R+L=J v.153

[King of the Narrow Sea]

I think also you can see some of the bias in that Yandel disparages Lyannas beauty where even Kevin and Jaime Lannister acknowledge it as I don't think "wild, boyish " women were Roberts fancy.
So Yandel appears to report Rhaegar did it all for the throne rather than just being taken with Lyanna as per Jorahs own tourney story.

 

Yandel calls her boyish at Harrenhal. She could have further beautified in the the next 2 years before she died (not exactly unheard of for a 14 year old to become way hotter by 16). It also could just be a case of people remembering her more beautiful than she was due to the romanticization of the war. I'm not sure if anybody's seen the Simpson's episode where they do the Iliad, but Skinner's mom plays the role of Helen of Troy and she says something like "This was the face that launched a thousand ships... the other way! Ha ha ha ha!" It's funny cause Skinner's mom is old and hideous but it might be saying more that just because a war was fought over someone doesn't mean they were physically extraordinarily beautiful and necessarily the "beauty of their age" (in this case Skinner's mom is saying they fought to get away from her). But the bards might make them so as that's the better story. I'm not saying that Lyanna was hideous (I think she had a certain beauty to her), but her beauty could have been enhanced over the years as time went on. Even Robert's first thought upon seeing her statue is "she was more beautiful than that" - people are potentially remembering her "more" than she was. She could have actually been more beautiful than the statue made for her, or Robert could just have built up that she was far more impressive than the stone woman standing before him, even if that stone woman was a perfect replica and thus he declares that Lyanna was more beautiful than she was. The common man would be even more likely to do this if even those who knew her might do it.

 

Kevan's account is extremely odd however as he never attended Harrenhal. The Westerlands stayed away from the tourney as Tywin was furious that Jaime was being made a KG there. And we know of no other situation when they ever could have possibly seen each other. So when did Kevan ever view Lyanna to have thought that she was a wild beauty? Or is it just another case of someone thinking about what they'd heard from someone else?

[Alia of the knife]

 
Yandel calls her boyish at Harrenhal. She could have further beautified in the the next 2 years before she died (not exactly unheard of for a 14 year old to become way hotter by 16). It also could just be a case of people remembering her more beautiful than she was due to the romanticization of the war. I'm not sure if anybody's seen the Simpson's episode where they do the Iliad, but Skinner's mom plays the role of Helen of Troy and she says something like "This was the face that launched a thousand ships... the other way! Ha ha ha ha!" It's funny cause Skinner's mom is old and hideous but it might be saying more that just because a war was fought over someone doesn't mean they were physically extraordinarily beautiful and necessarily the "beauty of their age" (in this case Skinner's mom is saying they fought to get away from her). But the bards might make them so as that's the better story. I'm not saying that Lyanna was hideous (I think she had a certain beauty to her), but her beauty could have been enhanced over the years as time went on. Even Robert's first thought upon seeing her statue is "she was more beautiful than that" - people are potentially remembering her "more" than she was. She could have actually been more beautiful than the statue made for her, or Robert could just have built up that she was far more impressive than the stone woman standing before him, even if that stone woman was a perfect replica and thus he declares that Lyanna was more beautiful than she was. The common man would be even more likely to do this if even those who knew her might do it.
 
Kevan's account is extremely odd however as he never attended Harrenhal. The Westerlands stayed away from the tourney as Tywin was furious that Jaime was being made a KG there. And we know of no other situation when they ever could have possibly seen each other. So when did Kevan ever view Lyanna to have thought that she was a wild beauty? Or is it just another case of someone thinking about what they'd heard from someone else?

See, I actually think it's the opposite, and she was even more beautiful than Cersei, but she lacked the vanity, polish and arrogance that goes with it.

Its sort of how I see Sansa and Arya, in that Arya will eventuality outshine Sansa in beauty, though Arya will always feel she is lacking.



Robert never UNDERSTOOD Lyanna because he only saw what he saw on the outside, which as Ned said was her beauty.

[purple-eyes]

See, I actually think it's the opposite, and she was even more beautiful than Cersei, but she lacked the vanity, polish and arrogance that goes with it.

Its sort of how I see Sansa and Arya, in that Arya will eventuality outshine Sansa in beauty, though Arya will always feel she is lacking.



Robert never UNDERSTOOD Lyanna because he only saw what he saw on the outside, which as Ned said was her beauty.

She must be the most beautiful woman in 7k considering thousands of people including silver prince rhaegar fought and died for her.

I rethought a little, now I think the war was not fought her honestly. Robert and Ned fought for their heads. So, lyanna is beautiful but not like the beauty can destroy a country.

[Alia of the knife]

She must be the most beautiful woman in 7k considering thousands of people including silver prince rhaegar fought and died for her.

I think its really irony that Martin addresses.

It's about what you don't expect for yourself or even want.

I can't imagine a more pissed off, and inconvenienced person than Arya on her own beauty.

I think of Cher in "Moonstruck" when she slaps Cage and tells him to "snap out of it."

I can see Arya doing that, and I can see Lyanna doing that to Rhaegar too.

[purple-eyes]

I think its really irony that Martin addresses.

It's about what you don't expect for yourself or even want.

I can't imagine a more pissed off, and inconvenienced person than Arya on her own beauty.

I think of Cher in "Moonstruck" when she slaps Cage and tells him to "snap out of it."

I can see Arya doing that, and I can see Lyanna doing that to Rhaegar too.

I did not understand you that much. You mean lyanna slapped rhaegar? For what?

[Alia of the knife]

I did not understand you that much. You mean lyanna slapped rhaegar? For what?

Sorry, a cultural reference to a movie regarding her character being uncomfortable with his love for her. :)

https://youtu.be/0x-fkSYDtUY

[purple-eyes]

Sorry, a cultural reference to a movie. :)https://youtu.be/0x-fkSYDtUY

Oh. Forgot to say, I think young cersei is more beautiful than Lyanna. Everybody said she is great beauty including those who hate her. All other women had some conflict comments on beauty but only her is called beauty consistently. You have to be really beautiful to make your enemy recognize it.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh. Forgot to say, I think young cersei is more beautiful than Lyanna. Everybody said she is great beauty including those who hate her. All other women had some conflict comments on beauty but only her is called beauty consistently. You have to be really beautiful to make your enemy recognize it.

And yet she remembers Lyanna as the woman who stole both men that she wanted.

Actually, as many that think Cersei beautiful think Lyanna beautiful, and none love Cersei. Oberyn says he would prefer a canopy of scorpions fall upon him than marry Cersei.

In other media, Oberyn only refers to Lyanna as having ice in her veins like all her people.

[purple-eyes]

And yet she remembers Lyanna as the woman who stole both men that she wanted.
Actually, as many that think Cersei beautiful think Lyanna beautiful, and none love Cersei. Oberyn says he would prefer a canopy of scorpions fall upon him than marry Cersei.
In other media, Oberyn only refers to Lyanna as having ice in her veins like all her people.

" Ice in her veins " has nothing to do with beauty I think. This is just a tv show hint for r+L=j.
And oberyn said this when he blamed rhaegar abandoned elia for lyanna. I do not think he thought lyanna is beautiful by saying this.
Rhaegar or Robert chose lyanna over cersei does not equal to " she is more beautiful than cersei"
We all see the difference between Diana and Carmella, right?

[Ygrain]

You mean he stayed with Lyanna and they talked about Ned and then Arthur liked Ned?

Well, Arthur was guarding Lyanna for months. I guess it follows that they also talked.

 

 

I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be a planned event.

Ever since someone pointed out the similarities between Alys Karstark and Lyanna, I have had my suspicions :-)

 

True. It is theory only. I do not see why lyanna had to be in HH. My theory: She was on the way to her brother wedding. Then she had a plan with rhaegar and ran off with him.

Perhaps, but then she would have been travelling with Rickard. Why didn't Rickard stop Brandon from his foolishness?

[SFDanny]

Right. Yandel believes the 3 KG were all together. Thats all we really get from that. Ned and Arthur single combat idea is the conclusion from returning Dawn. There is no link to Lyanna. The three KG is one of many possibilities if Ned says nothing, its only a certainty of Ned says it - which doesn't make sense for Ned.

Its much easier to think that this is a continuity error by the authors and Yandel doesn't actually know this (or in fact, not a continuity error, but Yandel doesn't know it and is just writing it in as the preferred history that generally fits with what is known), than to believe that Ned told a big story about the KG and Lyanna and the ToJ when he could have just remained silent.
 

 
That assumes he knows though. Like he 'knows' all the other incorrect or propaganda-ised things he writes in for the consumption of the Royal House Baratheon...

 

Ned told Robert about Lyanna, though he need say very little there - Robert is the accepting kind.
Ned does not need to tell the families of his friends anything. He does not need to tell the Daynes anything.

Its safer for the child's identity if people do not have any proof (from Ned) that Lyanna and the KG (especially all 3!) are directly connected.
 
Note too that there is no evidence Wylla claims to be Jon's mother.Only that Ned Dayne and Jon are milk brothers.
Ned rides in to Starfall with Dawn, baby Jon and Wylla, Starfall thinks Wylla is Jon's mum. She doesn't need to ever claim it, or deny it.

 

My friend, it is always good to read your thoughts, but on this we disagree. I would put it differently. I don't think the quote by Yandel is a "continuity error." If you are right, then Ran can tell us and it will be fixed in a future edition. I think, however, it is simple, straightforward, and very strong evidence that Ned did not make a secret of the fact he and his companions fought and killed Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the tower. We know this be the truth, and the fact that Yandel knows it should tell us just how widespread the knowledge of this event is in Westeros. If Ned was hiding this fact from everyone else, he would hardly have let it slip to an obscure historian wanting to write a history for Robert. A very strange way for Ned to tell Robert of these men's deaths some fourteen plus years after the fact. Not that I think that is what you're saying, but that would be the effect if Ned only let Yandel know.

 

No, as I said, there is a whole list of people Ned would need to tell before Yandel, if he ever even knew of the man or his upcoming history of the rebellion. I doubt Ned did, or that Ned is his source. No, I think this is just a case of Ned having told others and the news having spread in the intervening years to the point this is widely known among any who look into the history of the immediate aftermath of the sack and the early days of Robert's reign. After all it not only makes sense that Ned would tell Robert, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and the families of the dead men as part of his duty to his king, his fellow rebel commanders, and his loyal vassals, but it also - and here again we differ - makes sense he would tell these people this information in order to hide Jon's identity, if he is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why? because these are fairly easy facts to verify and don't really have an impact on people's understanding of who Jon is.

 

If we look at what Varys, or any other curious person such as a Tywin Lannister,  would do to look into Ned's story, the first thing to do is to follow Ned's footsteps from the day he leaves Storm's End to the day he day he returns with Jon. The ruins of the tower, and the cairns of the dead are there for anyone to find. If Ned leaves out these obviously important events he calls into question why he does so and what really happened at the tower. If he tells the truth - up to a point - especially a version that agrees with what Ned knows are Robert's views of Rhaegar, his kidnapping of Lyanna, and his holding her by force from being where she should be - by Robert's side - then all the physical evidence at the tower and Ned's story are in sync without a word of Jon. There is nothing to prove Ned is lying. On the other hand, if he doesn't account for the evidence at the tower, Ned is easily branded a liar. So, it is Ned's interest to tell Robert and the others that he fought a battle with Hightower, Dayne, and Whent where he found Lyanna being held and they refused to turn her over to him. Besides being the smartest and best way to hide Jon's parentage, it is also the way we see Ned lie. He tells as much of the truth as he can without divulging what he must keep secret.

 

If Ned finds the newborn Jon at the tower - as I believe, or if Jon has been taken after his birth at the tower to Starfall - as Ran and others have suggested in the past, then we have the point where a cover story, or to put it bluntly - a lie, must be developed and it must be convincing. And this is why I believe Ned has to have told the truth to the Daynes. He must have their help in keeping Wylla safe from those who might want to question her forcefully, and to allow it to be put out that she is Jon's mother. If Varys sends his people to follow Ned's travels, someone will end up in Starfall asking questions, and they must get the right answers from both Wylla and the Daynes just to start with. Obviously Ned can't control that from Winterfell. We can speculate why the Daynes do what they do, but not that they aren't critical in a cover story if one exists.

 

One last point about Yandel before I stop. Every point of view has it's bias, and Yandel is no different. He is a scholar trying to have his work read and accepted by the king(s) of his time. That much seems obvious. There are also some obvious false statements we as readers can easily see through. The rumors he passes on about Aerys's or Elia's possible roles in the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon are both certainly examples of false and biased statements from Yandel. I'd submit every point of view in the series has examples of biased and false statements as well. To therefore single out Yandel's writings as total propaganda or lies is just nonsense. Much of the facts of his history are just that. Facts we can verify from other sources, and new ones we have no reason to question. This simple statement by Yandel about the death of Ser Arthur and his sworn brothers, facts we know are true, fall into the first category of things verified from other sources. To refuse to accept it just because it doesn't fit a preconceived theory that is bothered by this character knowing what happened makes no sense to me. Let's adjust the theories to fit the evidence, not the other way around.

[corbon]

My friend, it is always good to read your thoughts, but on this we disagree.

No problem with plain ole disagreement.
Its the blatant misuse of data to argue a position I hate, and you don't do that.
 

I would put it differently. I don't think the quote by Yandel is a "continuity error." If you are right, then Ran can tell us and it will be fixed in a future edition. I think, however, it is simple, straightforward, and very strong evidence that Ned did not make a secret of the fact he and his companions fought and killed Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the tower. We know this be the truth, and the fact that Yandel knows it should tell us just how widespread the knowledge of this event is in Westeros. If Ned was hiding this fact from everyone else, he would hardly have let it slip to an obscure historian wanting to write a history for Robert. A very strange way for Ned to tell Robert of these men's deaths some fourteen plus years after the fact. Not that I think that is what you're saying, but that would be the effect if Ned only let Yandel know.

 
Of course, thats the point. It Yandel really does know, then Varys, Tywin, Littlefinger and anyone who gives a shit knows.
 
And I just can't buy that none of them have even a sniff of R+L=J if they know that the 3KG were all together with Lyanna at the ToJ.
 

No, as I said, there is a whole list of people Ned would need to tell before Yandel, if he ever even knew of the man or his upcoming history of the rebellion. I doubt Ned did, or that Ned is his source. No, I think this is just a case of Ned having told others and the news having spread in the intervening years to the point this is widely known among any who look into the history of the immediate aftermath of the sack and the early days of Robert's reign. After all it not only makes sense that Ned would tell Robert, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and the families of the dead men as part of his duty to his king, his fellow rebel commanders, and his loyal vassals, but it also - and here again we differ - makes sense he would tell these people this information in order to hide Jon's identity, if he is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why? because these are fairly easy facts to verify and don't really have an impact on people's understanding of who Jon is.

 
I don't buy Ned making up detailed cover stories either when all he has to do is stay silent and let others do the work of making misinterpretations and assuming they figured out what happened (wrongly) for him.
 
And we simply disagree that people knowing the KG were guarding Lyanna at the ToJ don't have an impact on their thoughts about Jon.
 
Heck, just knowing the three KG were together would start my suspicions arising. What were they doing so important, all three of them in one place, a nothing place, especiall when they didn't even start out together? Must be something really important... What could be that important? What could be that important during a civil war that is being lost?
OTOH if you just have Dayne alone, and the other two completely in a void of data, there's no immediate hint of anything suspicious or important.
 

If we look at what Varys, or any other curious person such as a Tywin Lannister,  would do to look into Ned's story, the first thing to do is to follow Ned's footsteps from the day he leaves Storm's End to the day he day he returns with Jon. The ruins of the tower, and the cairns of the dead are there for anyone to find. If Ned leaves out these obviously important events he calls into question why he does so and what really happened at the tower. If he tells the truth - up to a point - especially a version that agrees with what Ned knows are Robert's views of Rhaegar, his kidnapping of Lyanna, and his holding her by force from being where she should be - by Robert's side - then all the physical evidence at the tower and Ned's story are in sync without a word of Jon. There is nothing to prove Ned is lying. On the other hand, if he doesn't account for the evidence at the tower, Ned is easily branded a liar. So, it is Ned's interest to tell Robert and the others that he fought a battle with Hightower, Dayne, and Whent where he found Lyanna being held and they refused to turn her over to him. Besides being the smartest and best way to hide Jon's parentage, it is also the way we see Ned lie. He tells as much of the truth as he can without divulging what he must keep secret.

 
I think that the difficulty of 'following Ned's footsteps' is vastly underestimated by some here.
 
I think also the interest in doing so is also vastly overestimated. There just isn't anything to be interested in, no real pointers to start someone wanting to dig their teeth in that hard.
 
If Ned says nothing about anyone (obviously he's told Robert a little about Lyanna) you have three simple stories, each with a satisfactory solution/conclusion and nothing worth investigating.
1. Ned went south and found Lyanna dead or dying, returning with her bones.
2. Somewhere in the south (perhaps near Starfall?) he found Arthur Dayne and killed him, losing several friends doing so. Then he returned Dawn to the Daynes.
3. At Starfall he took away his bastard son Jon, resulting in Ashara to kill herself.
 
None of those have any reason to be suspicious or to be deeply investigated. All are created by Ned's known actions and the stories formed around them, not by Ned's own words. Its so very very simple.
 

If Ned finds the newborn Jon at the tower - as I believe, or if Jon has been taken after his birth at the tower to Starfall - as Ran and others have suggested in the past, then we have the point where a cover story, or to put it bluntly - a lie, must be developed and it must be convincing. And this is why I believe Ned has to have told the truth to the Daynes. He must have their help in keeping Wylla safe from those who might want to question her forcefully, and to allow it to be put out that she is Jon's mother. If Varys sends his people to follow Ned's travels, someone will end up in Starfall asking questions, and they must get the right answers from both Wylla and the Daynes just to start with. Obviously Ned can't control that from Winterfell. We can speculate why the Daynes do what they do, but not that they aren't critical in a cover story if one exists.

 
But its all unnecessary. There is no reason for anyone to investigate anything if he says as little as possible. As it stands, without saying anything, the Daynes are grateful for the return of Dawn and believe Wylla is Jon's mother because Ned turned up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow - or the senior Daynes are already in the know and as Targaryen (and Rhaegar) supporters don't want to expose Jon anyway.
Even if anyone does investigate then Wylla and/or the Daynes can lie (or for the Daynes, tell the truth as they know it, for most of them) that Wylla is the mother, which is in their interest covering for Rhaegar's son Jon anyway. Neither Lyanna nor the other 2 KG have any need to come into it.
 
Note that Wylla is the mother is not the widely accepted understanding in Westeros. Winterfell/Catelyn thinks thinks the mother was Ashara, and so does Cersei (who is perhaps the best indication on 'widely known' we have in this case, as a truly independent third party). Only Starfall (who knows Ashara was not the mother and that Ned rode in with Wylla nursing Jon) and Robert (who probably can bring himself to believe that precious-honour Ned could maybe 'slip up' for a bit with a peasant, but never with a noble maiden, and/or would never have missed Ned shtupping a dornish noblewoman during the rebellion but could have missed a peasant girl) think Wylla was the mother. Wylla is Jon's mother is not Ned's story, let alone 'cover story'. He just lets Robert (and Starfall) believe that - probably Robert made the assumption the first time it came up as well as the time we saw.
 

One last point about Yandel before I stop. Every point of view has it's bias, and Yandel is no different. He is a scholar trying to have his work read and accepted by the king(s) of his time. That much seems obvious. There are also some obvious false statements we as readers can easily see through. The rumors he passes on about Aerys's or Elia's possible roles in the murders of Rhaenys and Aegon are both certainly examples of false and biased statements from Yandel. I'd submit every point of view in the series has examples of biased and false statements as well. To therefore single out Yandel's writings as total propaganda or lies is just nonsense. Much of the facts of his history are just that. Facts we can verify from other sources, and new ones we have no reason to question. This simple statement by Yandel about the death of Ser Arthur and his sworn brothers, facts we know are true, fall into the first category of things verified from other sources. To refuse to accept it just because it doesn't fit a preconceived theory that is bothered by this character knowing what happened makes no sense to me. Let's adjust the theories to fit the evidence, not the other way around.

 

Oh I agree. This isn't about Yandel's unreliability, its about what is in Ned's interest and Ned's style of doing things. And I think its easier to reconcile an authorial mistake in continuity (not Yandel, but in forgetting that Yandel doesn't necessarily have all the same data we do) than reconcile Ned changing his style so completely, and unnecessarily, markedly increasing the risks he is taking in doing so, and everyone else in the series being frikken morons for not putting 2 and 2 together to at least be suspicious about 4.
This is especially so knowing that the only way Yandel can 'know' this information is if Ned (or HR) blabbed it. If it could have been independently arrived at without Ned talking, then it wouldn't be a problem. But it can't. The only reliable source here is Ned/HR and they have no reason to talk and a big reason not too, and the character's so far, to keep secrets they want kept.

I'm not arguing either, that its impossible Ned told anyone anything. Just that its the most likely solution. The only thing out of place, and its a little thing easily slipped up on, in that case is Yandel knowing about the three KG.
If Ned tells more, to me there is plenty out of place. You have to explain why people have no suspicion, even suspicious people. You have to explain why Ned talks when he doesn't need to, why he uses a creative approach instead of his characterful silent approach we see later. Frankly, the explanations given for these things just don;t cut the mustard for me so far. On that we can agree to disagree.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As we keep finding out, though, Yandel is not very accurate. The night that her betrothal was announced Lyanna told Ned that Robert would not change his nature (fathering bastard children) even if he loved her, while at Winterfell. Ned was fostered at the Eyrie, and Mya is born very near the time of Harrenhal Tourney. It would not make sense for Ned to travel during the winter to Winterfell, and then back to the Eyrie to come to Harrenhal from the Eyrie, thus it must be after the tourney that he travels to Winterfell. Perhaps we will find out that all of the Starks wintered at Winterfell. There was one SSM that mentioned after winter Brandon responded to Littlefinger's challenge, but it quickly disappeared. ;)

ETA Since the World Book has confirmed that there was a harsh winter after Harrenhal, the SSM may reappear.

But if Ned travelled to Winterfell after the tourney to arrange the betrothal, his return to the Eyrie would have been during winter as well, no?

 

A question, why would Yandel feel the need to lie about the length of the betrothal? Whose favor could he possibly gain by saying that Robert and Lyanna had been betrothed for a quite some time, if they hadn't been betrothed yet? 

 

 

In addition, it seems to me that Ned was, at the time of Harrenhal, no longer being truly fostered at the Eyrie

 

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

 

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

 

Coincidentally, Ned turned 16 in 279 AC, so that might even give him a motif to return to Winterfell that year.

 

In addition, we know there are tourneys held during winter, so why would it be unlikely to travel during winter?

 

 

I find it a bit of odd reasoning to say that, in 2 years time, it would be too much for Ned to travel from the Eyrie to Winterfell to the Eyrie and then on to Harrenhal, but at the same time say that it wouldn't be too much to travel, in a time span of 1 year, most of which was a harsh winter, from the Eyrie to Harrenhal to Winterfell back to the Eyrie.  That's almost the same distance, in much more harsher conditions, in much less time.

[Consigliere]

Ever since someone pointed out the similarities between Alys Karstark and Lyanna, I have had my suspicions :-)

 

Lyanna engineering the 'abduction'? Maybe. I still remain unconvinced that Rhaegar initially set out with the intention of capturing Lyanna. I think that the Jon/Ygritte situation is supposed to give us some insight into the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. Jon sets out on an unrelated mission but stumbles upon Ygritte and her group and ends up 'stealing' her. Neither party planned for this; it was just something that happened.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

Lyanna engineering the 'abduction'? Maybe. I still remain unconvinced that Rhaegar initially set out with the intention of capturing Lyanna. I think that the Jon/Ygritte situation is supposed to give us some insight into the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. Jon sets out on an unrelated mission but stumbles upon Ygritte and her group and ends up 'stealing' her. Neither party planned for this; it was just something that happened.

Since the World Book came out with the news that Rhaegar went into the Riverlands originally, it has been suggested that he went to visit the Ghost of High Heart, after receiving the news that Elia could not give birth to the third head.

So it would be quite possible that Rhaegar initially set out to figure out how to fullfill the "the dragon has three heads" part of the prophecy.

[Consigliere]

Since the World Book came out with the news that Rhaegar went into the Riverlands originally, it has been suggested that he went to visit the Ghost of High Heart, after receiving the news that Elia could not give birth to the third head.

So it would be quite possible that Rhaegar initially set out to figure out how to fullfill the "the dragon has three heads" part of the prophecy.

 

Lord Varys mentioned this before. I think this is a plausible scenario.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

Lord Varys mentioned this before. I think this is a plausible scenario.

Ah, ok. Couldn't remember who had mentioned it before, all I could recall was that it had been on this thread.

 

I agree. The scenario sounds quite plausible.

[UnmaskedLurker]

corbon/sfdanny/to whomever else it may concern:

 

I am not sure why the issue of whether the Yandel comment is a continuity error has become an issue. I actually don't think it is -- but don't think it has to be given corbon's larger point and I am not sure why corbon keeps suggesting that it is an "error" in continuity.  Here is the quote:

 

 He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

 

 

Based on this quote, all it states is first, that Ned killed Arthur in "single combat" and returned Dawn. Well, we know that it was not "single" combat, but close enough. Ned had help from Howland, but he did kill AD and return Dawn. We also can be pretty sure that it is common knowledge in Westeros that Ned killed AD because his return of Dawn was fairly public.

 

Now what Yandel does not say is that AD was with Lyanna or died at a specific tower (tower or joy or otherwise). So the suggestion that some seem to have made that Yandel's reference to the KG being killed guarding Lyanna simply is not in the text. There is no mention of Lyanna in that part of the text or any mention of where they died.

 

So if there is a "continuity" error, the only possible information would be that AD was with his "sworn brothers" which likely would be understood by anyone "in the know" to be Whent and Hightower. But why wouldn't people assume that Dayne, Whent and Hightower were together? I think it is common knowledge that Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he "fell upon" Lyanna and went South -- so they would be expected to be together as they were gone together for a long time. People know that Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar -- and that Rhaegar returned -- so a logical assumption would be that Hightower found Rhaegar and stayed with Dayne and Whent. So just based on what we know to be fairly common knowledge among many people in Westeros, the assumption that the 3 KG stayed together would be fairly logical,

 

I think it would not be a "secret" that Dayne died with Whent and Hightower. People don't know exactly where or under what precise circumstances (other than Ned killing Arthur). That is the key. But the notion that somehow Ned kept it a secret that Whent and Hightower also died with Dayne seems unlikely. Even if Ned keeps quiet on the issue, people will naturally assume they were together. People know that none of them came back -- so if they split up, why and for what purpose? And then how did Whent and Hightower die? Splitting them up accomplishes nothing for Ned. So I think Yandel simply is reporting what is generally assumed -- the 3 KG stayed together, for some reason, and then were killed by the group that went down South with Ned. 

 

Might someone like Varys wonder why 3 KG stayed South when Rhaegar came back to KL? Sure. But that apparent "plot hole" is a problem no matter what Ned says. Everyone knows that none of the 3 KG came back with Rhaegar and that all 3 were killed South of the war and never were part of any big battle at Trident or KL. What makes the the behavior more understandable, most likely, is the assumption that the 3 KG had little access to information update.  People likely assume that the 3 KG did not have knowledge, prior to confronting Ned, of the death of Aerys (and possible Rhaegar) and the sending of Viserys to DS. As long as people assume that information never got to them before their "final battle" there is less suspicion as to why they stayed South. But there is no getting around the issue that someone like Varys is going to wonder why (and how) Rhaegar kept the 3 KG South of the war. That fact would be known no matter whether Arthur Dayne dies alone or with Whent and Hightower. And that fact is the one that really should raise suspicions.

 

So while normally I find corbon's analysis "spot on," in this case I don't think there is a "continuity error" at all. I think all that Yandel states is what is commonly believed -- that for some reason the 3 KG stayed South -- maybe to guard Lyanna or maybe for some other mission that Rhaegar sent them on, I really don't know and Yandel gives no hint as to what people believe on that issue. 

 

As to why no one has "connected the dots" to conclude that Jon is really the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Perhaps some have and are just keeping their mouths shut because they have nothing to gain at this point by disclosure. Or maybe GRRM simply write the story in a way that for whatever reason, no one ever thought hard enough about the issue to figure it out. Part of the key to the second possibility is that GRRM seems to emphasize that Ned is so honorable that if he admits to a "slip" regarding Jon, everyone automatically believes him because it seems inconceivable for him to lie about such a personal failing that hurts his personal honor so much.

 

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but maybe Jon really is older than Robb and Ned reduced his age by a few weeks (or more) for two purposes: (i) to avoid any concern that Jon some day could have a stronger claim to Winterfell than Robb (not that even a legitimized bastard would come before a younger "true born" but it would create more of a potential claim) and (ii) to make sure that the "conception" of Jon was after his marriage to Cat so that all of the focus would be on Ned's unfaithfulness (which would not be the case if conception happened before he married Cat) and divert attention from the clues of Jon's true parentage (as people are less likely to think Ned is lying if his admission is so self-damaging).

[IceFire125]

 

Lyanna engineering the 'abduction'? Maybe. I still remain unconvinced that Rhaegar initially set out with the intention of capturing Lyanna. I think that the Jon/Ygritte situation is supposed to give us some insight into the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. Jon sets out on an unrelated mission but stumbles upon Ygritte and her group and ends up 'stealing' her. Neither party planned for this; it was just something that happened.

Since the World Book came out with the news that Rhaegar went into the Riverlands originally, it has been suggested that he went to visit the Ghost of High Heart, after receiving the news that Elia could not give birth to the third head.

So it would be quite possible that Rhaegar initially set out to figure out how to fullfill the "the dragon has three heads" part of the prophecy.

 

And the third incident would attribute relating Jon's situation with Alys (running away from her undesirable situation, marriage), begging him to help her.  Jon resolve her problem with marriage to a different man.

 

Martin carefully planted the situation of Jon and Alys to give us hints of what happened in Rhaegar's mind.  

 

He respected and thought this Stark girl was worthy to be QoLaB.  But after receiving news about Elia, he must have another trigger, either dreams (via Bloodraven influencing him that a girl will need his help), visiting/came in contact with the GoHH (giving him hints of signs that TPTWP was not yet born--meaning Aegon is not it), leading him to read/search for more information of scrolls after scrolls (maybe finding the "Pact of Ice and Fire") or combination of all of these together... 

 

That when he saw Lyanna, it was the sign or... "promise" he saw in her, that TPTWP will be birthed by her.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

And the third incident would attribute relating Jon's situation with Alys (running away from her undesirable situation, marriage), begging him to help her.  Jon resolve her problem with marriage to a different man.

 

Martin carefully planted the situation of Jon and Alys to give us hints of what happened in Rhaegar's mind.  

 

He respected and thought this Stark girl was worthy to be QoLaB.  But after receiving news about Elia, he must have another trigger, either dreams (via Bloodraven influencing him that a girl will need his help), visiting/came in contact with the GoHH (giving him hints of signs that TPTWP was not yet born--meaning Aegon is not it), leading him to read/search for more information of scrolls after scrolls (maybe finding the "Pact of Ice and Fire") or combination of all of these together... 

 

That when he saw Lyanna, it was the sign or... "promise" he saw in her, that TPTWP will be birthed by her.

:agree: Looks like you are also in the "Rhaegar changed his mind" camp regarding who would be TPTWP. BearQueen87 will be pleased.