[TWOIAF Spoiler] Targaryen Lineage

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I did not read everything on this page but about Aegon "the Unworthy" and the Blackfyre rebellion:

Aegon married his sister Naerys, but didn't like her, still had 2 children Dareon "the Good" and Daenerys.

Aegon had a lot of mistresses and bastards, most notable: Daemon, Bittersteel, Bloodraven and Shiera.

Aegon's siblings, Naerys and Aemon "the Dragonknight" really liked each other. Aemon cried when Aegon and Naerys married and joined the Kingsguard.

After Aegon's death, the ones who supported and urged Daemon to claim the throne said that Daeron's father is not Aegon, but Aemon. Nobody knew for sure that it's true or not.

In the current story when Bran arrives to Bloodraven, he says something like: I had 2 brothers, one whom I looked up to and one whom I hated. And a sister whom I loved.

So I think Dareon was Aemon's and Naerys' bastard son, and Daemon was the heir to the throne when he was legitimized, coz Bloodraven loved Shiera, hated Bittersteel (Blackwood-Bracken fights) and looked up at Daemon coz he was a bastard but a proud and strong guy.

[Lord Varys]

LB,

it does not. But I'd say that it would be even more unlikely if both a Targaryen princess and a daughter of Dunk's from another marriage ended up marrying into House Tarth. The fact that the arms of Ser Duncan the Tall hang around in Lord Selwyn's armory is a pretty big hint that a legitimate child of his has married into House Tarth (Dunk's arms would be known all throughout the Realm in his day and age, and if the girl marrying into House Tarth was supposed to be of another houses - i.e. Dunk's secret bastard - he would most certainly not give her his arms). Now, it could be that George wants us simply to guess who Dunk's wife may turn out to be, or this is really a large twist he wants to keep a secret for storytelling purposes.

We can be reasonably sure that something very strange must happen if Dunk joins the KG while Aerion is still alive. He would have to protect him, too, after all. Not to mention that it would be somewhat awkward for him and Maekar to spend all that much time together, as this would remind everyone constantly of the death of Baelor Breakspear.

[LordBloodraven]

Hmm, it could be Lord Varys. But Dunk nabbing a princess would be really weird. Anyway, let's agree to disagree

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I did not read everything on this page but about Aegon "the Unworthy" and the Blackfyre rebellion:

Aegon married his sister Naerys, but didn't like her, still had 2 children Dareon "the Good" and Daenerys.

Aegon had a lot of mistresses and bastards, most notable: Daemon, Bittersteel, Bloodraven and Shiera.

Aegon's siblings, Naerys and Aemon "the Dragonknight" really liked each other. Aemon cried when Aegon and Naerys married and joined the Kingsguard.

After Aegon's death, the ones who supported and urged Daemon to claim the throne said that Daeron's father is not Aegon, but Aemon. Nobody knew for sure that it's true or not.

In the current story when Bran arrives to Bloodraven, he says something like: I had 2 brothers, one whom I looked up to and one whom I hated. And a sister whom I loved.

So I think Dareon was Aemon's and Naerys' bastard son, and Daemon was the heir to the throne when he was legitimized, coz Bloodraven loved Shiera, hated Bittersteel (Blackwood-Bracken fights) and looked up at Daemon coz he was a bastard but a proud and strong guy.

How would Daeron know whether he was a bastard or not? No one would be crazy enough to say anything about it, and only Naerys and Aemon would know..

[Magnolia]

He doesn't talk of his other (full) sisters either.
In the wiki his siblings are mentioned as "ghosts" that haunt him. I would say it just indicates, that the relationship to the others were "easier".

[El-Daddy]

Now the Blackwood line more than likely got an infusion of Targaryen blood through the union of Alys Blackwood(first introduced as Alsy Rivers the bastard pregnant by Aemon Targayen son of Alicent Hightower

You lost me here. How/where is Alys Rivers, Aemond "One-Eye" Targaryen's lover that he got pregnant, anything to do with the Blackwooda?

[OmnomnomPomelo]

How would Daeron know whether he was a bastard or not? No one would be crazy enough to say anything about it, and only Naerys and Aemon would know..

The Blackfyre party talked about this. I don't say Daeron should knew that he's a bastard or not. I'm just pointing out (since it's Targaryen lineage topic) to that probably the main branch, the one which supposed to follow each other on the throne, is the Blackfyres throught Daemon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Blackfyre party talked about this. I don't say Daeron should knew that he's a bastard or not. I'm just pointing out (since it's Targaryen lineage topic) to that probably the main branch, the one which supposed to follow each other on the throne, is the Blackfyres throught Daemon.

So the argument here is that, because the men supporting the known bastard, who was acknowledged and legitimized, yet not included in the line of succession by the King, claim that the trueborn son is the actual bastard, and should thus not inherit, that this makes Daeron I a bastard?

What else were the Blackfyre supporters supposed to say? "Well, Daeron is actually truly Aegons, but we don't want him on the throne.. we want Daemon?" No, that wasn't going to work.

Take a look at the life of Aegon IV. Aegon seems to have liked power. First, over his sister-wife, who asked to be released from her marital duties when she had birthed Aegon an heir and it was clearly stated that another pregnancy and birth would kill her. Aegon refused her. He confirmed that he never loved her, yet he refused to free her from him. This gave him power over her.

Daeron was the only person, together with his uncle Aemon, who dared to go against Aegon and all of Aegon's yes-men. So naturally, Aegon would eventually seek to find a way to try and get them "down" as well.. And he did, by spreading rumours about Daeron not being his, but Aemons..

Yet during all that time, Aegon didn't disinherit Daeron (which he could do on whatever ground he wanted), nor proclaimed him a bastard, nor included Daemon in the line of succession (which could have been done after the recognition of Daemon as his son.. a legitimization was the next step, yet Aegon waited with that until he was dying. No inclusion into the line of succession ever followed).

The marriage between Aegon and Naerys would have been getting worse the further along they came. Naerys almost died, twice, and only the second time, did the birth actually yield a living child. Aemon was still alive back then, but did anyone ever claim that Naerys had gotten pregnant with Daenerys from Aemon, while her husband was entertaining his mistresses? No, no one ever did... Yet there would have been more reason to assume that Daenerys was falseborn, than Daeron. But, imo, they felt that that wouldn't go well with the love story they had made for Daemon (which we've now learned, was also extremely exaggerated), and thus, they focussed on Daeron only, as he was the one they needed to unthrone.

[HexMachina]

You lost me here. How/where is Alys Rivers, Aemond "One-Eye" Targaryen's lover that he got pregnant, anything to do with the Blackwooda?

Yeah, this jumped out at me too. "Black Aly Blackwood" would not.be called Alys Rivers, she would be Alys Blackwood. And it would not make sense for her to fight against Aegon II if she was the father of Aemond's bastard - nor.do I think Cregan, who we are told was determined to punish the Greens, would marry someone who had been the paramour of a green. Especially since he would be 'taking another man's leavings'. There is nothing to indicate the two are one and the same

ETA: I also agree with Rhaenys on the Blackfyre thing. Nothing really indicates Daeron was a bastard. If Aegon truly believed he was not his son, he would have acted, likely killing Daeron, Naerys and Aemon - we are talking about the man who was fiercely possessive of even is mistresses. Recall that he had his.KG tortured and sent to the Wall for sleeping with one.

[The hairy bear]

Ran didn't say, but I'm guessing that she would then be a daughter of Robin Penrose, himself the son of Elaena Targaryen.

Elaena married Ronnel Penrose during the reign of Daeron II, thus in 184AC the earliest. Since Daeron II saw to it that Daemon Blackfyre got married after the death of their father, and Daemon had his twins that same year (184AC), it seems that Aegon's death took place early in the year. If Daemon can marry and have children before 184AC has come to a close, so can Elaena, meaning that Robin, the eldest of her four Penrose children (the other three were girls, Laena, Jocelyn and Joy), would be born in 184AC the earliest.

It sounds like Aelinor and Aerys were already married in 209AC, so there are 25 years in between the earliest moment of Robin's birth, and the moment where Aelinor should have been old enough to marry (12? 13?). If both Robin and Aelinor married young, this would work..

If not, then I guess she descents from one of Elaena's daughters, though she would only be called Penrose in such a situation if Robin died very young, and the house survived by having a ruling lady (one of Elaena's daughters in that case).

From TSS, in 211: "He will not even bestir himself to sire an heir. Queen Aelinor prays daily at the Great Sept, beseeching the Mother Above to bless her with a child, yet she remains a maid."

I don't think Aelinor being the daughter of Robin (or any descendant of Elaena) can work timewise. As you say, Eleana married Ronnel Penrose at 184 at the earliest. If we assume that no one can have offspring before being 14, then a potential granddaughter of Elaena would be born year 298 at the earliest, and be 13 or less at 211. I don't think the previous quote would make sense with Aelinor being a 13 year old (and that's stretching the timline at maximum).

So we should conclude that Elaena arranged the wedding of his husband's niece, or perhaps his daughter of a previous marriage. But then one wonders how she could be confused with Aerys' sister. In fact, one thing that in retrospective feels very weird about TSS is Egg's casual assumption that he'll marry to a sister, and Dunk's assertion that that's the usual thing to do. Now, looking at the Targaryen's of the generation, the fact is that Daeron I (Martell), his four sons (Dondarrion, Penrose, Arryn and Dayne), and the only grandson that was married at the time (a Tyroshi) were all married outside the family.

P.S.: Sorry for the necromantic quote. I came late to this thread.

P.P.S.: Another interesting question would be Ronnel's relationship with the youngest son of Lady Penrose that Fireball defeated and pardoned in 196 (THK). That complicates matters a lot. Who is this Lady Penrose? It can't be Elaena, for serveral reasons. Perhaps Ronnel was from a collateral branch of the family and he was called "Lord" as a deference (like Varys)? But then, how could he ever enter the council and marry a targaryen princess?

[Annara Snow]

apparently what Olenna said wasn't quite true. It was Daeron who refused to marry her, not the other way around. I always suspected that Olenna was hiding facts from her betrothal to the prince.

Not necessarily.

She may have found out that Daeron was into men and said: "Hm, I don't think this is going to work" and Daeron agreed to broke up the betrothal.

In any case, he was the only one who would have the power to break their betrothal, not Olenna. And in the eyes of the public, and especially official history written by a maester, he would have remained the one who broke it up, even if he was prompted by her.

[Lord Varys]

THB,

I've exactly the same problems with the 'Aelinor was Aerys' I cousin' thing. In my opinion, Aelinor should have been one of Elaena's daughters, that really could settle the thing. Only a daughter or granddaughter of Elaena's could be a cousin of Aerys I, though, since all the other Penrose relations of Elaena's husband would not be related to Aerys I at all.

And as you have pointed out - the quote from TSS makes all but impossible that Aelinor was recently married to Aerys I, or that she was a child bride.

Aerys I may be the last son of Daeron II to get married, but this marriage should have occurred some years prior to his ascension, as the account on his reign suggests that his Small Council asked him to take another wife rather early in his reign. That would, most likely, not have been the case if Aelinor had been a child bride recently wed to the king as people may have thought that the king wanted to wait before her deflowered the girl or something like that. Even more importantly, Aelinor herself would never have been a desperate as asking the gods to grant her a child if she had not yet been married to Aerys for quite some time.

The Lady Penrose thing from the First Blackfyre Rebellion is a nearly unresolvable problem, too. Elaena's section in the book seems to suggest that Ronnel was the Lord Penrose - he is called 'Lord' therein, and the idea that Daeron II made some second son of House Penrose who was not exactly good with numbers his Master of Coin, and married him to a Targaryen princess is, frankly, not something this smart king would do.

My suggestion would be:

Change the children of Ronnel and Elaena to three elder sons and one daughter, Aelinor, who married Aerys I. The three elder sons could then be old enough to be killed off by Fireball in 196 - if twins were among them, and we make this story about squires trying to win glory etc. Fireball sparing the youngest son could then be a nod to Princess Elaena, which could be sort of nice touch.

[Mithras]

Best way to solve the problem would be to wed Elaena to Damon Lannister, as it should have been. My original suggestion was that since Elaena was Daemon's beloved auntie, Fireball spared Damon Lannister to not make Elaena a widow.

[HexMachina]

Best way to solve the problem would be to wed Elaena to Damon Lannister, as it should have been.

Well, maybe if you were writing your own books that would matter.

But it doesn't, since they are George's books.

[Ran]

As I said in the other thread, there's no issue. Aelinor is not a descendant of Elaena. She is a cousin by another route.

[Veltigar]

As I said in the other thread, there's no issue. Aelinor is not a descendant of Elaena. She is a cousin by another route.

A partly Targaryen cousin or a cousin through the Martell side of the family?

[Lord Varys]

My new explanation would be to go for a union between a Penrose and a legitimized bastard girl of Aegon the Unworthy, more precisely either Mya or Gwenys Rivers, the elder sisters of Bloodraven.

A Penrose-Martell match is also a possibility, although it would have to occur after 184 AC as Aegon IV did try to turn the Marcher Lords against the Dornishmen, and most likely would not give his consent to such a match (nor does it seem likely that Maron would want to marry another sisters into the Targaryen Realm prior to the union between KL and Sunspear).

Yet another possibility would be that Daena the Defiant was finally married to somebody after she got out of the Maidenvault. We know that she died young, but this does not mean that she did not marry before that happened.

[HexMachina]

There are plenty of branches of the Targaryen tree that lead to dead ends which are not elaborated and could explain this "cousin" thing. We don't know (unless I missed something) what degree of cousin she was to Aerys I, and just a quick glance at the Tree shows dead ends with Rhaena (six females children by her Hightower husband) and Baela (1[well, it actually only says issue...so I guess there may be multiple children] non-identified child). I don't think there is any shortage of options available to explain the familial link to House Penrose

[the conquering bastard 25]

No No No, it did not Aemma Targaryen wed Viserys I, whom was the parents of Rheanyra Targaryen! That's for starters, she went on the have 5 sons and one daughter. The first three sons were killed and died in the War of the dragons. The other 2 sons would go on the reign as Aegon III and Viserys II. Both had sons that sat the throne. Daeron I and Baelor I were both Rheanyra's grandsons by Aegon III dragonbane. Aegon IV and his son Daeron II both ruled as the grandsons of Viserys II. Still with me? The Stark/Arryn bloodline has not died out. As Daeron II wed the Martell, his sons Maeker and Aenys II both ruled and Meaker remember him was the father of Aegon V and we know what happened after that right. The Targs have a drop of wolf blood just like the Starks have a drop of dragon blood.

The world book said that he was pushed through the moon door nothing about his sons.

Quote: Sadly, Lord Ronnel later died a violent death at the hands of his brother Jonon, Kinslayer, but the arryn line continued throught a kinsman and has remained deeply involved in may of the great matters of the seven kingdoms."

Says nothing about any sons being pushed through the moon door.

Please point me to where it says her line. Because Rodrick Arryn definitely wed Daella Targaryen. So I'd like to see a quote because the family tree and passage from the world book definitely shows and states that it was the father not the sons that died. There was a queen a long time ago that saw her entire line, husband, father,brothers and sons died and she didn't cry and the gods said that until her tears reached the valley floor below the Eryie she would know no peace and her waterfall the spray from the water turns to mist by the time it reaches the bottom floor maybe that's what your thinking about.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

No No No, it did not Aemma Targaryen wed Viserys I, whom was the parents of Rheanyra Targaryen! That's for starters, she went on the have 5 sons and one daughter. The first three sons were killed and died in the War of the dragons. The other 2 sons would go on the reign as Aegon III and Viserys II. Both had sons that sat the throne. Daeron I and Baelor I were both Rheanyra's grandsons by Aegon III dragonbane. Aegon IV and his son Daeron II both ruled as the grandsons of Viserys II. Still with me? The Stark/Arryn bloodline has not died out. As Daeron II wed the Martell, his sons Maeker and Aenys II both ruled and Meaker remember him was the father of Aegon V and we know what happened after that right. The Targs have a drop of wolf blood just like the Starks have a drop of dragon blood.

No one was disputing that there is still Arryn blood in the Targaryens. What is being disputed is that the Arryns still have Targ blood.

The world book said that he was pushed through the moon door nothing about his sons.

Quote: Sadly, Lord Ronnel later died a violent death at the hands of his brother Jonon, Kinslayer, but the arryn line continued throught a kinsman and has remained deeply involved in may of the great matters of the seven kingdoms."

Says nothing about any sons being pushed through the moon door.

The fact that the line continued through a "kinsman" rather than, say, a son indicates that Ronnel didn't have any surviving children (also there was a reading of an excerpt from Fire and Blood which indicated that a cousin became the next Lord of the Eyrie, although that information is still subject to change)

Please point me to where it says her line. Because Rodrick Arryn definitely wed Daella Targaryen. So I'd like to see a quote because the family tree and passage from the world book definitely shows and states that it was the father not the sons that died. There was a queen a long time ago that saw her entire line, husband, father,brothers and sons died and she didn't cry and the gods said that until her tears reached the valley floor below the Eryie she would know no peace and her waterfall the spray from the water turns to mist by the time it reaches the bottom floor maybe that's what your thinking about.

Rodrik Arryn wed Daella, yes, but there is no indication that Daella had any children other than Aemma. There is just no indication that modern Arryns possess any Targaryen or Stark blood. Also why would Rodrik Arryn have to be a son of Ronnel? That there's Arryns after Ronnel doesn't mean that any sons of Ronnel lived. In fact Rodrik's marriage happened in 80 AC. Ronnel had been killed around 40 years beforehand, when Aenys was still king

In summation, it is implied that the Arryn line was continued by a more distant relation of Ronnel's than a child of his (due to his line being continued by a "kinsman". If it had been a son continuing the line, that term would likely not be used). That indicates that the later Arryn's likely have no descent from Ronnel or Torrhen Stark's daughter. Furthermore, it seems to be implied that Aemma was the only child from Daella's marriage to Rodrik Arryn. That would indicate that later Arryn's do not possess Targaryen blood, at least not through Daella.

Maybe later Arryns did end up with Targ or Stark descent, through other lines, but there is no proof of this