Hugo Drama 2015

[Shryke]

Well, yeah (altho some genres more than others, some of which I read a lot of), but it's also pretty dumb to go "wah wah wah they don't have the same preference I have".

Not really. People complain about awards all the time. Especially when they feel the voters choices don't reflect the stated intention of the award. It's perfectly valid to voice your objections to this and people have been doing it for years. Shit, every single Hugo Awards thread on this board is full of it.

It's the slate-voting to hate on the SJWs that's bullshit.

[Lord of Rhinos]

Holy appropriation.

I strongly disagree that any of the bolded should be lumped into "Epic Fantasy" just because you are an epic fantasy fan. "Curse" and "Paladin" are extremely self contained novels where the main focus lies on the POV characters' personal journey and their relationship with the divine more than anything.

PSS, the Scar and IC land in the hilly border-landscape between the Ottoman Empire Steampunk, fantasy and horror. To lump these three (within themselves quite different novels) together and stick a nice, neat "epic fantasy" label on them is just appropriating that which does not belong to your favourite subgenre. Just face the facts: sometimes you read novels from outside "Epic fantasy" and that's not a bad thing, Good writing can be found in lots of places. Good stories too. Sometimes even in the most surprising places where you normally don't look, and maybe, just maybe, those genre straddling novels may be a good way out of being stuck in one place. I have no idea why, if you find something that doesn't fit the mold, instead of thinking this exciting and a new possibility, it needs to be jammed into the already existing box.

So no, you cannot stick these things into the Epic Fantasy box. They don't belong there.

As for why Epic Fantasy isn't nominated often? A lot of it sucks. It's reductive, it's boring and it's often the same feeling as bingeing on romance novels. That doesn't mean I avoid reading either, or can't find good stuff in either genre (I can), but the huge majority is pretty meh.

Holy Appropriation? Really, Lyanna, really? :rolleyes:

A pseudo-medieval setting, gods intervening in human affairs, sword fights, ancient curses, political intrigue, the fate of the kingdom in the balance, breathtaking escapes, daring rescues....obviously none of the elements of Epic Fantasy are here. Heh, I note you don't actually say where the Chalice books belong. I used to refer to the Bas-Lag as New Weird like Mieville said but it never really branched off enough to get its own subgenre going so I don't tend to use it anymore. Placing a label on a book is all about taking something messy and putting it in a box. That's the entire point of the thing. I suspect the reason I like Epic Fantasy and you seem so dubious of it is precisely because I have a broad definition of Epic Fantasy and you have a narrow one.

And if you have questions about my reading feel free to ask me instead of making assumptions. I'm happy to answer. I'm fairly eclectic in my reading. The last 20 books I read were 7 non-fiction, 13 fiction. Of the 13 fiction; 2 were general lit, 2 where childrens', 3 were mystery/thriller, 3 were Epic Fantasy (1 of them you would disagree with my about its genre), 2 were fantasy, and 1 was sci-fi. So don't worry, I'm doing ok. I'm not holed up in my room free basing Epic Fantasy, Mom.

And I don't know how to tell you this....I'm just going to get it out.....Robert Jordan is dead :bawl:

Well, wait. Are you claiming the Dresden Files are Epic fantasy, or that they aren't? Dresden's UF, clear cut as it ever was.

Nope, I was making a point that people can vote for the same book for different reasons. Didn't have anything to do with genre.

There isn't very much overlap in WFA winners and Hugo winners, for sure. The Hugo voters seem to consistently ignore Tim Powers (BEST AUTHOR EVER), who has won 2 WFAs and been nominated for 3 others. I'd blame this on the fact that he is fairly conservative/religious, only he is also one of the more "literary" authors out there so he still wouldn't fit the puppy bill. Also, he was chosen as a guest of honor by Reno Worldcon, which was run by fans who are mostly from the SF Bay Area, not exactly a hotbed of conservativism.

But seriously, guys, just read Tim Powers. :P

I would read Tim Powers but Lyanna tells me I only read Epic Fantasy. All that talk earlier about the WFA was damn dirty lies ;)

[Squab]

It's the slate-voting to hate on the SJWs that's bullshit.

The SJWs didnt control the Hugos, its the rich white men who've been handing out the award to themselves and their friends who're all now annoyed that they have to share it with other rich white men.

Its all power masquarading as politics.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Will no one save us from the nefarious "Social Justice Warriors"???

They are infiltrating every aspect of Fannish life. I shall faint of apoplexy unless something is done....

[Lyanna Stark]

Holy Appropriation? Really, Lyanna, really? :rolleyes:

Yep. I prefer my termionology to be as clearly defined as possible without people getting to appropriate words for whatever they want it to mean because they'd like that better. I'm such an unfunny old grand-mother who want people to get off my lawn and stay off my lawn.

A pseudo-medieval setting, gods intervening in human affairs, sword fights, ancient curses, political intrigue, the fate of the kingdom in the balance, breathtaking escapes, daring rescues....obviously none of the elements of Epic Fantasy are here. Heh, I note you don't actually say where the Chalice books belong.

I think Bujold's novels are fantasy, but not "epic fantasy" or as it is also known "high fantasy". Sure, you can cram them into that box, but then you can also cram a lot of say, Norse mythology in there with using similar "if I say it fits, it fits" sort of definition. Facts are, the sword fights in "Curse" are exactly one, and it's extremely small, too. There is a bit more fighting in "Paladin", and as I stated, it also includes a siege. However, fighting occurs in UF, horror etc too, sometimes even sword fighting. Saying "there's a sword fight in the novel" doesn't automatically mean it is "epic fantasy". Further, the heroes are atypical for a classic, heroic fantasy. Neither dy Cazaril nor Ista are traditional heroes. The stories may pertain to saving a kingdom, but the main thrust of the stories is not "saving the kingdom", it is the personal stories of dy Cazaril and Ista we care about. Personally, my investment in Chalion is pretty miniscule. For all I care the Fox of Ibra could rule the place and well, it wouldn't really matter much. There is no Threat to the World, Ibra and the other countries aren't Evil Incarnate, just other kingdoms. Somewhat more of a threat in "Paladin" perhaps, but it's still more about the mystery and about Ista's internal journey than it is about external factors.

Given that my favourite "Paladins" quote is as follows:

“Once, she had been her parents' daughter. Then great, unlucky Ias's wife. Her children's mother. At the last, her mother's keeper. Well, I am none of these things now. Who am I, when I am not surrounded by the walls of my life?”

I guess if you find it heroic to find purpose within one's own life?

Then we have the plot. Does it have an epic scope in Curse? Not really. It's fairly limited to Chalion with a short overture to Ibra. "Paladin" is even more contained. None of these stories is either multi POV or multi-volume either.

Ergo: I feel it is lazy and pointless to try and pigeonhole these stories as "epic fantasy" since tagging on "epic" for the sake of it makes that label essentially meaningless. Instead of referring to scope, feel or any type of enormous sprawl, it means "fantasy with stuff I like for instance X, Y and Z".

I used to refer to the Bas-Lag as New Weird like Mieville said but it never really branched off enough to get its own subgenre going so I don't tend to use it anymore. Placing a label on a book is all about taking something messy and putting it in a box. That's the entire point of the thing. I suspect the reason I like Epic Fantasy and you seem so dubious of it is precisely because I have a broad definition of Epic Fantasy and you have a narrow one.

No. To me it's a descriptive term. If there is no "epic" in the fantasy, then it's just fantasy so me (or in Mieville's case, I do feel "New Weird" is better, and the best is perhaps "Steampunk" since it has factories, trains, industry, fledgling trade unions etc). I don't feel the need to stick it in a box where it does not belong. If a fitting box eventually appears, I'll make use of it. The Urban-genre did certainly not exist as a concept I was aware of when I started reading it, most likely because I live in redneck-ville (or the equivalent of). That doesn't mean I won't use it when I feel it is appropriate. Or avoid using it when I feel it is not appropriate. Some novels may straddle genres or give cause to discuss where they belong.

And if you have questions about my reading feel free to ask me instead of making assumptions. I'm happy to answer. I'm fairly eclectic in my reading. The last 20 books I read were 7 non-fiction, 13 fiction. Of the 13 fiction; 2 were general lit, 2 where childrens', 3 were mystery/thriller, 3 were Epic Fantasy (1 of them you would disagree with my about its genre), 2 were fantasy, and 1 was sci-fi. So don't worry, I'm doing ok. I'm not holed up in my room free basing Epic Fantasy, Mom.

Congratulations?

And I don't know how to tell you this....I'm just going to get it out.....Robert Jordan is dead :bawl:

Well yes. I also know that a lot of us older readers had high hopes for WoT when we picked up the first couple of novels during the late 90s. I know I did, and got massively disappointed.

I would read Tim Powers but Lyanna tells me I only read Epic Fantasy. All that talk earlier about the WFA was damn dirty lies ;)

On the contrary, I support you reading other things than Epic Fantasy (I support reading in general). What I disagree with is labeling all sorts of things Epic Fantasy, even when they are clearly not.

Anyway, I feel I am derailing this thread with this debate, so Lord of Rhinos, if you want to continue discussing what Epic Fantasy is, and isn't, feel free to open a new thread about it. :)

[Galactus]

Eh, I think MIeville can be labelled as Epic Fantasy sometimes. Perdido Street Station is about saving the world from Abberations from Beyond Space and Time, includes travelling all over fantastic locations, etc.

[The Reckoner]

Aren't the Rabid Puppies SJW's of a sort?

[Galactus]

. One thing is unilateral and that is quality.

It really isn't.

[Ormond]

I'll just note that I've never said Ahmed was not white.

Absolutely. It was Procastimancer who wrote that and Cubarey who let it stand when he pointed out Correia was White. So I thought I should point out Ahmed's status for accuracy's sake.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Galactus,

Indeed. Quality is in most ways subjective.

[sologdin]

This was an interesting piece of writing on this issue someone linked me:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/04/19/the-things-you-learn-about-the-sf-community/

The most interesting part of it for me was this stuff that I'm not sure was already posted:

Which is rather .. telling.

slick. it's therefore not even a 'principled' lets-git-da-SJWs!!!1, but is rather self-oriented market participation.

[Darth Richard II]

Aren't the Rabid Puppies SJW's of a sort?

No.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Can we lay this SP/RP at "Gamergate's" door? After all SP/RP is really about ethics in gaming journalism.

Here's a lovely article explaining how Gamergate/SP/RP are all about taking it to those horrible, awful, not good "Social Justice Warriors" who are now a "cabal" controling the Hugo awards:

http://www.reaxxion.com/7528/game-of-thrones-author-denounces-gamergate-and-rabid-puppies

Blackgate withdraws from its nomination for best Fanzine:

http://www.blackgate.com/2015/04/19/black-gate-withdraws-from-hugo-consideration/?hootPostID=63f5b9583991bd1e8ee7a223c7b5c3b2

[Talleyrand]

I think and hope squab is being sarcastic.

TOTCM was also nominated for a Nebula and won the Locus award for best debut. Clearly very popular with folks.

I don't think you're understanding here. Differing opinion and tastes don't exist if something you don't like is popular/wins awards its because of a nefarious international conspiracy

[Larry of the Lawn]

Can we lay this SP/RP at "Gamergate's" door? After all SP/RP is really about ethics in gaming journalism.

Here's a lovely article explaining how Gamergate/SP/RP are all about taking it to those horrible, awful, not good "Social Justice Warriors" who are now a "cabal" controling the Hugo awards:

http://www.reaxxion.com/7528/game-of-thrones-author-denounces-gamergate-and-rabid-puppies

Blackgate withdraws from its nomination for best Fanzine:

http://www.blackgate.com/2015/04/19/black-gate-withdraws-from-hugo-consideration/?hootPostID=63f5b9583991bd1e8ee7a223c7b5c3b2

Damn, that reaxxion article is laughable. My 12 year old sister writes better than that.

[sologdin]

goodness, that's about as jaundiced and entitled as it gets. SJWS TOKE OVAR TEH HUGE AWEDRS

[MinDonner]

Oh my dear lord.

Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies, for the unaware, are two attempts to increase the diversity of the Hugo Awards, ... which originally went to legendary authors like Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, and Frank Herbert

Must increase the diversity back to those incredibly diverse Golden Age levels!

[Shryke]

slick. it's therefore not even a 'principled' lets-git-da-SJWs!!!1, but is rather self-oriented market participation.

I wonder if it is though. It occurs to me that perhaps Castalia House exists in part to promote Vox Day's agenda. He picks authors who push his viewpoint and then pushes their works. He's got John C Bugfuckcrazy as his star author after all.

[Darth Richard II]

I don't think you're understanding here. Differing opinion and tastes don't exist if something you don't like is popular/wins awards its because of a nefarious international conspiracy

Well of course. They're all out to get me.

[Zorral]

Are you confusing WorldCon with Comicon? Last year 3587 people voted, out of 10,833 members; only a subset of the membership, certainly, but by no means "very few".

I am not referring to San Diego comicon.

As you can read, since "Hugos" and "World Con" are typed so often in the post.

I'm comparing the earlier numbers attending World Cons with what they became. The first World Con was held in 1939.

2014 World Con had 7951, the second largest attendance since 1939 -- which had 200 members. Those attendees who voted for the Hugos, as in previous World Cons since the 1980s, was significantly smaller than 10%. It's easy to game the system if one is determined, motivated and has the pockets.

In fact, there was no such thing as any comic con until the 1960's. The first all-day convention focused on comix was in the mid-1960's, in NYC. It attracted about 100 attendees.

Again, comparing the numbers attending San Diego's Comicon and the numbers attending the largest sf convention, the World SF Convention, we can see how little interest in printed sf/f (whether digital or on paper pages) attracts the fans. Most of the programming at the Hugos now is not about writers or books either, but comix, games, television, etc. This is a 100% difference between what World Con used to be.

BTW, at least when it comes to the World Fantasy novel award -- it is a juried award, no outside nominations and no voting. Voting can take place for the short story and the novella, but not the novel. The Nebula is also a voting award, but only SFWA members can vote. And not that many SFWA members bother to vote for that either. Though the rules for nomination, eligibility and voting -- like who can be a SFWA member -- are always in contention. This current Hugo mess is a reflection of that as well.