Batman and Superman IV: "Do you bleed?" "Only on the home release..." (Now with SPOILERS)

[drawkcabi]

I was debating with myself what would it take for me to see this in theaters. A Rotten Tomatoes score above 75%? 80%?

Well at least I won't have to worry about that now, I don't know even know if I want to see this when it comes out on DVD.

I am one of the biggest Superman fans there is and if someone had told a younger me there would be a BVS movie out and I wouldn't want to see it I would have said they were crazy.

Everything about this is depressing (depressing in a first world problem way at least). Everything I've seen of Batfleck makes me agree he won't be the problem in this. The problem is Snyder and WB/DC's belief that because Nolan's vision works so well for Batman they can just pound that square peg into all the round, triangular, star, and trapezoidal, holes of DC Comics stories and it will all work out. It won't.

And yeah, this just seems like the worst of all worlds. The movie will make enough money it won't derail the current WB/DC plans, possibly curtail it though, and we end up with a bad movie and no real hopes for good movies in the future.

The same torment of someone who would love to see a good Transformers movie.

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

The problem is Snyder and WB/DC's belief that because Nolan's vision works so well for Batman they can just pound that square peg into all the round, triangular, star, and trapezoidal, holes of DC Comics stories and it will all work out. It won't.

And yeah, this just seems like the worst of all worlds. The movie will make enough money it won't derail the current WB/DC plans, possibly curtail it though, and we end up with a bad movie and no real hopes for good movies in the future.

I think that everyone at WB knows that this movie SHOULD make an absolute killing.  I mean, superhero movies are raking in money, and you simply cannot get bigger than Batman vs Superman as your leads.  So if this movie ends up making less than 1 billion worldwide, then something went wrong.  There's no guarantee that DC and WB can fix those problems, but they aren't stupid enough to call that a win.

I am not the biggest comic book fan (particularly Superman), but I am incredibly uninterested in seeing this.  Once the previews revealed that it wasn't Batman vs Superman, but Batman vs Superman, plus Lex Luther, Wonder Woman and Doomsday, I knew this movie was going to be a bloated mess.  Plus, Zack Snyder sucks.  His visual style may work for 300 (which wasn't a very good comic to begin with) but Watchmen was a complete directing failure, and I expect this movie will be just as bad. 

[JGP]

At an all-in budget of approximately 400 million [or so I've read] I would be surprised if it wasn't considered a disappointment if BvS didn't cross the 1.5 billion mark. But, if it doesn't surpass 1 billion worldwide-- I'd hope at the very least that Warner would consider dumping Snyder for someone who actually has the vision to more properly bring this absolutely viable content to market.  

[Rhom]

18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I am not the biggest comic book fan (particularly Superman), but I am incredibly uninterested in seeing this.  Once the previews revealed that it wasn't Batman vs Superman, but Batman vs Superman, plus Lex Luther, Wonder Woman and Doomsday, I knew this movie was going to be a bloated mess.  Plus, Zack Snyder sucks.  His visual style may work for 300 (which wasn't a very good comic to begin with) but Watchmen was a complete directing failure, and I expect this movie will be just as bad. 

 

If I were doing this, I'd make this a Batman movie with Superman as a side character.  I really think the ideal set up for this movie would be the speculated original plot where you have Lex and Bruce working together for the good of humanity against the destructive alien.  Bats and Supes fight.  Bats has the big blue boyscout down and hurting.  Something happens in the middle of the fight that requires Bats to let Superman do his thing.  (A crashing airplane or some such that is beyond his ability.)  He recognizes that Supes isn't all bad, Lex gets angry or some such and Bats infiltrates Lexcorps using his Greatest Detective skills and finds the lab where they are experimenting on Zod's corpse.  The climax of the movie is Batman doing something to destroy the lab not knowing that Doomsday has already been moved.  (Have Lex show up in a post credits scene with a big tank in another lab and show something smashing against the glass... and oh yeah, he probably lost his hair in an explosion at Lexcorp.)  Throw in Diana at a socialite ball if you want, but no WW.

Now you've had a proper Superman movie.  A proper Batman movie.  You've introduced WW.  You've set up a realistic villain that the Justice League will need to fight.  Basically, you've done everything this movie seems to want to do without cramming it all in there.

 

[Rhom]

I was just thinking about the apparent plot of this movie being that Lex Luthor makes an evil clone of a Kryptonian...

My God... Its Superman IV all over again.   

[Maithanet]

21 minutes ago, Rhom said:

If I were doing this, I'd make this a Batman movie with Superman as a side character. 

The most important thing about making a Batman vs Superman movie is that the climax is a Batman vs Superman fight!  This seems so obvious it is almost laughable.  I feel like the buildup should be convincing the audience (and Batman) that he needs to go to the seemingly crazy step of fighting Superman.  Having Lex be manipulating Batman towards that goal would work, and could establish Lex as a real long term threat, which is also key.  (One area DC should definitely be shooting for is having superior villains to the cardboard rouges gallery that Marvel is trotting out.) 

You resolve the fight (without one of them getting killed) by having something happen that convinces Batman not to kill Superman, most likely Supes doing something potentially self sacrificing in his weakened state in order to save innocent people.  Your crashing plane thing could work, particularly if Lex was responsible for that too, and maybe he put some kryptonite in the plane to make sure it finishes the job?  End with Batman telling Superman he's changed his mind, but that he can't ignore how dangerous Supes is, and that he'll be watching. 

So yeah, that sounds pretty similar to what you've outlined. 

[Rhom]

Just now, Maithanet said:

The most important thing about making a Batman vs Superman movie is that the climax is a Batman vs Superman fight!  This seems so obvious it is almost laughable.  I feel like the buildup should be convincing the audience (and Batman) that he needs to go to the seemingly crazy step of fighting Superman.  Having Lex be manipulating Batman towards that goal would work, and could establish Lex as a real long term threat, which is also key.  (One area DC should definitely be shooting for is having superior villains to the cardboard rouges gallery that Marvel is tortting out.) 

You resolve the fight (without one of them getting killed) by having something happen that convinces Batman not to kill Superman, most likely Supes doing something potentially self sacrificing in his weakened state in order to save innocent people.  Your crashing plane thing could work, particularly if Lex was responsible for that too, and maybe he put some kryptonite in the plane to make sure it finishes the job?  End with Batman telling Superman he's changed his mind, but that he can't ignore how dangerous Supes is, and that he'll be watching. 

So yeah, that sounds pretty similar to what you've outlined. 

I think you could really ramp up the tension by having the "crashing plane" be readily apparent and Batman almost sacrifices everyone in the plane just to kill Superman and then comes to the startling conclusion that he is willing to sacrifice innocents in his pursuit of "justice."  Would rattle Bruce to the core with what he almost did.  But yes, I agree with you.

Somehow though, the overall point is that Doomsday doesn't belong in this movie!  Neither does Wonder Woman!

[The Unborn]

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

 It makes you realise what a good job Kevin Feige does, giving each film its own crew but keeping one eye on the overall vision and tone. 

I don't want to bash marvel movies, but I think I saw them all ever since Iron Man 1, and there is not a whole bunch of good movies in there. In my opinion Iron Man 1, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers 1 and Captain America 2 were the only good ones. Antman was decent, I thought, the rest was bleh.

 

 

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I think you could really ramp up the tension by having the "crashing plane" be readily apparent and Batman almost sacrifices everyone in the plane just to kill Superman and then comes to the startling conclusion that he is willing to sacrifice innocents in his pursuit of "justice."  Would rattle Bruce to the core with what he almost did.  But yes, I agree with you.

Somehow though, the overall point is that Doomsday doesn't belong in this movie!  Neither does Wonder Woman!

Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of Batman willingly sacrificing innocents for whatever plan he's hatched, that seems pretty anathema to my understanding of his character.  You could however have him think that he's killed Superman, only for Big Blue to climb out of whatever crater he was in and save the people after Batman was already unable to save them himself. 

[The BlackBear]

31 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I was just thinking about the apparent plot of this movie being that Lex Luthor makes an evil clone of a Kryptonian...

My God... Its Superman IV all over again.   

An evil genius who can't pronounce the word nuclear.

[denstorebog]

40% on RT. Not to invite another grudge match, but this is really a nail in the coffin for DC. Civil War comes out in a month, meaning that people will still be hating on BvS at that point, and probably praising CW all the more because of that unless it's a mess as well. These two movies are the high points of hype and hysteria for their respective fanbases, and it seems like at least one of them has now failed to deliver completely, at a point when DC really needed to deliver to keep the faith of their fans.

[drawkcabi]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of Batman willingly sacrificing innocents for whatever plan he's hatched, that seems pretty anathema to my understanding of his character.  You could however have him think that he's killed Superman, only for Big Blue to climb out of whatever crater he was in and save the people after Batman was already unable to save them himself. 

Yes!

And while he climbs out of that crater you hear the famous score "Da, da, da, da...da, da, da!"

I would stand up and cheer at a scene like that.

Batman is the best when he steps out of the shadows and you know he's going to deliver a badass take down. That's his thing. But while Superman fighting can be cool my favorite parts are when he's saving someone, that's his thing.

[ljkeane]

29 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

The most important thing about making a Batman vs Superman movie is that the climax is a Batman vs Superman fight!  This seems so obvious it is almost laughable. 

Really? I don't know. I mean we know they're ultimately going to decide that actually they're on the same side, it just seems like a fairly anticlimactic climax to me.

That's kind of the problem with Batman vs Superman idea for me, we know they're going to have to work it out so it doesn't seem too interesting.

[Tywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

The most important thing about making a Batman vs Superman movie is that the climax is a Batman vs Superman fight!  This seems so obvious it is almost laughable. 

Yup. Once the second trailer revealed that Bats v. Sups was going to be the climax of the second act I knew this movie was in trouble. This movie looks like it's going to be the rare example where splitting into two movies is actually totally justified. 

 

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Really? I don't know. I mean we know they're ultimately going to decide that actually they're on the same side, it just seems like a fairly anticlimactic climax to me.

That's kind of the problem with Batman vs Superman idea for me, we know they're going to have to work it out so it doesn't seem too interesting.

I mean, a Batman vs Superman smackdown where nothing else is going on is going to be dull, sure.  But couldn't you say the same thing about any fight?  I mean, you know that Iron Man isn't going to get killed by Iron Monger, but it was still interesting.  You have to execute it properly, but no, I do not think that the foregone conclusion of "they'll make up" is any less interesting than the foregone conclusion of "the hero kills the villain".

[Rhom]

Speaking of the fight being in the second act...

Watching the trailers, we obviously have multiple contacts between the two.

1) Superman interferes with Batman chase after awesome Bats vs random badguys fight in that warehouse.  Issues ultimatum "The Bat is dead."

2) Bats researches and shows up wearing Ironman armor.

Now, here's where it gets interesting to me... In all the scenes with Bats and Supes vs Doomsday, Bats is not wearing the Ironman suit.  So what happens that gets Bruce out of the suit and back into a fight scene with his regular old Bat outfit?

[Rhom]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I mean, a Batman vs Superman smackdown where nothing else is going on is going to be dull, sure.  But couldn't you say the same thing about any fight?  I mean, you know that Iron Man isn't going to get killed by Iron Monger, but it was still interesting.  You have to execute it properly, but no, I do not think that the foregone conclusion of "they'll make up" is any less interesting than the foregone conclusion of "the hero kills the villain".

Agreed.  And while I didn't necessarily mean for Bats to break character... I think a real decision where he realizes he almost cost the lives of innocents while trying to kill Supes would make for a big "Ah Ha!" moment.

17 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

Yes!

And while he climbs out of that crater you hear the famous score "Da, da, da, da...da, da, da!"

I would stand up and cheer at a scene like that.

Batman is the best when he steps out of the shadows and you know he's going to deliver a badass take down. That's his thing. But while Superman fighting can be cool my favorite parts are when he's saving someone, that's his thing.

Absolutely!  And this has always been my complaint about MoS.  You never really saw Superman being heroic.  Wandering Clark Kent, to an extent... but he also hung up that truck.

I know everyone gets tired of hearing me say it, but the best parts of Superman Returns were the scenes where he saved people and then brought the airplane down in the middle of Yankee Stadium. 

That's something the Batman can't do.  And I think you could easily make that realization a major point of character growth.  This movie won't.

[Kalbear]

Holy crap this review is mean.I mean, really...ouch. And I can't really see why he's wrong. Spoilers in it. 

[Rhom]

20 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Holy crap this review is mean.I mean, really...ouch. And I can't really see why he's wrong. Spoilers in it. 

Quote

this movie is relentlessly grim and gritty and resolutely No Fun Whatsoever,

Ouch... And yet totally unsurprising.   

[drawkcabi]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Agreed.  And while I didn't necessarily mean for Bats to break character... I think a real decision where he realizes he almost cost the lives of innocents while trying to kill Supes would make for a big "Ah Ha!" moment.

Absolutely!  And this has always been my complaint about MoS.  You never really saw Superman being heroic.  Wandering Clark Kent, to an extent... but he also hung up that truck.

I know everyone gets tired of hearing me say it, but the best parts of Superman Returns were the scenes where he saved people and then brought the airplane down in the middle of Yankee Stadium. 

That's something the Batman can't do.  And I think you could easily make that realization a major point of character growth.  This movie won't.

Agreed.

Best parts of MOS for me were Krypton and Wolverine Clark saving people on the boat, then the movie went to shit.