Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

[Davrum]

13 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

I think it depends how they're handled. It can work for bad guys when the point is to show the inexorable advance of the bad guy. The drama comes from the fact that the protagonists have no option but to run. It wouldn't really work on a large scale though, it has to be fairly intimate, like Vader's entrance to Echo Base.

The entrance into Echo Base is exactly what I'm talking about. (The boarding of Tantive VI is similar, although different since its his introduction.) In each case he comes in once his minions have done the dirty work and bosses like a boss. He doesn't draw his weapon or use the Force in either scene, which has the effect of presenting him as even more formidable than if he had. The fact he dominates even without his special abilities shows him not just as a power player, but as a super power player.

Special abilities are more dramatically powerful when saved for special opponents.

[Maia]

I disagree. I want Vader to come after the rebels like a terminator/xenomorph and reach deep into his bag of tricks to dispose of those trying to impede him. Tension would come not from wondering about his survival, but about that of the rebel characters and _how_ they'd manage that feat. The more terrifying he is, the more gratifying it would be when/if some of them succeed. And for the first time it is wide open whether any protagonists actually will survive. 

I also loved him personally shooting down all those rebel fighters in ANH and hope that we'll see his Baron von Richthofen side again in all the  glory of modern SFX. It has been too long since last good space battle/dog fight on the big screen.

And speaking of which - what powers would you folks like to see Vader display? IMHO, he should have force jump / force  slowfall (which he already seemed to have during his duel with Luke in RoTJ) - not to flip around during the fights, but for a chilling moment during the chase when the protagonists being on a different level  with access up and down destroyed would think that they have gotten far enough ahead to reach safety... just for him to jump after them. I'd like to see more interesting telekinesis. That truth serum that didn't work on Leia to actually do it's job on somebody. For rebels to blow Vader into the vacuum of space, only for him to be merely slightly inconvenienced by it...

[Kalbear]

If you like your Vader to be an unstoppable force of awesome check out the Siege of Lothal episode of Star Wars Rebels. He continually outplans, out thinks, out fights and singlehandedly destroys an entire rebel flotilla. It's pretty awesome.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Davrum said:

The entrance into Echo Base is exactly what I'm talking about. (The boarding of Tantive VI is similar, although different since its his introduction.) In each case he comes in once his minions have done the dirty work and bosses like a boss. He doesn't draw his weapon or use the Force in either scene, which has the effect of presenting him as even more formidable than if he had. The fact he dominates even without his special abilities shows him not just as a power player, but as a super power player.

Special abilities are more dramatically powerful when saved for special opponents.

Thing is though, there needs to be a reason he has such an intimidating presence in the first place. And I feel like seeing him demonstrate how much power he has is a great way to achieve that.

[ab aeterno]

I hope Vader brings some of this stuff.

 

Of course, the message is somewhat undermined when you continue his last sentence... "there are only approximately 3 billion more pieces floating around in the new asteroid field."

[Corvinus85]

I'm not sure why we need to have new TIE fighter for a story that takes place just before ANH. Unless these TIE fighters are special, used only by commandos, like those Dark Troopers they mentioned, and then the rebels blow them up, they should not be in the movie.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Davrum said:

Also, battles where one combatant is effectively untouchable are dramatically inert. Nice moneyshots maybe, but dull storytelling. Without stakes there is no drama, so invincible characters are boring.

 

When the heroes are untouchable, sure, but there's a reason several iconic villains, from the Nazgul to the Agents in the first Matrix, are presented as essentially invincible from the protag's point of view, at least initially. It gives a sense of inexorable pressure. I can totally see a relentless Darth Vader working similarly.

Eta: he shouldn't be in it all the time, minions should definitely be doing much of the legwork, but it'd be great to see him in some action.

[Davrum]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Thing is though, there needs to be a reason he has such an intimidating presence in the first place. And I feel like seeing him demonstrate how much power he has is a great way to achieve that.

Commanding marauding battalions of stormtroopers, AT-ATs and squadrons of fighters is pretty darn intimidating. I'm not saying he shouldn't be Force choking fools, just saying he should save that for those who deserve it - the leaders of opposing forces - not cheapen them by using them on those who are beneath his attention. That's the ultimate in intimidation.

Also, in some ways these powers are more dramatic when used sparingly. The value of scarcity, etc. In a similar way to how Jaws wouldn't be better if we saw more actual carnage before the main event, I feel the cinematic spectacle of Vader's abilities holds more power if we're left to anticipate them.

[Davrum]

35 minutes ago, Maia said:

I disagree. I want Vader to come after the rebels like a terminator/xenomorph and reach deep into his bag of tricks to dispose of those trying to impede him. Tension would come not from wondering about his survival, but about that of the rebel characters and _how_ they'd manage that feat. The more terrifying he is, the more gratifying it would be when some of them succeed. And for the first time it is actually wide open whether any protagonists actually will survive. 

I also loved him personally shooting down all those rebel fighters in ANH and hope that we'll see his Baron von Richthofen side again in all the  glory of modern SFX. It has been too long since last good space battle/dog fight on the big screen.

The flying I'm totally down with. He's a legendary pilot and we only see him in action once in the OT.

[Maia]

26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

If you like your Vader to be an unstoppable force of awesome check out the Siege of Lothal episode of Star Wars Rebels. He continually outplans, out thinks, out fights and singlehandedly destroys an entire rebel flotilla. It's pretty awesome.

Oh, yea, that's exactly what I'd like to see from him in the movie. Except that for once, he'd have no reason to let his prey escape, so he should be even more relentless.

[Davrum]

5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

When the heroes are untouchable, sure, but there's a reason several iconic villains, from the Nazgul to the Agents in the first Matrix, are presented as essentially invincible from the protag's point of view, at least initially. It gives a sense of inexorable pressure. I can totally see a relentless Darth Vader working similarly.

Eta: he shouldn't be in it all the time, minions should definitely be doing much of the legwork, but it'd be great to see him in some action.

This is fundamentally different, because we didn't know the Nazgul and Agents were invincible. We know in this film however, that Vader is absolutely unkillable.

There's simply no escaping that the protagonist's point of view is far from the only consideration in this case.

[Rhom]

44 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

If you like your Vader to be an unstoppable force of awesome check out the Siege of Lothal episode of Star Wars Rebels. He continually outplans, out thinks, out fights and singlehandedly destroys an entire rebel flotilla. It's pretty awesome.

I just saw that last weekend and that's exactly what comes to mind when I think of Vader being an unstoppable force of nature.

The fact that the Rebels didn't know who he was made it even better.  From the moment he lifted a burning AT-ST off his head with the force to the bit you reference where he takes out an entire elite squadron of A Wings and then disables a flotilla, every bit of that was awesome.   I'd love to see a version of it on the big screen.

Make him the ruthless enforcer he is hinted at.

[polishgenius]

2 minutes ago, Davrum said:

This is fundamentally different, because we didn't know the Nazgul and Agents were invincible. We know in this film however, that Vader is absolutely unkillable.

Different strokes I guess, but I don't think so. In neither case (nor in the case of the Terminator for example) is the primary tension mined from whether they can beat the enemy; it's whether they can get away. If anything for me knowing he will absolutely survive but the protagonists might not could actually increase the tension, to counter for the fact that we know for certain that they will succeed in their primary goal. 

[Davrum]

22 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Different strokes I guess, but I don't think so. In neither case (nor in the case of the Terminator for example) is the primary tension mined from whether they can beat the enemy; it's whether they can get away. If anything for me knowing he will absolutely survive but the protagonists might not could actually increase the tension, to counter for the fact that we know for certain that they will succeed in their primary goal. 

Sure, but I was talking in the context of battles, not pursuits. There's tension to be mined from chase scenes, but the natural path of these narratives is to a climactic showdown. Nazgul Bossman faces off with Eowyn and Merry, Agent Smith faces off with Neo, the Terminator with Sarah and Kyle. Vader in this film would have a different function. In some ways your description of it is of Vader as a force of nature. Heroes can't defeat tornadoes or tsunamis like they can defeat Nazguls, Agents and Terminators. So it's a fair point from that angle, but from a dramatic perspective I'd prefer to see a still-flawed Vader in battle than an unstoppable one.

Whatever the case, I just hope he saves his good stuff for the heroes and we don't see him wasting Force moves and lightsaber swipes on no stinkin' redshirts.

[Jon AS]

Isn't the plot of the film about stealing the Death Star plans (or at least the part of them that Kyle Katarn forgot to swipe...)?

Maybe the climax of the film will be more about who makes it out alive rather than about how the heroes defeat the bad guys. Vader could actually work really well here, I think.

[Davrum]

That's pretty much what I expect - an heroic last stand where one by one they lay down their lives just to have enough time to transmit the full plans. Haven't had an heroic last stand movie since 300 a decade ago have we?

[Corvinus85]

I fully expect Donnie Yen to play a Jedi-like character who will valiantly confront Vader to allow the others to escape at some point in the movie. 

[Astromech]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I fully expect Donnie Yen to play a Jedi-like character who will valiantly confront Vader to allow the others to escape at some point in the movie. 

And his character's name will be Kanan Jarrus.

[Corvinus85]

Just now, Astromech said:

And his character's name will be Kanan Jarrus.

No it will be Caleb Dume. 

[RumHam]

13 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I fully expect Donnie Yen to play a Jedi-like character who will valiantly confront Vader to allow the others to escape at some point in the movie. 

Agreed. I look forward to the ensuing lightsaber vs stick duel.