R+L=J v.118

[IceFire125]

King's are a rare sight in the north. We know this and Ned says so in the quote you have provided upthread.

To go along with this passage equating Jon as king, we can look to the setting. So if you want to push it as symbolism or foreshadowing the obvious and more accurate outcome would be Jon as King of Winter.

Or... snow mentioned in the north is common because snow is common in the north and Robert is speaking of commoners (Ned's people.) So all common northerners are bastards. ;)

I'm glad you're starting to entertain such thoughts in your mind, good job!

Now, extend that thought of yours of Jon as King of Winter, definitely fit with clues and foreshadowing of him having royalty blood... but there's this also...

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark …

So, ask the questions, why if the foreshadowing of Jon being King of Winter via Robb's legitimizing would GRRM placed a dream (usually meant as something to happen in the future) with Jon, and have the Stark kings saying something so outrageously against it?

Unless, there's another underlying message GRRM is saying with Jon being a true heir of, and if it's not the North, there's enough clues to hint that Jon is a trueborn of Targaryen blood, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. If that is it, then the dream in the crypts makes a lot more sense. Of course he is not a Stark, he's a Targaryen, and he doesn't belong there, but he needs to go there. Once Jon is inside Ghost, he will be forced to continue the dream, the fear will not wake him up, until he is ready to be in 'man' after being in 'wolf'.

[J. Stargaryen]

4. This is a silly argument at best. There's nothing within the text that says Rhaegar laid the crown on Lyanna's lap using his lance

Tell me where there's any lances involved.

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

- TWoIaF, pg. 126

[ToTheWolves]

- TWoIaF, pg. 126

Thank you for that.

[markg171]

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

1. Fever plus blood in women who are "in a bed of blood" (which means childbirth) = puerperal fever. Look it up.

4. Read the world book.

1. How does that change anything that I said? You guys are stuck up on bed of blood having to mean childbirth, but that does not change the fact that fevers in the books are used for wounded people. Ned with his broken leg. Robert with his sliced open gut. Jaime with his stump. Gregor after his duel with Oberyn. Tyrion after the Blackwater. You can't get caught up in saying one thing only means one thing, while ignoring that it flies in the face of one thing only being used in the novels for something else. If we're going to focus on something only being one thing, then she couldn't have had puerperal fever. Unless you're willing to admit that things dpn't always only mean one thing in the books. But then that flies completely in the face of your argument.

4. You guys throw out things in the world book left and right when it doesn't suit R+L=J. You can't just pick and choose which things from it to accept. Either accept everything in it as true, or don't accept any of it. None of this back and forth as it serves your purpose. Yandel was not at Harrenhal so I fail to see how you're going to take his word for something he didn't witness, when you won't take his word for things he didn't witness if it goes against your opinions.

[MtnLion]

1. Fever's come from many things. Stating it must come from one single thing is nonsense. When fever's are used in the novels, they're used to indicate wounds that have gone bad. Not pregnancies.

So if we're going to use what GRRM has used in the past as any indication, as you seem to be doing, the logical explanation is that Lyanna dies from a wound that has gone bad. Not a pregnancy

Fever is caused by the body fighting infection. Infection can be caused by a wound, or it can be brought into the body through the skin, or more commonly the mucous membranes. Delivering a baby stretches the skin to an extent that tearing is common, and lack of sterile techniques can cause an infection, which is referred to as puerperal fever. (You really should look up the things that people refer you to, to understand the information that is being offered.) So, you could say that delivering a baby could cause a wound that might get infected, which would bring on a fever, and it is called child bed fever. ;)

ETA: GRRM has written about one earlier case of puerperal fever, that resulted in death three days after delivery.

[BearQueen87]

1. How does that change anything that I said? You guys are stuck up on bed of blood having to mean childbirth, but that does not change the fact that fevers in the books are used for wounded people. Ned with his broken leg. Robert with his sliced open gut. Jaime with his stump. Gregor after his duel with Oberyn. Tyrion after the Blackwater. You can't get caught up in saying one thing only means one thing, while ignoring that it flies in the face of one thing only being used in the novels for something else. If we're going to focus on something only being one thing, then she couldn't have had puerperal fever. Unless you're willing to admit that things dpn't always only mean one thing in the books. But then that flies completely in the face of your argument.

4. You guys throw out things in the world book left and right when it doesn't suit R+L=J. You can't just pick and choose which things from it to accept. Either accept everything in it as true, or don't accept any of it. None of this back and forth as it serves your purpose. Yandel was not at Harrenhal so I fail to see how you're going to take his word for something he didn't witness, when you won't take his word for things he didn't witness if it goes against your opinions.

1. But none of them are in a bed of blood (also, not females which means the situation changes...) But you have Lyanna, in a bed of blood, used by others to refer to childbirth, with a fever. That indicates Puerperal Fever which is ONLY found in women who have just given birth. Also, a fever is a body fighting an infection...not a wound.

2. Actually, no we don't throw out things left and right. And um, thousands were at HH. THOUSANDS. You mean to tell me that Yandel isn't reporting eye witness accounts that thousands saw, but we should accept that Aerys made Viserys his heir when there was no one, who was around at the time and still is today, has ever reported such? Really? Also, the artwork of the World book shows Rhaegar doing just what we are descrbing. The artwork of the WB is in-universe. It's what people either believed happened in the way long ago (like the construction of the wall) or it is what actually is--like the pictures of the keeps and events that people were alive for (and still are today) and are reporting on.

And I'm telling you: huge 2 page picture of R placing that crown in Lyanna's lap with a lance.

ETA and about the bed of blood...you have mothers in ASOIAF who refer to giving birth as bringing forth their child in blood and pain. So that's more hint that bed of blood, when used for a woman, is the childbirthing bed

[MtnLion]

You guys are stuck up on bed of blood having to mean childbirth,

But, you see in every case that bloody bed or bed of blood is used in the books it refers to childbirth.

[J. Stargaryen]

Thank you for that.

You're welcome. :)

1. But none of them are in a bed of blood (also, not females which means the situation changes...) But you have Lyanna, in a bed of blood, used by others to refer to childbirth, with a fever. That indicates Puerperal Fever which is ONLY found in women who have just given birth. Also, a fever is a body fighting an infection...not a wound.

2. Actually, no we don't throw out things left and right. And um, thousands were at HH. THOUSANDS. You mean to tell me that Yandel isn't reporting eye witness accounts that thousands saw, but we should accept that Aerys made Viserys his heir when there was no one, who was around at the time and still is today, has ever reported such? Really? Also, the artwork of the World book shows Rhaegar doing just what we are descrbing. The artwork of the WB is in-universe. It's what people either believed happened in the way long ago (like the construction of the wall) or it is what actually is--like the pictures of the keeps and events that people were alive for (and still are today) and are reporting on.

And I'm telling you: huge 2 page picture of R placing that crown in Lyanna's lap with a lance.

ETA and about the bed of blood...you have mothers in ASOIAF who refer to giving birth as bringing forth their child in blood and pain. So that's more hint that bed of blood, when used for a woman, is the childbirthing bed

At this point, I'm not sure it's going to matter. I basically agree with what Avalatis stated earlier. There's no point in arguing with this person.

[Ser Leftwich]

4. You guys throw out things in the world book left and right when it doesn't suit R+L=J. You can't just pick and choose which things from it to accept. Either accept everything in it as true, or don't accept any of it. None of this back and forth as it serves your purpose. Yandel was not at Harrenhal so I fail to see how you're going to take his word for something he didn't witness, when you won't take his word for things he didn't witness if it goes against your opinions.

Why would Yandel put in such a wildly specific detail that was made up? One that Robert himself and countless members of the Westerosi nobility and thousands of peasants/etc saw with their own eyes. And was talked about for years and pretty much caused a war.

The case of Viserys being the heir could be either fact or speculation by Yandel, both work. Why would Yandel speculate or make up the "lance delivery"? There is not much, or any I can think of, reason he would want to take such poetic license for that specific moment.

(Everyone is welcome to use "lance delivery" for whatever fun they so choose. :blushing: )

[sj4iy]

At this point, I'm not sure it's going to matter. I basically agree with what Avalatis stated earlier. There's no point in arguing with this person.

Ding ding ding!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Why would Yandel put in such a wildly specific detail that was made up? One that Robert himself and countless members of the Westerosi nobility and thousands of peasants/etc saw with their own eyes. And was talked about for years and pretty much caused a war.

The case of Viserys being the heir could be either fact or speculation by Yandel, both work. Why would Yandel speculate or make up the "lance delivery"? There is not much, or any I can think of, reason he would want to take such poetic license for that specific moment.

(Everyone is welcome to use "lance delivery" for whatever fun they so choose. :blushing: )

:agree: Just because it is not clear whether certain things in WOIAF are accurate does not mean we just throw up our hands and say we cannot tell what is likely to be true and what might be speculation or spin. Information based on something that happened in public is likely to be basically correct. Things that happened in private--less clear. So the crowning that was seen at all people at the tourney--pretty reliable. A "will" designating someone as the heir to the throne--less clear, especially when the statement was made in such an offhand way (rather than an explicit statement that Aerys named Viserys as the heir over Aegon--which if it had been stated explicitly I likely would have accepted more or less as fact). So it also is the manner in which the information is presented that can be important. As always, context matters.

[Greymoon]

1. Fever's come from many things. Stating it must come from one single thing is nonsense. When fever's are used in the novels, they're used to indicate wounds that have gone bad. Not pregnancies.

So if we're going to use what GRRM has used in the past as any indication, as you seem to be doing, the logical explanation is that Lyanna dies from a wound that has gone bad. Not a pregnancy

2. Wrong. There's nothing to indicate that Rhaegar ever had sex with Lyanna. The only evidence for Rhaegar having sex with anyone, is Elia. Ned even says he didn't think that Rhaegar was the kind of guy who went to brothels, i.e he didn't sleep around. He therefore doesn't think of Rhaegar as the kind of guy who slept with his sister, as he was married to Elia. Robert is the one who says that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, as that's the assumption one would make when someone goes and kidnaps your bride. There's nothing other than this to say they ever did though.

3. It's words and words are wind. GRRM has drilled that into our skulls that words mean nothing. I keep asking for instances where these words have been used, and at best we get like 3 examples, and that's including Lyanna which is an assumption not a fact. There are also pregnancies within the novels without a bed of blood description, and there are instances where beds are bloody from things other than pregnancies. So a bed that's bloody can mean multiple things and pregnancies don't have to be bloody. See #1 for the rest of your question. If Lyanna was pregnant, why would Ned omit that part? You can't just pick and chose which things you can say should have been mentioned, without saying others could have been as well.

It's also noticeable when someone has given birth. Someone or a group of someones prepared Lyanna's body and her body would have told them that she'd given birth. The assumption of R+L=J requires a massive cover up, far bigger than simply Ned being the only one lying. You can't possibly account for Ned, Howland, the servants at the TOJ, everyone who was there prior to their departure before Ned gets there, everyone who was with Rhaegar when he was with Lyanna, whoever prepared Lyanna's body, and the entire Dayne household. There's no possible way that everyone has covered up the fact that Lyanna had been pregnant.

4. This is a silly argument at best. There's nothing within the text that says Rhaegar laid the crown on Lyanna's lap using his lance

Tell me where there's any lances involved.

1) do point out where I've claimed fever can only be a symptom of pregnancy? Now you are purposely misreading. I said fever is a symptom of your body fighting an infection. The likely explanation, in our context, is puerperal infection.

2) Robert claims Lyanna was raped. You give Ned's thoughts on the matter their due credit, though you push it, slightly too far. There's a middle ground between whoring, and having being entirely faithful to one's wife. So, you dismiss Robert's thoughts? And the official version of events? you dismiss Baristan's version of it, too? Do you dismiss the reported kidnap that placed Rhaegar and Lyanna in close proximity? do you dismiss Rhaegar 'kept' her in the ToJ, at some point? Speak about coherence.

3) I won't reiterated the argument about the bed of blood, it's rather tiresome. However, I will point out that the Silent Sisters who are the only order in Westeros to attend to the dead, exclusively, are silent. Their order is forbidden to speak. Maesters may attend to the dead occasionally, but it's not actually their job.

And, when a body has to be transported across the kingdom, it is boiled so only the bones remains. As far as I'm aware, Ned didn't travel with Lyanna's rotting corpse swung over the back of his horse. He brought the bones back north. There's no reason for anyone besides Ned and the Silent Sisters to actually look at Lyanna's corpse, or her bones. And even if Robert was allowed to look, he certainly wouldn't know what conclusion to draw from a pelvic fracture.

4) He did. As BearQueen said, read the world book.

I'm still waiting for you to come up with a better explanation for Lyanna's death.

[Ser Creighton]

Now stop it, Martin does not use literary devices like subtext, allusions, metaphors etc...

I mean if he did I might look at something like this and get confused.

Garlan Tyrell, and in no way can he be associated with a clue about Jon. Ok sure he is both a rose and the use of Garlan and a Second son as well, which Jon would be if he was the so called child of R+L. But that is so thin and ok Loras did say this about him:

“He is a great knight,” Ser Loras replied. “A better sword than me, in truth, though I’m the better lance.”

Well yeah it's identical to what Jon had to say about him and Robb. But not a clue, just another random series of things not associated with Jon or R+L=J. Like Dany seeing a blue rose at the wall, not a clue, not a clue at all.

“A blue flower grew “from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.… mother of dragons, bride of fire …”

Ok it does not say rose, it says flower, so no association, and it's probably a random wall of ice, that is well known for growing these so called bluish flowers. I mean really is it even a flower? She is just confuse its probably like a bottle or maybe the light reflectng off the wall creating this flower like illusion. That's probably it.

[markg171]

Why would Yandel put in such a wildly specific detail that was made up? One that Robert himself and countless members of the Westerosi nobility and thousands of peasants/etc saw with their own eyes. And was talked about for years and pretty much caused a war.

The case of Viserys being the heir could be either fact or speculation by Yandel, both work. Why would Yandel speculate or make up the "lance delivery"? There is not much, or any I can think of, reason he would want to take such poetic license for that specific moment.

(Everyone is welcome to use "lance delivery" for whatever fun they so choose. :blushing: )

No one in the novels mentions it, despite them being there. So why believe Yandel here?

[Ser Leftwich]

No one in the novels mentions it, despite them being there. So why believe Yandel here?

The lance does not matter. Two source confirmation, like journalism. Yandel and Ned.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. - AGoT p. 631

Rhaegar, Lyanna's lap, and queen of beauty's laurel are common between the two accounts.

ETA: Three sources. Barristan.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. - ADwD p. 878

[MtnLion]

No one in the novels mentions it, despite them being there. So why believe Yandel here?

Because it is illustrated, not just described? :D

[markg171]

The lance does not matter. Two source confirmation, like journalism. Yandel and Ned.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. - AGoT p. 631

Rhaegar, Lyanna's lap, and queen of beauty's laurel are common between the two accounts.

ETA: Three sources. Barristan.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. - ADwD p. 878

Except Yandel was not there. He's like 10 when the tourney happens, and he's at the Citadel. Our two sources are Ned and Cersei who talk about Rhaegar choosing Lyanna and the smiles dying and neither mentions a lance.

No one's saying Rhaegar didn't chose Lyanna. What is being disputed is that he used his lance to give her the crown, which must indicate phallic imagery. Even if he did use his lance like Yandel claims, how does that indicate fertility like you guys suggest? If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, he's born 2 years after this event.

[MtnLion]

Same here, I'm a fan for Val to be with Jon in the end, if not, a significant portion later in the series (if she survives), but if we're supposed to give hints and clues equal weight, then from this Dany chapter, I think GRRM wants us to keep our minds open for Dany to be in an intimate involvement with Jon. Per HotU vision, for love to betray her, she first need to love... him.

I do like Val, too. A triumvirate?

As far as the betrayal for love, I believe that it will be Barristan when he finds Ashara. But, purely speculation.

[sj4iy]

So, any thoughts as to what we might see in regards to this theory next season of the show?

(also, just saw the episode 2 preview of the new Telltale game)

(Jon Snow shows up!)

(swoon)

[MtnLion]

Except Yandel was not there. He's like 10 when the tourney happens, and he's at the Citadel. Our two sources are Ned and Cersei who talk about Rhaegar choosing Lyanna and the smiles dying and neither mentions a lance.

No one's saying Rhaegar didn't chose Lyanna. What is being disputed is that he used his lance to give her the crown, which must indicate phallic imagery. Even if he did use his lance like Yandel claims, how does that indicate fertility like you guys suggest? If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, he's born 2 years after this event.

Wowsa, just wowsa! Usually detractors don't have a firm grasp on the timeline. Yes, Jon is born 24 (give or take three) months after Harrenhal. What happens in the meantime? Aegon is born, and Elia's inability to sustain another pregnancy disappoints Rhaegar. Rhaegar was in correspondence with Aemon at this point, and it seems likely to me that he went to the road to travel to the Wall and discuss matters face to face with Aemon. (I also believe that it is likely that during his visits to Summerhall Rhaegar would entertain the Ghost of High Heart with his songs, and learn of what the future held from her.) It seems likely that it was during his trip north that he encountered Lyanna and between them they struck up the relationship that ended at the tower of joy.

Now, the lance is symbolic. The circlet is also symbolic. Laying the circlet in Lyanna's lap via the lance is extraordinarily symbolic, and it is something that a few of us predicted more than a year ago. One may ignore the symbolism, and lose the flavor of GRRM's writing and humor, if one wishes to ignore the depth of the story and telling. It was one of the first lessons I received in school, to look at symbolism as the author telling us something in an oblique manner.