The implications of the Paris attacks

[Altherion]

I don't know how this will be dealt with, but at the very least, it's going to become a lot harder to get anyone to accept Muslim refugees. Poland has already renounced the quotas:

Poland’s new government won’t accept migrant quotas imposed by the European Union, as the terror attacks in France have exposed the weakness in the bloc, the nation’s future minister for European affairs said.

“In the wake of the tragic events in Paris, Poland doesn’t see the political possibilities to implement a decision on the relocation of refugees,” Konrad Szymanski was quoted as saying on Wpolityce.pl website on Saturday. “The attacks mean there’s a need for an even deeper revision of the European policy regarding the migrant crisis.”

In France, I suspect that FN will become even stronger than it is now (and it is already surprisingly strong). I thought all the talk of Le Pen's chances of winning a presidential election was a fairly large exaggeration, but now I'm not so sure.

[DaveSumm]

I'm not sure what the relevance is of the possibility of them being refugees? That may be how some happened to get to France, but so what? Terrorists with clean criminal records can still travel from country to country can't they? Would this plausibly not have happened if France hadn't taken in migrants?

[A Prince of Dorne]

No thanks on 10,000 refugees. Sorry. We'll take in 9,990 good people and 10 people will f*ck it up for them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

APOD,

And by refusing them asylum radicalize an even larger portion of the Muslim population thereby strenghting the Daesh.  Which is why they are staging attacks like this in the first place.  Is playing their game the way they want us to play really a good idea?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

APOD,

And by refusing them asylum radicalize an even larger portion of the Muslim population thereby strengthening the Daesh.  Which is why they are staging attacks like this in the first place.  Is playing their game the way they want us to play really a good idea?

[Chaircat Meow]

APOD,

And by refusing them asylum radicalize an even larger portion of the Muslim population thereby strenghting the Daesh.  Which is why they are staging attacks like this in the first place.  Is playing their game the way they want us to play really a good idea?

This truly is A grade stupidity on your part, Scot. 

First, Muslims don't become radicalized because we refuse their compatriots asylum. Secondly, Daesh certainly aren't staging attacks like the ones we've just seen because muslims have been denied asylum. When have they ever claimed anything like this? Third, if our current muslim populations, and the muslim refugees/migrants who may settle in Europe, are the kind of people who go on killing sprees because their co-religionists are not allowed to live in Europe (your implication - not my claim) then we certainly don't want any more of them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HMM,

You are completely missing my point.  The Daesh are already radicalized.   They want the West to deny asylum to those who seek it to force those seeking refuge in the West to become radicalized.  If we push away those fleeing the Daesh... where do they have that they can go?

[Chaircat Meow]

HMM,

You are completely missing my point.  The Daesh are already radicalized.   They want the West to deny asylum to those who seek it to force those seeking refuge in the West to become radicalized.  If we push away those felling the Daesh... where do they have that they can go?

There's a pattern in this thread. Everything other than just carrying on exactly as we are apparently involves doing precisely what ISIS wants. Are you privy to the Caliph's strategy now. Here's a thought: maybe ISIS wants more muslims in Europe to gradually change the culture/influence the elections, and provide recruiting grounds in western countries.

I fail to understand your issue here anyway. There's always a chance people caught up in ISIS lands will join up to protect themselves, and may genuinely buy into ISIS in an ideological sense. So? Unless we evacuate everyone in that area (which is not even possible given ISIS control and many other things) ISIS will have the potential to swell its ranks like that.   

[Raja]

Tmaybe ISIS wants more muslims in Europe to gradually change the culture/influence the elections,

Is that genuinely what you think? That the migrants, under the so called influence of ISIS, will try and change the culture/ elections of the European states that offer them asylum? Or are you being disingenuous here. I can't really tell. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HMM,

Now people are fleeing from the Daesh.  If we make them too afraid to flee what options do they have left?

[Altherion]

 The Daesh are already radicalized.   They want the West to deny asylum to those who seek it to force those seeking refuge in the West to become radicalized.  If we push away those felling the Daesh... where do they have that they can go?

They can go back to where they came from or to Muslim countries  -- it doesn't really matter as long as they are not here. It's not obvious that this increases the chance of radicalizing them relative to them coming to Europe. We have already seen this play out in miniature. People whose cultures are radically different from European ones come to Europe with very little money and no acceptable credentials. This necessarily puts them in the lower class and because they have no established network and they look and act different, they are in some sense in the lowest part of the lower class. The adults are grateful for refuge, but the same is not true of the subsequent generation: all they know is that they're stuck at a low social status and their chances of climbing up are small (this is true of the lower classes in general, but it's especially true for these people).

That paragraph was not hypothetical -- this is what has already happened in France, Sweden and other places. Now, imagine what will happen when there are many more Muslims all coming at the same time, Europe is still recovering from an unrelated economic crisis and there is constant war in the Middle East and periodic terrorist attacks in European cities. We might not even need to wait for the second generation this time. If the migrants are denied entrance, they may become radicalized, but at least these radicals won't be in Europe, with European travel documents (i.e. full access to basically any European country) and the extensive set of rights accorded to them by European law.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Which, if true, only worked because of slow information traffic and ridiculous treaty protocols.

Not to mention that it didn't really help Serbia.

They killed a Crown Prince who was in favor of giving Slavs in the Empire more political rights in order to stoke Slavic separatism. The ensuing conflagration was probably a bit bigger than they were expecting, but they got to form Yugoslavia afterwards, so it at least worked in the medium term.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

A fraternity brother of mine just accused me of "Polluting" his facebook thread for having the temerity to say expelling all Muslims might serve the Daesh's purposes rather than making the West safer.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

A fraternity brother of mine just accused me of "Polluting" his facebook thread for having the temerity to say expelling all Muslims might serve the Daesh's purposes rather than making the West safer.

That's a paddlin'. You have to know your audience, Ser Scot. 

[Mr Fixit]

This fight won't be won in Paris or in any other European city, but in the Middle East. Finding a solution there is the only thing that truly matters. Of course, I can't see much changing there in the foreseeable future. Chaos continues, local countries are either failed states or are extremist ideology havens/financiers, while the outside factors -- the West primarily, but not exclusively -- continually back all the wrong horses, and have been doing so for decades. So yeah, welcome to the brave new world. We're not gonna like it.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I'm not comfortable with the U.S.'s obsession with overthrowing Assad when the clear focus should've been defeating the extremist all along. I would also count my view as one who feels the Obama regime has been backing the wrong horse, once again.

Arakan's posts seem to have the right of it. Kerry sounds like he's hell bent on fighting the last centuries wars, perhaps a stronger effort to ally with former enemies may be required to fight new enemies.

Domestically, RICO style prosecutions, and covert infiltrations will be needed to stop cell groups that are already in the West. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is a big difference between intentions and real consequences. What this attacks want is to make a separation between "we" and them", with Occident as "them". If "them" start to refuse refugees, then "we" proved a point: "they" are the enemy, "they" won't help you. "we" do. Join "us".

 

 

[Seli]

I certainly don't hope for anything resembling genocide, but it has become difficult for me to continue to sit here and agree with this type of reaction. Something in the water is rotten and needs to be addressed. I disagree with the right-hand extreme reaction that just says "bomb the whole area into submission", but I also disagree with the left-hand reaction that feels disturbingly like defensiveness and typically says "do nothing." 

It is not doing nothing, which won't work, it is accepting the people who live here. Accepting the people who live elsewhere. And use some surgical interventions to cut off the head of some very dangerous organizations. Although even the latter ought to be done with care lest we make things even worse by continuing to give normal people even more reasons to hate us.

[Hayyoth]

FNR,

That could be by design.  The Daesh want all Muslims to be oppressed by the West to force them back into the Daesh fold.  An over-reaction to Muslim immigrants plays in favor of the Daesh.

Grasping at straws

The holder of a Syrian passport found near the body of one of the gunmen who died in Friday night's attacks in Paris passed through Greece in October, a Greek minister said, and another suspected attacker was thought to have entered Europe the same way.

"The holder of the passport passed through the island of Leros on Oct. 3, 2015, where he was identified according to EU rules," Greece's deputy minister in charge of police, Nikos Toskas, said in a statement.

It gets better

Greek police were also asked by French authorities to check on the holder of an Egyptian passport that was apparently found near the body of another attacker, the police source said

Unfuckingbelievable

[The Mance]

 

Grasping at straws

It gets better

Unfuckingbelievable

Also this!

 

Any identity documents and fingerprint records would have to be matched with the remains of the actual attackers to establish whether they passed through Greece posing as refugees, or perhaps bought or stole passports along the way.

So, you know, the passport might not actually mean anything.