Lord Varys Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 'Mercy' isn't finished yet. There is no way Cersei ends up in such a position of supreme power again that a man like Raff does not make a misogynistic references to her walk, let alone operate under the assumption that she would care all that much about a dwarf's head when she is surrounded by enemies on all sides. George has even said that he has rewritten this chapter a lot in the past and may/will do so in the future. It was only released, I think, due to the parallel in season 4. Considering Raff's story in AFfC/ADwD he must also know about Connington and Aegon yet there seems to be no urgency to Harys' mission nor a general feeling of the Lannister regime facing trouble or even has problems faced in the recent past. The very thought that a restored Queen Regent Cersei would even contemplate executing Harys for a minor offense (like failing as an emissary) makes little sense in the light of the fact that she would definitely by surrounded by enemies/rivals (Tyrells and Martells) on the Small Council and thus greatly rely on the last Lannister bannerman on the Small Council. Not to mention that it makes no sense to assume that Cersei would even send Harys to Braavos. The Epilogue established that Tyrells (and Kevan, to a lesser degree) wanted that. Cersei has broken the ties to the Iron Bank and would most likely indeed pay the Crown's debts with Lannister gold rather trying to get another loan. Both Mercy and Alayne seem to be quite unfinished to me, especially as the general tone of both chapters greatly reeks of 'five-year-gap' rather than designed and written as a continuation of the last ADwD/AFfC chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 What if the "queenmaker" plot is the plot? Like, what if the Sand Snakes' plan is something stupid and short-sighted like chopping Myrcella in little pieces and sending her to Cersei. And then Doran stops that nonsense, and says, "Duh, are you idiots forgetting about that little thing called Dornish Law?", and then he sends the Sand Snakes to KL to assassinate Tommen, and Trystane marries Myrcella? But that will still mean Doran has been doing nothing for 16 years? Myrcella only fell into his lap recently. So Doran was just content that his sister and nephew/niece were murdered for 16 years until an unforeseen conflict landed Myrcella in his lap, and then another unforeseen assassination killed Joffrey fell again into his lap. So Doran has just been waiting for miracles to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 But that will still mean Doran has been doing nothing for 16 years? Myrcella only fell into his lap recently. So Doran was just content that his sister and nephew/niece were murdered for 16 years until an unforeseen conflict landed Myrcella in his lap, and then another unforeseen assassination killed Joffrey fell again into his lap. So Doran has just been waiting for miracles to happen?Yeah, just like the book version. Without Arianne, I think it's unlikely to have the whole Viserys angle (unless one of the Sand Snakes had been promised to Viserys instead, which is problematic in and of itself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirDulud Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 One thought to keep in mind, about how much is cut or changed from the books to the tv show, is that the books allow for density, meandering, wandering, and going "off-center"; it allows an artist to go "off topic" and build a tangible world with tangential arcs, minor characters, small details, to really make the world dimensional. It is not a screenplay, which has a technical purpose - and it is not a production bible - which requires simplification, exactitude, and also a sense of narrative cohesion and time-based (1 hr per episode) delivery. Quite often the book fans sound like they simply have no idea what goes into making a cinematic product. Not that you need to go to film school - but really - it's a different medium with different demands. And this show is not David Lynch's TWIN PEAKS. Thank goodness. It is NOT going to get into some random season where the creators explore a tangential branch of the world, hoping to keep an audience involved at every step "just because" it belongs to this much-loved world supported by random fandom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 But that will still mean Doran has been doing nothing for 16 years? Myrcella only fell into his lap recently. So Doran was just content that his sister and nephew/niece were murdered for 16 years until an unforeseen conflict landed Myrcella in his lap, and then another unforeseen assassination killed Joffrey fell again into his lap. So Doran has just been waiting for miracles to happen? How is that much different from the book version, whose plans hinged on Viserys acquiring an army entirely on his own initiative somehow, an event that only came close to happening due to a completely unrelated conspiracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 How is that much different from the book version, whose plans hinged on Viserys acquiring an army entirely on his own initiative somehow, an event that only came close to happening due to a completely unrelated conspiracy? That marriage was not brokered by Viserys, it was by Illyrio/Varys, and who's to say that they weren't keeping Doran in the loop the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 But that will still mean Doran has been doing nothing for 16 years? Myrcella only fell into his lap recently. So Doran was just content that his sister and nephew/niece were murdered for 16 years until an unforeseen conflict landed Myrcella in his lap, and then another unforeseen assassination killed Joffrey fell again into his lap. So Doran has just been waiting for miracles to happen? No he has been waiting to marry his son off to Daenerys. Not sure what the problem is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 No he has been waiting to marry his son off to Daenerys. Not sure what the problem is here. Until Viserys died, Dany had no claim to the throne, marrying his son to Dany gains Dorne nothing, there is no Dornish heir to the IT in that bargain. Doran cares about getting a Dornish heir in line to the IT. In the books he has Arriane betrothed to Viserys. In the show he doesn't have Arriane. Doran would have to be a big idiot to risk all of Dorne for a Targaryan restoration that has no benefit to Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 That marriage was not brokered by Viserys, it was by Illyrio/Varys, and who's to say that they weren't keeping Doran in the loop the entire time. GRRM confirmed that Varys doesn't know anything about Doran's plans, which is obvious in the book since JonCon has no idea that Doran has already been intriguing against the Lannisters when he tries to make contact with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 The only thing that kept coming to my mind is that Dany is very, very likely to win the second dance of dragons if Aegon is that relevant to the final of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 The only thing that kept coming to my mind is that Dany is very, very likely to win the second dance of dragons if Aegon is that relevant to the final of the story. Has anyone really doubted this? It is stated right in the HotU that fAegon is destined for failure. But the important thing is, what will the Second Dance cost to Dany? There is no way Cersei ends up in such a position of supreme power again ... This is where you err ;) If (when) UnGregor wins the trial by combat, Cersei is cleared from all the charges. Following the assassinations, the power is right there waiting to be grabbed. Cersei will not miss that chance because she has access to Tommen who signs anything put in front of him. With a swift stroke, Cersei can have Tommen sign a paper granting her his regency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I just had a horrible thought. Many people seem to think the show is going to drop R+L=J this year. Season 5 doesn't have Howland Reed, or anyone else he could have plausibly told the secret to. But there's no reason TV Ashara Dayne couldn't have told, say, TV Doran Martell before she killed herself. Or maybe they even merged Starfall into the Water Gardens on TV. And… you can see where this is going, and probably don't want to see it any more than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Nope. She has already confessed to several sins and crimes, and has begin atoning for them. But her walk did not let her off the hook. Kevan and the High Septon made a deal to keep her off power, and I very much doubt the High Septon will suffer a wanton woman like Cersei as Queen Regent again. Tommen is also not appointing his own regent(s), the Small Council is - check AFfC, it's right in there that Pycelle and Ser Harys asked Ser Kevan to take over for Cersei following her arrest. And Mace is the Hand, he speaks with the King's Voice even while he is not regent - he can name himself even against Tommen's will as the king is a boy and thus not participating the governance of the Realm. Should Cersei have Tommen sign and stamp a decree naming her regent again Mace would take that as seriously as Cersei took Robert's last will... Cersei and the Lannisters are pretty much powerless in KL. They cannot enforce their will using violence as they did back when Robert died. They don't have the men to oppose or even threaten the Tyrells (or the Faith), nor has Cersei any honor or personal authority left to inspire anyone in KL to fight for her against the Faith, the Tyrells, or Aegon. Do you really believe that men-at-arms who have seen the naked Queen Dowager would take up her cause against the Tyrells/Faith who outnumber them greatly? This doesn't make any sense. If George had wanted Cersei to return to supreme power he would either never have arrested her or he would spared her/skipped the walk. If there is a trial-by-combat she might get off the hook and save her life, but do you really think she and the Tyrells are going to sit idly after the corpses are discovered? The scheduled date for the trial-by-combat is still days away. Cersei didn't wait what would happen when she toppled Ned and took over after Robert's death, and there is no reason to assume that she and the Tyrells will stick to wait and see when Cersei has to fear for her and Tommen's life and the Tyrells have only to take all the power in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Cersei and the Lannisters are pretty much powerless in KL. They cannot enforce their will using violence as they did back when Robert died. They don't have the men to oppose or even threaten the Tyrells (or the Faith), nor has Cersei any honor or personal authority left to inspire anyone in KL to fight for her against the Faith, the Tyrells, or Aegon.Agreed. Cersei's big plan was to get the Faith on her side against the Tyrells. Having banked everything on that, she has no way to go against the Faith, and the only way to go against the Tyrells is to re-ally with the Faith from a position of extreme weakness, which makes her a very junior partner at the very best. She can't even ally with any external forces, because every single one of them has even more reason to hate her (and less to gain from an alliance with her) than the Tyrells or the Faith (except maybe Balon, but what does he bring to the table?). If there is a trial-by-combat she might get off the hook and save her life, but do you really think she and the Tyrells are going to sit idly after the corpses are discovered? The scheduled date for the trial-by-combat is still days away. Cersei didn't wait what would happen when she toppled Ned and took over after Robert's death, and there is no reason to assume that she and the Tyrells will stick to wait and see when Cersei has to fear for her and Tommen's life and the Tyrells have only to take all the power in KL.I don't see how Tommen is in even the slightest bit of danger from the Tyrells. Tommen is the their only route to power. He's also a pretty good one, at least on TV, but even if he weren't, who else could they possibly back? And why kill Cersei? Keeping her alive, powerless, and in their sphere of control makes them look like good guys, and gives them a useful bargaining chip if worst comes to worst and they have to make terms with an enemy (again, except maybe for Balon, all of their potential enemies at this point hate Cersei even more than them—even the Martells, which is quite an accomplishment). Of course Cersei won't see any of it that way. But I don't see how (at least in the TV verse) she could get Tommen to flee the Tyrells with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan of Westeros Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Yep the mummers dragon is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion4President Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Interesting idea I just had after scanning this thread. What if fAegon isnt really Aegon at all. What if his role in the books (and possibly the show) is simply to revive the idea of Targ rule? Lets say in the WOW we find out he is killed in battle and his army is left without a lord to rally around. The fact that they revived the idea of putting a Targ on the throne would benefit Dany. Now this is may be a long shot that Varys would anticipate him dying(unless he has him killed) but imagine his plan was to simply have an army in waiting for Dany's arrival to Westeros? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NymeriaWarriorQueen Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Interesting idea I just had after scanning this thread. What if fAegon isnt really Aegon at all. What if his role in the books (and possibly the show) is simply to revive the idea of Targ rule? Lets say in the WOW we find out he is killed in battle and his army is left without a lord to rally around. The fact that they revived the idea of putting a Targ on the throne would benefit Dany. Now this is may be a long shot that Varys would anticipate him dying(unless he has him killed) but imagine his plan was to simply have an army in waiting for Dany's arrival to Westeros? Thoughts?That would work but wasn't the original plan for Young Griff/Ageon to meet up with Daenerys in Volantis or go to her in Meereen? It was Tyrion who planted the seed in Young Griff's mind to raise an army and be a conqueror in Westeros so as to show he was a fit consort for Daenerys. Book Varys nor Illyrio never had a plan that Ageon would arrive first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndance Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 In many of their recent interviews Dan and Dave mention several times they have to leave a lot of characters out of the show, due to neccesity. It's already the biggest cast in TV. That's why we won't see Coldhands, LS, and fAegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyk65 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Then they may as well have left out Drogo, Jorah, Varys and Tywin for that matter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Guys I got great news about a certain missing son of Rhaegar'.Book and show spoilers.Now don't let this slip out, it's just between us, but it appears HBO has pulled a fast one. It appears Rhaegars hidden son has been cast and cast for sometime, though there are some changes from the book. It appears that young Griff will actually be named Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell and instead of being raised by Jon Con, he will have been raised by Ned Stark, Lyanna' brother. Now he does not look like young griff from the books he has Drak hair and eyes and is older but still, this is great news. He is played by an actor named Kit Harrington I believe. Now this may conflict with the books some but still it is a hidden Targ story, though it takes place in Westeros and the north rather than Essos and the Dorne. They have also given him a Dire Wolf named Ghost who rocks like a boss. I am not sure about this change but I actually feel like it will improve the hidden prince story of young Griff. I think I shall start a new thread and call it R+L= HBO Young Griff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.