R+L=J v.118

[sj4iy]

I'm not allowed to use codes anymore, remember? Sniffle!

Really? Wow, that sucks.

[Alia of the knife]

:bang: :lol: :bawl: :shocked: :tantrum: :wacko: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[BearQueen87]

Alia is feeling ALL THE THINGS

[markg171]

Because Rhaegar can only have sex with Lyanna directly after giving her the crown? There is no way that they had sex after he "kidnapped" her and held for a year? They...what? Played Gin Rummy with the two KG?

It's called foreshadowing. Look it up

You do know that Rhaegar crowned her, then fucked his wife for the next year right? So if he had any intention of getting a baby with Lyanna, it has to come after Harrenhal and for that baby to be Jon, it has to be 2 years after Harrenhal. The timeline does not fit, that Rhaegar used his lance to put blue roses in Lyanna's lap to signify that he was going to put a baby in her belly.

At least the theory that Rhaegar crowned her as a nod to the Knight of the Laughing Tree makes sense. This does not.

[BearQueen87]

You do know that Rhaegar crowned her, then fucked his wife for the next year right? So if he had any intention of getting a baby with Lyanna, it has to come after Harrenhal and for that baby to be Jon, it has to be 2 years after Harrenhal. The timeline does not fit, that Rhaegar used his lance to put blue roses in Lyanna's lap to signify that he was going to put a baby in her belly.

At least the theory that Rhaegar crowned her as a nod to the Knight of the Laughing Tree makes sense. This does not.

What makes you think that R instantly wanted to make a baby with L the second he met her?

And for the record, I'm one of the people who do think he crowned her as a nod to her being KotLT. The baby and running off together came later. And...you still haven't addressed the idea of foreshadowing--which does not come from the character in universe, but from GRRM. R did not think "yes, I shall place this crown of blue roses in your lap with my lance and then later..2 years from now..this moment will be much more significant when I place another lance in your lap..."

[J. Stargaryen]

What makes you think that R instantly wanted to make a baby with L the second he met her?

And for the record, I'm one of the people who do think he crowned her as a nod to her being KotLT. The baby and running off together came later. And...you still haven't addressed the idea of foreshadowing--which does not come from the character in universe, but from GRRM. R did not think "yes, I shall place this crown of blue roses in your lap with my lance and then later..2 years from now..this moment will be much more significant when I place another lance in your lap..."

This gets me every time. Like really? If you think that's an argument, you need to write less and read more, because you don't understand how symbolism works.

[Ser Creighton]

Really? Wow, that sucks.

It's a joke about a theory from while back, inside joke.

[BearQueen87]

It's a joke about a theory from while back, inside joke.

A rather corny one? ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Alia is feeling ALL THE THINGS

A woman is beginning to wonder if some of the objections raised here are real, or under a new account, hence the madness is starting to set in.

You guys have stamina, I'll say that.

[sj4iy]

It's a joke about a theory from while back, inside joke.

Hard to tell without a sarcasm font ;)

[Ser Creighton]

Hard to tell without a sarcasm font ;)

I don't know, I didn't seem to miss it your post.

ETA: Almost forgot, while the flashback will probably not be R+L=J related, we have Aemon. He is suppose to both leave and die, though I don't know if he will leave. However he can talk about Rhaegar and the Prince and all that.

[Kingmonkey]

You do know that Rhaegar crowned her, then fucked his wife for the next year right? So if he had any intention of getting a baby with Lyanna, it has to come after Harrenhal and for that baby to be Jon, it has to be 2 years after Harrenhal. The timeline does not fit, that Rhaegar used his lance to put blue roses in Lyanna's lap to signify that he was going to put a baby in her belly.

You know that throat-slitting gesture that's used to indicate someone is going to die in the future? That's a thing about gestures. Sometimes they can be used to indicate things that are going to happen in the future. They're clever that way.

They can also be used symbolically. They're clever that way, too. For example, that throat slitting gesture can be used to indicate a non-literal death. Like, for example, when a conversation is going nowhere and needs to die.

[BearQueen87]

I don't know, I didn't seem to miss it your post.

ETA: Almost forgot, while the flashback will probably not be R+L=J related, we have Aemon. He is suppose to both leave and die, though I don't know if he will leave. However he can talk about Rhaegar and the Prince and all that.

I really hope Aemon talks about Rhaegar. I feel like he's (Rhaegar) not getting enough attention on the show.

[sj4iy]

I don't know, I didn't seem to miss it your post.

ETA: Almost forgot, while the flashback will probably not be R+L=J related, we have Aemon. He is suppose to both leave and die, though I don't know if he will leave. However he can talk about Rhaegar and the Prince and all that.

That's a good idea. He could fill in some backstory without flashbacks.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest this: there is no proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar ever had sex.

ETA: There are no dots to connect.

You're right. No proof at all.

Actually, the comic sans hurts your case. Otherwise, I'd say you were making progress! ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

You know that throat-slitting gesture that's used to indicate someone is going to die in the future? That's a thing about gestures. Sometimes they can be used to indicate things that are going to happen in the future. They're clever that way.

They can also be used symbolically. They're clever that way, too. For example, that throat slitting gesture can be used to indicate a non-literal death. Like, for example, when a conversation is going nowhere and needs to die.

This is similar to how I've suggested the lance/crown scene should be read... As symbolism, perhaps it should be interpreted as resulting in a symbolic, or non-literal parental relationship between (1) Rhaegar and (2) Lyanna's future child. Rhaegar could be Jon's symbolic father, even though he's not Jon's actual father. What do y'all think?

[JonSnow4President]

This is similar to how I've suggested the lance/crown scene should be read... As symbolism, perhaps it should be interpreted as resulting in a symbolic, or non-literal parental relationship between (1) Rhaegar and (2) Lyanna's future child. Rhaegar could be Jon's symbolic father, even though he's not Jon's actual father. What do y'all think?

A "symbolic father" really doesn't work if you're dead and the child never sees you. Ned could be a "symbolic father" to Jon quite easily. Hell, so could Benjen, or some other male authority figure within Winterfell that Jon looked up to. But not Rhaegar. If he is not the actual father, that's it.You can't cram symbolic fatherhood there without the mentoring relationship

[Ser Creighton]

I really hope Aemon talks about Rhaegar. I feel like he's (Rhaegar) not getting enough attention on the show.

That's a good idea. He could fill in some backstory without flashbacks.

Well somebody has to at some point, it's not like the internet doesn't know. It's been in the news, for crying out loud it was on honest trailers, 16 million people watched that. They drop little hints and stuff, there are just certain plot lines they have to kind of start addressing. They do weird things though, they are going to Dorne and no Arianne, how much fucking sense does that make? What Next they going to give us the FM in Braavos without Arya? The Watch itself has gotten short changed for 4 seasons. Well KL is screwed, no Tyrion, no Joff, no Tywin, No Varys, no Littlefinger, no Sansa, and soon no Jaime and Bronn. Cat has not returned so what are Brie and Pod going to do? Oh wait Jaime goes to Dorne as well right? Most of the new cast is for Dorne, sooooo? This could be a really rough year. No Bran north of the wall this season. Dany Marries HIz... just vomited in my mouth a little.

Tyrion and Varys on walkabout.

Dorne with Jaime, lots of plotting but they really don't do anything. And what is Jaime going to do? Put his daughter on the throne, instead of his other son? Skipping that and it's just Doran talking.

Arya ninja training which we may not see much of.

Sansa but she does not have a lot in crows and zero in dance.

Lots of the Boltons and Theon

Naked Cersei and Robert Strong, that should be an interesting conversation

Cersei and Marg locked up.

You know with all the People that were in KL helping to make interesting, most of them are gone.

Varys will return in the end and kill at least one person

Was Alys cast? I don't think she was.

I am thinking it will be a lot of Dorne, but who knows.

Stannis captures Asha.

Jon has a new Red head in his life. She slept with Gendry right?

Episodes 4, 5, 6, 7, HH, not going to happen.

They got to throw something in there or this is going to be a bad season for 9 episodes.

[Ser Leftwich]

If you are wondering, let me sum up the last few hundred posts:

Reader A: Here are a series of interpretations that lead me to believe that R+L= J. Hmmm.

Reader B: I had similar interpretations, when I read that book, having read nothing online. I wonder if there are other readers and/or clues/foreshadowing.

Reader C: Fuck all of you, this is all crap that you are pulling out of thin air. Ned said Wylla was Jon's mother end of story.

Reader D: But symbolism!

Reader E: Symbolism can't mean that because I have an opinion! All opinions are valid!

Repeat ad nauseam.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'm glad you're starting to entertain such thoughts in your mind, good job!

Now, extend that thought of yours of Jon as King of Winter, definitely fit with clues and foreshadowing of him having royalty blood... but there's this also...

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. Father? he called. Bran? Rickon? No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. Uncle? he called. Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me. Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. Ygritte? he whispered. Forgive me. Please. But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark

So, ask the questions, why if the foreshadowing of Jon being King of Winter via Robb's legitimizing would GRRM placed a dream (usually meant as something to happen in the future) with Jon, and have the Stark kings saying something so outrageously against it?

Unless, there's another underlying message GRRM is saying with Jon being a true heir of, and if it's not the North, there's enough clues to hint that Jon is a trueborn of Targaryen blood, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. If that is it, then the dream in the crypts makes a lot more sense. Of course he is not a Stark, he's a Targaryen, and he doesn't belong there, but he needs to go there. Once Jon is inside Ghost, he will be forced to continue the dream, the fear will not wake him up, until he is ready to be in 'man' after being in 'wolf'.

..

Of course not a Stark in Jon's dreams means he's not a Stark... and he doesn't belong in the crypts because he is not dead. A Song of Ice and Fire is not a Jon Snow puzzle where every mention of snow or fire or king means we twist the cube to make King Jon Targaryen.

Why tear out single pages when you can throw away the book