R+L=J v.118

[J. Stargaryen]

markg171 has yet to admit to a mystery existing starting in the first book and will be revealed likely in book 6. I'm not sure why I see people arguing foreshadowing with this poster; when you don't even agree on the fact that there is a mystery to begin with.

I asked him to agree that there was a mystery and that the mystery was Jon's mother. If he doesn't agree that Jon's mother is a mystery (as he states multiple times he thinks it's Wylla), then he needs to state what that mystery is. As GRRM has talked about this mystery and that people had it figured out as of 1998, but he wasn't going to change it.

It is a waste of energy/time for you guys to argue subtle hints and foreshadowing to a person that doesn't even agree that there is a mystery to begin with.

I generally agree with you. Sometimes certain arguments need to be addressed. But with this particular individual, I think we're past the point of productive discourse.

[The Twinslayer]

Ok, fine. It's interpretation. But do you think there is nothing odd about that conversation: grammatically, thematically, punctuation wise, and ironically given that kings are not a rare sight as Ned and Bobby B walk by them all?

I mean, sure. It could just be two friends having a conversation without any authorial insert anywhere. But...eh. Not-GRRM-ish

I think that kings are a rare sight in the North. The dead kings in the crypts are almost never seen by outsiders. Barbry Dustin, for example, comes from a Northern family so close to the Starks that Brandon fostered with them. Yet she did not even know how to find the entrance to the crypts. And prior to Robert's visit, how many decades or centuries had it been since a king set foot north of the Neck. So far as we know, no king has set foot in the North since long before the dragons died.

I really think that this is some clever writing but the point is to lay the groundwork for a truly momentous event in AGOT -- Robb's becoming King in the North. The second layer is to highlight the isolation of the North -- dozens of kings have ruled over the North without ever paying it a visit. The third level is that it highlights how different the North is from everywhere else (snow in summer, etc).

[Mychel_Redfort]

You have your interpretation, I have mine.

Actually, if I understand well, BearQueen87 shares your interpretation, she just adds a second one, on a second level of reading, and I agree with her it's brilliant !

[BearQueen87]

I think that kings are a rare sight in the North. The dead kings in the crypts are almost never seen by outsiders. Barbry Dustin, for example, comes from a Northern family so close to the Starks that Brandon fostered with them. Yet she did not even know how to find the entrance to the crypts. And prior to Robert's visit, how many decades or centuries had it been since a king set foot north of the Neck. So far as we know, no king has set foot in the North since long before the dragons died.

I really think that this is some clever writing but the point is to lay the groundwork for a truly momentous event in AGOT -- Robb's becoming King in the North. The second layer is to highlight the isolation of the North -- dozens of kings have ruled over the North without ever paying it a visit. The third level is that it highlights how different the North is from everywhere else (snow in summer, etc).

Anyone who is dead is rarely seen. That's not the point. Kings are not rare in the North. They existed, for thousands of years, in the north ruling. And, by novels end, there is another King in the North--who, going with your second point, never once "hides" under any sort of pretext. He is declared king by his bannermen and lives as such until the Red Wedding (and, IIRC, his body is never returned to WF to lay in "hiding" with the other KitN---Jon, we ALL know, is going down to those crypts eventually).

Point: kings are not rare in the north. And sometimes, they "hide" under the stone and snow of Wintefell or the name snow such as Jon.

Actually, if I understand well, BearQueen87 shares your interpretation, she just adds a second one, on a second level of reading, and I agree with her it's brilliant !

:thumbsup:

ETA: I find it rather bizarre that we, as a collective whole, who spend hours and hours pouring over every little bit of minutia are suddenly expected to read this one exchange as just a surface reading simply because it might add weight to Legit J theory. If you don't like Legit J theory, that's fine. I get why. But trying to examine every single other sentence in this work and then saying that we can only do a surface, no subtext reading, of this Ned and Robert exchange is...baffling to say the least.

[sabrecmc]

I think there are some passages in any novel where the characters are speaking with "author voice" or whatever you want to call it. They aren't saying anything to provide information or expand their character or set the scene, really. And those tend to sort of stand out, feel a bit odd, at least to many readers. Like the statement about the rubies that the EB makes. Reading that whole passage, it just leaps out as an odd thing to even be talking about and a weird way to say it. I don't think every bit of text used to support this theory does that, by any means, just that there are some that if they are not meant to be read multiple ways, it is odd writing, at least to my way of thinking.

There is overall very little spoken interaction between Ned and Robert. It would be odd to have such a random bit thrown in there that doesn't further the plot or characters in some way. I think GRRM chooses his words too carefully for that. But, maybe they're just chillin' (pun intended).

[markg171]

I am beyond trying to explain things to you. What I believe has no impact on you or your thoughts. I simply asked, "how would you like to see it written so that you would believe, too?" Care to answer?

Well if Jon comes from the TOJ, I'd need Howland Reed to come out and say so seeing as he's the only one left alive to dispute what Ned has said. If he comes from Starfall, I'm not sure I'd ever really be able to be fully convinced, seeing as you'd have the 3 main mothers in the same place (Wylla, Ashara, Lyanna) with potentially all 3 of them dead, and the Dayne household has already said it's Wylla.

Or hell, just any hint at all that Lyanna was ever pregnant would be a nice start.

[Ser Creighton]

I think that there are multiple layers to interpreting Daenerys' visions in the HotU. There are several writers involved, including GRRM, and we know that the visualization of the written word would have given away too many hints and clues. I see that Snow is on the throne and Daenerys does not disturb (him) it. She finds her true love north of the Wall, and her child. Hmmm. As much as I dislike Daenerys marrying Jon, it may indeed be where we are going.

I actually don't think she will marry Jon as much as I joke around about it, it just makes for good comedy. You know the two have had no contact so as readers we are left with symbolism, parallels, metaphors, themes, hints, clues, allusions, etc... I just think they have a clear association with each other and will be involved one of the major parts of the book in the long night. I think the long night will shift the realm away from the petty nature of the throne, well at least some of the realm. I say it a lot but I look at the unity of opposition with them, and others, I don't limit it to them, it would be like limiting parallels to them. I also say things like a child will be involved, but I always try to point out it does not have to be a birth. On an outside note I sometimes think she will marry Bran if either of them make it, Pact of ice and fire.

I often wonder what may be left of KL when she gets to Westeros, it may be there it may be a ruin, with all the wars and enemies who knows.

Here just to show you something, I wrote sun and moon and that is all about inverse parallels, and cyclical nature, unity of opposition and history repeating. Now take a look at something from the world book.

In the Yi Ti section which seems to indicate that they are basically Proto Valyrians, there is this passage. It's about the God Emperor, now of course it's a tale and so you generally look at the symbolism and themes. You take it to literally and it's insane even for Martins world. The God Emperor was the only Child of the Lion of Night and the Maid made of light. This pretty much identical symbolism to what I wrote well before this book came out. Though you can invert it, night is female or day is male it doesn't matter as long as they are polarities.

That was basically the exact same idea I wrote down. Now of course this section leads into Azor Ahai and the long night, which my theory also did. But there is something specific that caught my eye. Now I am not making a debate on who is what, and who has all the special powers and all that stuff. It's just a passage, interpretation is up to everyone else.

Dominion was passed down from the God - on - Earth through his family over time. "The Pearl Emperor, The Jade Emperor, the Onyx Empreror, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, the Opal Emperor, the Amethyst Empress, who her younger brother killed. The Bloodstone Emperor, and the world was filled with all kinds of bad. and the Lion of Night unleashed his wrath upon them and the Maiden made of light turned her back on humanity. This is the long night. It's listed as long night just to be clear. So then the hero of many names arose and led the virtuous and all that. And light and love returned to the world. I like to think Azor was actually leading the desperate who wanted to live, but you know mythology has flare to it.

So of course in Essos you have a large movement that believes Day is AA. Which you know whatever, I don't need anyone to be called AA or the Prince, they are some of the people who will rise up to you know, survive and help others and all that.

But it is those Emperors who caught my eye. Because of this, and this may have been talked about I don't know to many Damn threads. But one part about Dany's dream had always confused me till the world books came out.

“Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.”

“… wake the dragon …”

I could not figure out the stones for eyes. Now it actually makes sense. But also that last line, I believe it alludes to more than one thing. Not just Dany, and not just her dragons.

Anyway, at least I know who was urging her on now. You can also combine that story with the original tale of the sun and the moon with the dragons being the child or children or however you want to read it.

“No, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE?”

I do not debate if Jon will take a throne or not, because he may or may not, same for Dany and anyone currently not on the throne. I do debate who Jon' enemies are both now and future. Universally she is a mother figure, weather people like her or not. Just like Jon is a symbol of conciliation and balance. Of course the Father does hold the scales in the faith.

Anyway I did not want to detract the R+L=J thread with this. But looking at some of the posts, it really doesn't bother me much. Could be worse, we could be trying send certain poster sugar free Gummi Bears for the holidays.

[MtnLion]

1. Well if Jon comes from the TOJ, I'd need Howland Reed to come out and say so seeing as he's the only one left alive to dispute what Ned has said.

If he comes from Starfall, I'm not sure I'd ever really be able to be fully convinced, seeing as you'd have the 3 main mothers in the same place (Wylla, Ashara, Lyanna) with potentially all 3 of them dead, and the Dayne household has already said it's Wylla.

Or hell, just any hint at all that Lyanna was ever pregnant would be a nice start.

1. So, you would believe Howland, but not anyone else? And what he says directly? You don't think that any of the characters lack information about the truth, or are unreliable/dishonest?

Wylla may have nursed Jon, the meaning of milk-brother.

Lyanna in a "bed of blood" (birthing bed). Bed of Blood means exactly one thing in every book, birthing bed.

[Greymoon]

Or hell, just any hint at all that Lyanna was ever pregnant would be a nice start.

here are some hints :

1) What about she's dead? Isn't that a hint that something happened to Lyanna, beyond her being kidnapped? Even if you want to believe she died only of a fever as Ned claims... something caused that fever; fever is not an disease but a symptom, it's part of the body's mechanism for fighting against infections. Fever can develop during pregnancy, during labor, or after childbirth. Fever after childbirth, can be a symptom of puerperal infection.

Do you have another logical explanation for Lyanna's death?

2) no matter what version you believe, Rhaegar most certainly had sexual intercourse with Lyanna. What is a common result of sexual intercourse? there is means of contraception in westeros -- but most, well educated young maidens do not use them. It's probably not even that easy to come across. Cersei, Arianna and Asha should not be taken as examples for most women in westeros. If tansy tea/moon tea was so easy to get by, or it's knowledge so widely spread, there would be no bastards in Westeros.... also, Catelyn Stark would have known from the start what her father was mumbling about.

3) the textual clues, first among them 'bed of blood'. In other contexts, clearly designates childbirth.... Another question for you: Lyanna officially died of a fever. Yet, Ned found her in a 'bed of blood'. Why was Lyanna bleeding? And if she'd been injured, and died from her injuries, then why would Ned omit that part?

4) the phallus imagery. The crown of blue roses aside (don't want to start new debates about that), a spear/lance is a phallic symbol. And Rhaegar points the phallic symbol towards Lyanna. The phallus and phallic symbols usually represent fertility.

[Ygrain]

Why, didn't you know that Lyanna committed suicide because her FB profile wouldn't update? "Ned, promise me you would check my message wall regularly, promise me..."

[IceFire125]

I think that there are multiple layers to interpreting Daenerys' visions in the HotU. There are several writers involved, including GRRM, and we know that the visualization of the written word would have given away too many hints and clues. I see that Snow is on the throne and Daenerys does not disturb (him) it. She finds her true love north of the Wall, and her child. Hmmm. As much as I dislike Daenerys marrying Jon, it may indeed be where we are going.

Same here, I'm a fan for Val to be with Jon in the end, if not, a significant portion later in the series (if she survives), but if we're supposed to give hints and clues equal weight, then from this Dany chapter, I think GRRM wants us to keep our minds open for Dany to be in an intimate involvement with Jon. Per HotU vision, for love to betray her, she first need to love... him.

Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall’s scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another?

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice.

[BearQueen87]

Why, didn't you know that Lyanna committed suicide because her FB profile wouldn't update? "Ned, promise me you would check my message wall regularly, promise me..."

must be damn near impossible to get a signal at the TOJ...

[IceFire125]

Why, didn't you know that Lyanna committed suicide because her FB profile wouldn't update? "Ned, promise me you would check my message wall regularly, promise me..."

Hmmm...

FB = Facebook = Blue color

Facebook has a blue theme... it also has a WALL... are you telling us that there's something blue and Lyanna related at the wall??????

Ygrain, that was so subtle, so subtle... I see what you did there. You can't hide from our RLJ zooming goggles!!

[BearQueen87]

Hmmm...

FB = Facebook = Blue color

Facebook has a blue theme... it also has a WALL... are you telling us that there's something blue and Lyanna related at the wall??????

Ygrain, that was so subtle, so subtle... I see what you did there. You can't hide from our RLJ zooming goggles!!

You're reading way too much into the subtext!!!! In fact you're acknowledging subtext! Bad IceFire! Bad!

[Ser Creighton]

must be damn near impossible to get a signal at the TOJ...

Don't you know?It was a cell tower.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Anyone who is dead is rarely seen. That's not the point. Kings are not rare in the North. They existed, for thousands of years, in the north ruling. And, by novels end, there is another King in the North--who, going with your second point, never once "hides" under any sort of pretext. He is declared king by his bannermen and lives as such until the Red Wedding (and, IIRC, his body is never returned to WF to lay in "hiding" with the other KitN---Jon, we ALL know, is going down to those crypts eventually).

Point: kings are not rare in the north. And sometimes, they "hide" under the stone and snow of Wintefell or the name snow such as Jon.

King's are a rare sight in the north. We know this and Ned says so in the quote you have provided upthread.

To go along with this passage equating Jon as king, we can look to the setting. So if you want to push it as symbolism or foreshadowing the obvious and more accurate outcome would be Jon as King of Winter.

Or... snow mentioned in the north is common because snow is common in the north and Robert is speaking of commoners (Ned's people.) So all common northerners are bastards. ;)

[Greymoon]

Why, didn't you know that Lyanna committed suicide because her FB profile wouldn't update? "Ned, promise me you would check my message wall regularly, promise me..."

;)

[markg171]

here are some hints :

1) What about she's dead? Isn't that a hint that something happened to Lyanna, beyond her being kidnapped? Even if you want to believe she died only of a fever as Ned claims... something caused that fever; fever is not an disease but a symptom, it's part of the body's mechanism for fighting against infections. Fever can develop during pregnancy, during labor, or after childbirth. Fever after childbirth, can be a symptom of puerperal infection.

Do you have another logical explanation for Lyanna's death?

2) no matter what version you believe, Rhaegar most certainly had sexual intercourse with Lyanna. What is a common result of sexual intercourse? there is means of contraception in westeros -- but most, well educated young maidens do not use them. It's probably not even that easy to come across. Cersei, Arianna and Asha should not be taken as examples for most women in westeros. If tansy tea/moon tea was so easy to get by, or it's knowledge so widely spread, there would be no bastards in Westeros.... also, Catelyn Stark would have known from the start what her father was mumbling about.

3) the textual clues, first among them 'bed of blood'. In other contexts, clearly designates childbirth.... Another question for you: Lyanna officially died of a fever. Yet, Ned found her in a 'bed of blood'. Why was Lyanna bleeding? And if she'd been injured, and died from her injuries, then why would Ned omit that part?

4) the phallus imagery. The crown of blue roses aside (don't want to start new debates about that), a spear/lance is a phallic symbol. And Rhaegar points the phallic symbol towards Lyanna. The phallus and phallic symbols usually represent fertility.

1. Fever's come from many things. Stating it must come from one single thing is nonsense. When fever's are used in the novels, they're used to indicate wounds that have gone bad. Not pregnancies.

So if we're going to use what GRRM has used in the past as any indication, as you seem to be doing, the logical explanation is that Lyanna dies from a wound that has gone bad. Not a pregnancy

2. Wrong. There's nothing to indicate that Rhaegar ever had sex with Lyanna. The only evidence for Rhaegar having sex with anyone, is Elia. Ned even says he didn't think that Rhaegar was the kind of guy who went to brothels, i.e he didn't sleep around. He therefore doesn't think of Rhaegar as the kind of guy who slept with his sister, as he was married to Elia. Robert is the one who says that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, as that's the assumption one would make when someone goes and kidnaps your bride. There's nothing other than this to say they ever did though.

3. It's words and words are wind. GRRM has drilled that into our skulls that words mean nothing. I keep asking for instances where these words have been used, and at best we get like 3 examples, and that's including Lyanna which is an assumption not a fact. There are also pregnancies within the novels without a bed of blood description, and there are instances where beds are bloody from things other than pregnancies. So a bed that's bloody can mean multiple things and pregnancies don't have to be bloody. See #1 for the rest of your question. If Lyanna was pregnant, why would Ned omit that part? You can't just pick and chose which things you can say should have been mentioned, without saying others could have been as well.

It's also noticeable when someone has given birth. Someone or a group of someones prepared Lyanna's body and her body would have told them that she'd given birth. The assumption of R+L=J requires a massive cover up, far bigger than simply Ned being the only one lying. You can't possibly account for Ned, Howland, the servants at the TOJ, everyone who was there prior to their departure before Ned gets there, everyone who was with Rhaegar when he was with Lyanna, whoever prepared Lyanna's body, and the entire Dayne household. There's no possible way that everyone has covered up the fact that Lyanna had been pregnant.

4. This is a silly argument at best. There's nothing within the text that says Rhaegar laid the crown on Lyanna's lap using his lance

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Tell me where there's any lances involved.

[BearQueen87]

Don't you know?It was a cell tower.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

1. Fever's come from many things. Stating it must come from one single thing is nonsense. When fever's are used in the novels, they're used to indicate wounds that have gone bad. Not pregnancies.

So if we're going to use what GRRM has used in the past as any indication, as you seem to be doing, the logical explanation is that Lyanna dies from a wound that has gone bad. Not a pregnancy

2. Wrong. There's nothing to indicate that Rhaegar ever had sex with Lyanna. The only evidence for Rhaegar having sex with anyone, is Elia. Ned even says he didn't think that Rhaegar was the kind of guy who went to brothels, i.e he didn't sleep around. He therefore doesn't think of Rhaegar as the kind of guy who slept with his sister, as he was married to Elia. Robert is the one who says that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, as that's the assumption one would make when someone goes and kidnaps your bride. There's nothing other than this to say they ever did though.

3. It's words and words are wind. GRRM has drilled that into our skulls that words mean nothing. I keep asking for instances where these words have been used, and at best we get like 3 examples, and that's including Lyanna which is an assumption not a fact. There are also pregnancies within the novels without a bed of blood description, and there are instances where beds are bloody from things other than pregnancies. So a bed that's bloody can mean multiple things and pregnancies don't have to be bloody. See #1 for the rest of your question. If Lyanna was pregnant, why would Ned omit that part? You can't just pick and chose which things you can say should have been mentioned, without saying others could have been as well.

It's also noticeable when someone has given birth. Someone or a group of someones prepared Lyanna's body and her body would have told them that she'd given birth. The assumption of R+L=J requires a massive cover up, far bigger than simply Ned being the only one lying. You can't possibly account for Ned, Howland, the servants at the TOJ, everyone who was there prior to their departure before Ned gets there, everyone who was with Rhaegar when he was with Lyanna, whoever prepared Lyanna's body, and the entire Dayne household. There's no possible way that everyone has covered up the fact that Lyanna had been pregnant.

4. This is a silly argument at best. There's nothing within the text that says Rhaegar laid the crown on Lyanna's lap using his lance

Tell me where there's any lances involved.

1. Fever plus blood in women who are "in a bed of blood" (which means childbirth) = puerperal fever. Look it up.

4. Read the world book.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Dany indeed had a miscarriage at the end of Dance, she had a fever connected to pregnancy