and every day that goes by with no news from them is worrying.

So, take-away point is that anecdotal evidence sucks. I'm with Shryke:

I'm glad you are whatever the hell you are. For the rest, we go to polling:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/174110/americans-reaction-middle-east-situation-similar-past.aspx

[aceluby]

Looks like the Israeli people are really afraid of the Hamas rockets. So afraid, in fact, that many got within rocket range just so they could get a closer look at Israel killing Palestinian civilians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?smid=fb-share

Disgusting.

[Arakan]

Looks like the Israeli people are really afraid of the Hamas rockets. So afraid, in fact, that many got within rocket range just so they could get a closer look at Israel killing Palestinian civilians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?smid=fb-share

Disgusting.

This is fecking disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

[lumer]

I do not know whether to laugh or cry. Please tell me it is satire.

http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/1/un-condemns-israel-us-not-sharing-iron-dome-hamas/

"The United Nations slammed Israel for possibly committing war crimes in its fight against Hamas — and then backed that accusation by suggesting the Jewish nation ought to be sharing its Iron Dome defensive technology with the very terror group it’s fighting."

The UNHRC is beyond a joke.

[Shryke]

Cease-fire collapses almost instantly with 45 dead (40 Gazans, 5 Israelis)

http://time.com/3069755/gaza-israel-cease-fire-captured/

The Israeli military believes one of its soldiers was captured as a planned 72-hour cease-fire fell apart just hours into the deal, a spokesman said Friday. The lull in fighting collapsed in an early morning exchange of fire that left at least five Israeli soldiers and 40 Gaza residents dead.

Lt. Col Peter Lerner, IDF spokesman, identified the missing soldier as Second Lt. Hadar Goldin, 23. Lerner said the soldier, from Kfar Saba, was captured early on Friday as the Israeli military was “implementing” the cease-fire and that two IDF soldiers were killedduring the suspected capture.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-conflict-israeli-soldier-reportedly-captured-as-ceasefire-unravels-1.2724721

The Israeli military said that 90 minutes into the truce — as Palestinian families who had fled neighbourhoods that had been turned into battlefields began to trek home — militants attacked soldiers searching for infiltration tunnels in the southern Gaza Strip.

There was no immediate word from militant groups on whether any were holding the soldier, identified by the military as 23-year-old Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin.

​Sami Abu Zuhri, a spokesman for the dominant Hamas movement in Gaza, said Israel was trying to mislead the world and "cover up its Rafah massacre".

Palestinian officials said Israeli shelling killed at least 50 and wounded more than 220 Palestinians in and around Rafah, which lies close to Gaza's borders with Israel and Egypt.

​The UN’s Special Co-ordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, Robert Serry, said in a news release that Israel’s military informed him that its soldiers were attacked from a tunnel.

Two Israeli soldiers and a number of Palestinians were killed in the resulting clash, Serry said, but the UN could not independently confirm the reports

Of course the term "cease-fire" here was rather creatively employed:

The ceasefire, announced by the U.S. and the UN hours earlier, took effect at 8 a.m. local time Friday after heavy fighting that killed 17 Palestinians and five Israeli soldiers.

Under the ceasefire, Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza can continue to destroy tunnels along the heavily guarded frontier, but only those that are behind Israeli defensive lines and lead into Israel.

Israel and Hamas had otherwise agreed to halt all aggressive operations and conduct only defensive missions.

"I guess we will kinda, sorta stop shooting at each other. Maybe."