TerraPrime Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm going to try to split off the discussion of Libertarianism (and affiliated political thoughts) from the general U.S. politics threads so it doesn't clog up the thread periodically. So let's see how this works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungGriff89 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 So, to clarify a few common libertarian stances: -Freedom to do whatever you want with your body including refusing vaccinations, refusing medicine/ not having access unless you have money to pay out of pocket, doing whatever drugs you can get your hands on, eating whatever it is regardless of whether it's actually safe or not, etc.-No government funded programs or federal regulation period with the exception of a defense only military. -No federally mandated minimum wage or worker protections unless someone out to make a buck feels charitable. If I'm wrong about something let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Not you, but that's just wrong.What's the libertarian stance on unions? I mean, if a bunch of us decide to collectively demand certain conditions or wages is that cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Not you, but that's just wrong. What's the libertarian stance on unions? I mean, if a bunch of us decide to collectively demand certain conditions or wages is that cool? In theory, yes. But they oppose "close shops" and they generally oppose federal regulations against union-busting, i.e., they will be ok with the employer firing you for trying to organize a union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Not you, but that's just wrong.What's the libertarian stance on unions? I mean, if a bunch of us decide to collectively demand certain conditions or wages is that cool? They'll just fire them and hire someone else as soon as union talk is even whispered. Just cull it out every year or so to keep ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I think I see the game going on then. That's like not denying anyone water, but making them pay for the cup. And of course, the price is just high enough as to be out of the reach of the majority of folks.It's supporting a position, but disallowing the foundation and walls that allow the position to stand.And I have a feeling that the more I look, the more positions I'll find - that are good for the masses - that lack those protections to make them feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Way I see it, Libertarianism is pretty much Feudalism in disguise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 The basic assumption seems to be that individual people can be informed enough about everything they'll ever meet to make rational decisions on the choices they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Was the US system prior to the implementation of a Federal tax system not essentially a libertarian one? And this happened rather late - in the early 1900's if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Ah yes... Moving forward into the halcyon days of the early 1900s... Sign me up.But in all seriousness, what do you mean specifically by "US System"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Ah yes... Moving forward into the halcyon days of the early 1900s... Sign me up. I think they're aiming for a bit further back than that. Teddy Roosevelt and Taft were into trust busting, and they're not too keen on McKinley's foreign policy or trade policies. You'd be looking at Grover Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Was the US system prior to the implementation of a Federal tax system not essentially a libertarian one? And this happened rather late - in the early 1900's if I'm not mistaken.doubtful. henry clay's 'american system' probably ain't consistent, nor are the various restrictions on the franchise, nor is coverture, nor is chattel slavery, nor is genocide contra indigenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 My perception is that the majority of Americans who call themselves "libertarian" (especially with a lower case "l") are really just using the term as shorthand for holding positions on economic issues have been considered "conservative" within the last several decades and positions on social issues (especially those concerning sex and drugs) that have been considered "liberal." In other words, believing in cutting taxes and legalizing pot. I don't think a lot of those people have thought deeply about political philosophy and really don't subscribe to the more stringent views of the Libertarian Party. And even among committed Libertarians there would certainly be a range of views. As I understand it, it's only a radical fringe group among Libertarians who advocate for policing to be a completely privately owned and operated function in society. If I remember correctly, even Ayn Rand thought that idea was crazy. So the minimal government most Libertarians wish for would include locally funded police as well as that defensive national military. I suspect that the radical Libertarians who want to get rid of the police get a lot more attention than they warrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Was the US system prior to the implementation of a Federal tax system not essentially a libertarian one? And this happened rather late - in the early 1900's if I'm not mistaken. The 16th Amendment was ratified in 1913, but a formal tax on income was first implemented during the civil war in the 1860s. Here's a short summary for the history (trigger warning: Library of Congress site). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 We talked about this in the other thread, but it's so loosely defined as to be meaningless. Different people mean too many things when they say "libertarian."I would still like an answer from self-professed libertarians who think the government should only be involved in property rights enforcement, or in the military, or in just those two things: what makes that so special? Why do they want government involved in those things, versus the total laissez-faire of anarchism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 It's no less meaningful than "Liberal" or "Conservative" or "Democrat" or "Republican," and we use those terms daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 We talked about this in the other thread, but it's so loosely defined as to be meaningless. Different people mean too many things when they say "libertarian." You mean like the terms 'liberal;, 'conservative', 'leftist', 'democrat' and 'republican'? Because I can get behind that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRider Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 The basic assumption seems to be that individual people can be informed enough about everything they'll ever meet to make rational decisions on the choices they make. Ain't nobody got time for that. Literally. And that is how they get you. Can you imagine an SLA to sign with every fucking transaction. Commerce would grind to a fucking halt, or people would enter into onerous contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Ain't nobody got time for that. Literally. And that is how they get you. ... Or the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Can you imagine an SLA to sign with every fucking transaction. Commerce would grind to a fucking halt, or people would enter into onerous contracts. And equally likely, because people will still want open heart surgeries when needed and till want high-speed internet and still want to eat buy a house, they will go ahead and sign those contracts whether they are, objectively, prepared to or not. So when things go south, they are out of options or recourse because they were supposed to have fully investigated the service providers and vetted their expertises, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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