How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

The fact that Sam faced some pretty severe abuse from his father all his life undercuts almost all of the OP's points. Yes Sam was born into wealth an privilege, but the kind of mental and physical torture that he went through had a huge impact on his psychology.

It can be frustrating to read his POV's but to have no empathy for his situation is being unfair to the character. It stinks of victim blaming.

[Davos is King]

The problem with Sam is, that he is a pretty unrealistic character. If even half the 'torture' he received is true he wouldn't have become that fat or incompetent with weapons.

His mother snuck him food. He's supposedly much skinnier in AFFC but still considered fat by Westerosi standards.

[LordStoneheart]

I found something we agree on O_O

I'm sure there's more we could find someday.

[Masha]

All comments are welcome and valid ... that being the case, I just want to say I don't really support your conclusions with that point at all and think its way off topic and political.

Leaving aside what the other poster said:

My own point is that, as horrible as Randyll Tarly was, it doesn't come out of nowhere, it isn't a case of Sam trying hard and not meeting high standards, he is singularly incapable and pigheaded about that fact. Sam from an early age, reading it from the books, seems like he would be singularly incapable of leading a House. Plus Dickon seems normal, and even good natured if you take into account his stopping that Game against Brienne.

I also emphasise that the harshness increased the more Sam, like the stubborn person he is, resisted all attempts at improvement. He simply didn't try, and never does. He opts out of everything even before he starts.

Being 'loyal' to his friends is subjective and I would dispute it considering how petulent he can be about the men he knows and serves with. He often doubts their friendship and says it was all down to Jon making them his friends. I would also make the case that by being so helpless most of the time, he is in and of himself endangering them and he requires extra attention to manage that other characters simply don't receieve. Characters repeatedly tip-toe around Sam in ways they don't for others.

Also, if he is smart and good with books, to go back to the point of his father, why not go down the route of being a strategist like Tyrion, read books of wars, battles, politics etc? He doesn't show any inclination to do anything he himself doesn't want to do.

Randall as quoted was completely against Sam being educated as a strategists or anything book-study related. This was a weakness for him. The only thing Randall recognized was strength of arms and for him it led to being - strong leader, good strategist, smart person, real boy.

I don't know where the notion that Sam is intelligent came from. Being able to read =/= intelligent.

First Same is insatiably curious and unlike multitude of other Stewards and Maesters for the last hundred or so years, reads and finds out details about Others and such. That's intelligence. Manipulating antagonistic people into supporting a black horse candidate - Jon - he is politicking and strategy.

His problem is a low self confidence and father inflicted self-loathing. He cannot believe that he can be courageous (even though he does courageous things) and cannot believe that someone might like him and trust him.

[Julia H.]

If there's a 2nd heir more capable of running your legacy more successful than why not?

The whole situation could have been solved amicably. There was no need to abuse, threaten or humiliate anyone. (When it comes to torture, I cannot even comprehend the "why not" question.) Sam wasn't cut out for lordship. Sam didn't want to be a lord. The "spare" seemed to be a better heir. So why not grant Sam his wish and send him to Oldtown? Dickon would still have become the rightful heir, Randyll would still have got the heir he wanted, and Sam would have been happy (he never seems to be jealous of Dickon), and everyone could have done his job - Dickon could have been a good heir, Randyll could have been a good father and Sam could have been a good maester. What kind of lord is that who cannot find such an obvious solution to a problem even in his own family? Or did he want to take revenge on Sam for not being as he "should have been"?

The description of Sam the child - with his love of sweets, kittens and music - is the description of a very average child in our modern world, a child no one would think of as a failure and a disaster. The world of ASOIAF, however, is different. There people are born into certain roles, and there are very specific expectations to meet. In fairness to Sam, he wasn't only born into a privileged family, he was also born into a type of role, into the role of an heir and a future lord. It was not his fault. Nor was it his fault that he could not meet the expectations. You simply cannot hammer tin into steel. But even in this world, there are people who realize that tin does not need to be thrown away or destroyed just because it won't become steel. It can still be used, and Sam actually knew what he could do best, and he had the courage to tell his father what he wanted to - and what he could - do. Still, Randyll chose to send Sam to an organization where he knew Sam would be unhappy, where he knew Sam had a good chance to die soon. It was only Sam's good luck that he met Jon Snow, and that eventually the Night's Watch turned out to be the best (or perhaps the second best) thing that could have happened to Sam.

Sam versus Chett: It does seem that Chett was holding the position only because the NW didn't have a more suitable person to replace him with - it is specifically mentioned how few literate people there are in the Watch. Why wasn't Chett taught to read and write? (Do we know he wasn't?) We could just as well ask why the other brothers are not taught either. Well, on the one hand, the only maester they have is blind, and he has lots of things to do practically single-handedly (like looking after the sick and the injured). On the other hand, grown up people may not learn such skills so easily. Davos in the books does, but he is intelligent and dedicated. In general, being able to read and write is not the same as being able to recognize / reproduce the letters (cf. functional illiteracy). Anyway, if it is OK to replace Sam with Dickon on the grounds that Dickon will be a more capable lord, I don't see what's wrong with replacing Chett with Sam on the grounds that Sam is a more capable maester's assistant (or whatever the name of the position is).

Jon and Sam: I do agree that having a similar background is part of the reason why they understand each other so well. There is nothing strange about that, it is just human. Jon learns to get along with people whose background is very different from his, that does not make it a sin to be happy to meet someone who understands him on a different level. In the case of Sam, joining the NW is a huge change of environment and lifestyle, and his position there is not exactly easy. It is natural that he trusts someone he can relate to, especially since said person protects him at the very start. But the similar social background is not the only thing that makes it easy for them to relate. They both have identity problems - Sam could never become the son his father wanted him to be; while Jon could never become the son he wanted to be for his father. Sam was basically disinherited. Jon was a bastard who could never have his father's name.

Sam beyond the Wall: Sam is obviously not a fit person (he is fat and clumsy and so on), but I think he proves to be much more courageous than he ever realizes.

The election: At this point, Randyll Tarly could be proud. Sam is actively doing something, Sam is actually playing the game. Deception is involved, yes, but what's on the other side? Slynt is backed by the Lannisters, even though the election of the LC is strictly NW business. Even Stannis does not try to influence the result. Slynt's claim is based on being the Lannisters' favourite, not on his qualities. It is also based on Slynt being the Lord of Harrenhal, which is kind of ridiculous. Sam does what he considers the right thing to do, and I never get the impression that he is doing it for his own comfortable future. On the whole, he is right - if they can't find a compromise candidate, it will be bad for the Watch.

How can Sam be loved? Sam is intelligent, and the election campaign is not the first time when it becomes apparent. It is also evident when they find the wights in AGoT and Sam makes important observations regarding the suspicious signs surrounding the corpses. Sam is loyal - a loyal friend, a loyal man of the NW, loyal even to his family (he never seems to have revengeful feelings towards them). Sam is compassionate: he is the first to try to help Gilly, he understands her plight despite all the social, cultural and gender differences. He is also genuinely concerned about Maester Aemon when the old man falls ill. He is also modest and humble to a fault. All in all, with all the psychological and other damage his abusive father did to him, he has grown up to be a wonderfully normal person with a kind and generous heart. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but my version of the OP's question is how can anyone not like Samwell Tarly?

[bent branch]

I haven't finished the thread, but it is scary how many people condone child abuse. In fact, this is one of the worse things about child abuse. There are a lot of people who love to pile on once a child starts to exhibit the signs of being abused.

[sootfish]

Simply put, he's one of the few wholly good characters and most readers can relate to his thirst for knowledge and books. It always surprises me how people who read fantasy novels and obsess over them enough to post on a forum hate characters like Samwell and Sansa. They're probably more like them than they think.

Some people just don't get irony, despite getting this invested in literature.

Victim blaming? Not good. Not good at all.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

There's no arguing what Randall did to Sam was pretty severe abuse. Nevertheless he remained alive and is working to better himself and honing his interests and talents, on his own terms. How the OP, who is pretty privileged compared to asioaf characters having been born in the modern world, can turn around and express contempt for Sam, is pretty ironic and shows a distinct lack of empathy imh.

Also as for the throwing him in a pond and hoping he would swim, how else do you think people learned to swim back then? There were no armbands or whatever. I first swam at the age of 14 when I was on holiday I got pushed into the deep end of the pool and in my panic I was able to swim out despite having never done it before.

Eh... like how 100% of sane people do it nowadays? With tutors who know what they are doing and safeguards in place? I sincerely hope that you don't do that to any kids or adults within your reach. If they live, it's abuse. If they drown, it's murder. Enjoy speculating about ASOIAF in prison.

[Hippo]

If you had a kid like Samwell who constantly cried and said he 'couldn't' do things before even trying then I'm sure you would get pretty pissed of as well.

Obviously it doesn't help if you have a father like Randyll but sam's attitude is terrible and i would hate to witness his cowardice. There's no place for men like Samwell in westeros as they cannot survive

[White Ravens]

I like Samwell Tarly because he is written that way.

[King Tyrion I]

I like Sam.

He's got a thirst for wisdom. And he's intelligent.

That's why I like him.

[Chinoiserie]

Didn't Sam's father kind of ignore Sam after Dickon was born? I do not remember the details but wasn't Sam like 15 at the start of the series and Dickon had been born years earlier? So Randyll abused and gave up on Sam when he was really young. Sam could have been more promising if had had more changes when he was older. It is not as if Sam was in his 20s when he was so unwilling to do anything and scared, he was like 10. And after Sam's father started to ignore him Sam might have tought Randyll was fine with him the way he was and not try as hard. But I could misrember.

[BalerionTheCat]

Each character has his/her strengths and weakness. Wanting Sam to become a fighter is plainly stupid. It is not because someone is male he must become a fighter, because she is female she can't.

Sam is nice, honest, faithful to Jon. He is not the best brother beside you in a fight. But he is the best friend you can wish for many other things. Why should I not love Sam?

OP: you sound like Randyll.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Didn't Sam's father kind of ignore Sam after Dickon was born? I do not remember the details but wasn't Sam like 15 at the start of the series and Dickon had been born years earlier?

Yeah Sam was 15 and Dickon is only a few years younger as he is part of the Reach army in the Riverlands and betrothed to a Mooten girl.

In Sam's own words his childhood was not that bad;

"Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books."

Nor is it like Randyll initially started to treat him an differently to any other young Westerosi noble

"Whatever pride his lord father might have felt at Samwell's birth vanished as the boy grew up plump, soft, and awkward...

...He only grew fatter and more frightened, until Lord Randyll's disappointment turned to anger and then to loathing."

It is also not a case of Randyll being the only Lord who saw how disappointing he was. Tarly had arranged for him to become a squire of Lord Redwyne but he became mocked at the Arbor after a girl beat him in a fight.

Obviously in the age of SJW's crying abuse at everything Sam's childhood is a wet dream to them forgetting the fact that being a noble (an heir no less) is not a free ride but comes with responsibilities. From what Sam tells us and how we have seen him in the first three books he was naturally a quitter, refusing to even try.

[Winter's Knight]

Also as for the throwing him in a pond and hoping he would swim, how else do you think people learned to swim back then? There were no armbands or whatever. I first swam at the age of 14 when I was on holiday I got pushed into the deep end of the pool and in my panic I was able to swim out despite having never done it before.

Sweet Jesus you don't throw kids into deep water and expect them to swim! That's how you kill kids.

[Ser Lepus]

Peope sympathize with Sam because he's one of the few people in Westeros who is not an evil piece of crap. They pity him for the emotional damage his father inflicted upon him, which left him the way he's now.

And to the OP: I very much doubt that you would handle yourself much better than Sam if you were dragged away from you laptop and sent to "Siberia plus zombies". Privileged as he was, Sam's life was quite less comfortable and safe than that of any modern person. Any of us would probably die of intestinal diseases within the first week there.

Also as for the throwing him in a pond and hoping he would swim, how else do you think people learned to swim back then? There were no armbands or whatever. I first swam at the age of 14 when I was on holiday I got pushed into the deep end of the pool and in my panic I was able to swim out despite having never done it before.

Do you realize that people DO drown, don't you? Not everybody who falls into the water learns to swim. Most die.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh for fuck's sake.

Samwell would have been an excellent lord: he understands politics, he's good with history and he can manipulate people. As a Southern lord during peacetime I'm not sure what else Randyll thought a lord needs to do.

Sam'd have been the sort to win wars before they became wars.

And I'm not just talking about his skills at the election -he's the one who explains to Jon the importance of being chosen as a steward.

[Lord Lannister]

It amazes me how much effort some people can put into "why don't people like/dislike what I do?!"

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Oh for fuck's sake.

Samwell would have been an excellent lord: he understands politics, he's good with history and he can manipulate people. As a Southern lord during peacetime I'm not sure what else Randyll thought a lord needs to do.

Sam'd have been the sort to win wars before they became wars.

And I'm not just talking about his skills at the election -he's the one who explains to Jon the importance of being chosen as a steward.

Good god, of course he would not. He'd be horrendous giving in at the first sign of conflict.

The Tarlys lands are near the Dornish borders, they are supposed to be the first line of defence from potential attacks from the Dornish or other armies coming through the red mountains. That is why their words are: First in Battle.

He's a good guy, intelligent and thoughtful. But those are not the qualities needed to be a Lord, especially a Lord of Horn Hill. He needed to stand up for himself, being a poor warrior is OK but giving up whenever something difficult happens is a disastrous for a Lord, his family and the people he is suppsoed to be protecting.

[Winter's Knight]

Good god, of course he would not. He'd be horrendous giving in at the first sign of conflict.

The Tarlys lands are near the Dornish borders, they are supposed to be the first line of defence from potential attacks from the Dornish or other armies coming through the red mountains. That is why their words are: First in Battle.

He's a good guy, intelligent and thoughtful. But those are not the qualities needed to be a Lord, especially a Lord of Horn Hill. He needed to stand up for himself, being a poor warrior is OK but giving up whenever something difficult happens is a disastrous for a Lord, his family and the people he is suppsoed to be protecting.

This would be a good argument if Sam did in fact have a history of giving up. He doesn't. Sam is one of the bravest characters in these books not just because he's always terrified but because he's fully convinced that he's a coward and yet he keeps pushing forward anyway.

I don't know where you get the idea that he'd abandon his family at the first sign of trouble when he faces down an Other for a wildling girl he barely knows.

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe Sam would do for a good lord. He would manage well his lands, would be prosperous. The Tyrells are powerful. It is not by Mace. But because they are wealthy, can afford numerous soldiers and knights. Sam would walk the same path.