Suddenly Davos remembers Stannis and Shireen?

[Dragon in the North]

2 minutes ago, joaozinm said:

That would be okay if last episode he didn't ask again like "i don't know anything"

Learning of Stannis's defeat would have been pretty shocking to Davos and he would have taken time to process. After things quieted down and he accepted what happened, he was ready for the details.

[Boarsbane]

11 minutes ago, lancerman said:

When was he ever against magic? I know he was against using magic that required human sacrafice. I know he didn't like Mel burning people.   

I don't remember him being fundamentally against it. Especially for a good use. 

 

 

The only magic he's seen from her involves human sacrifice or is "black" so why would he assume Jon's resurrection wouldn't? The show runners killed Jon's friends off too soon obviously and so there was a lack of meaningful characters who'd want him brought back, so they had to use another well established character to convince Mel to do it even though there isn't much reason for Davos to have the desire to ask something like that. 

[MrsStocksey]

8 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

So now we have Davos hating Mel and her magic and he also tried to kill her once. Then season 5 comes, and Melisandre is basically responsible for the deaths of Shireen and Stannis, the two people who mean the most to Davos besides his own wife.

Now we add this two together. Davos hates mel and her magic -> Mel kills Shireen and indirectly kills Stannis.

Davos' reaction? Plz resurrect Jon Snow. 

Quality writing right here.

But Davos doesn't know that Mel burned Shireen....and Stannis made the decision to go to war at Winterfell by himself, where he died in battle (or so Davos thought).  These things aren't Mel's fault....at least as far as Davos knows.

He'll find out later what happened to Shireen, hence the shot in the trailer and will then hopefully react accordingly.  

Yes, he has always been very against magic, particularly when it involved killing/burning people but this was a different type of magic, 'good' magic for resurrection....a very different circumstance.  

[FoyeTwenty Boston]

 

12 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

Let's go step by step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwpyWHDrL8A

''Uniting the 7 kingdoms with blood magic is evil.'' Also he tried to kill Melisandre and opposed her basically until season 6. He saved Gendry from her and was disgusted by her shadow babies.

So now we have Davos hating Mel and her magic and he also tried to kill her once. Then season 5 comes, and Melisandre is basically responsible for the deaths of Shireen and Stannis, the two people who mean the most to Davos besides his own wife.

Now we add this two together. Davos hates mel and her magic -> Mel kills Shireen and indirectly kills Stannis.

Davos' reaction? Plz resurrect Jon Snow. 

Quality writing right here.

I think you are missing the entire point of the stories. People make decisions, not because they are good or evil, but because that's what they did at that moment in time. They compromised their beliefs or morals and they have to live with that. Just some live longer than others lol

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”

― William Faulkner

[Greg B]

20 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

Let's go step by step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwpyWHDrL8A

If you want to go step by step, you need to show what happens next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFjooACGLpI

Melisandre sides with Davos and saves his life. The relationship is far more ambivalent, conflicted, than you make it out. There is no indication that Davos believes all magic -- even Melisandre's magic -- is evil. They agree on where the real war is, who the real enemy is, and seem to agree that they're on the same side. This doesn't require that they be best friends -- that Davos approve of her human sacrifice, or than Melisandre approve of Davos's constant opposition to some of her methods.

[Wolf Assassin]

We have to take into account that Sansa had the Bolton after her. She properly had to take different route (longer route) than Mel. She's properly losing time hiding as well So I don't it's strange that she arrived to Castle Black at a much later time than Mel.

[GeorgeIAF]

5 minutes ago, Kenny Dang said:

We have to take into account that Sansa had the Bolton after her. She properly had to take different route (longer route) than Mel. She's properly losing time hiding as well So I don't it's strange that she arrived to Castle Black at a much later time than Mel.

This . Not to mention that Theon was in fact holding her back with his injuries. Meeting Brienne also delayed her arrival at Castle Black.

[Tolsimir]

16 minutes ago, MrsStocksey said:

But Davos doesn't know that Mel burned Shireen....and Stannis made the decision to go to war at Winterfell by himself, where he died in battle (or so Davos thought).  These things aren't Mel's fault....at least as far as Davos knows.

He'll find out later what happened to Shireen, hence the shot in the trailer and will then hopefully react accordingly.  

Yes, he has always been very against magic, particularly when it involved killing/burning people but this was a different type of magic, 'good' magic for resurrection....a very different circumstance.  

Last season they played it as if Davos knew what Mel and Stannis were planning to do with Shireen. So he must atleast suspect Melisandre did something. Also how can Davos know Mel has ''good and bad magic'' at her disposal??

16 minutes ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said:

 

I think you are missing the entire point of the stories. People make decisions, not because they are good or evil, but because that's what they did at that moment in time. They compromised their beliefs or morals and they have to live with that. Just some live longer than others lol

“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”

― William Faulkner

I don't see where the conflict is supposed to come for Davos. He hates Mel and her magic. So how on earth does he just ask this person he hates to do this thing he hates. How is he supposed to know everyting will turn out perfectly?? Because if he did, then I can see the conflict. Do I forgive this witch to save this guy, or not? But now it's like, do I forgive her for probably nothing in return? Because lets be real, there's no way Davos can know Mel will just resurrect people.

11 minutes ago, Greg B said:

If you want to go step by step, you need to show what happens next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFjooACGLpI

Melisandre sides with Davos and saves his life. The relationship is far more ambivalent, conflicted, than you make it out. There is no indication that Davos believes all magic -- even Melisandre's magic -- is evil. They agree on where the real war is, who the real enemy is, and seem to agree that they're on the same side. This doesn't require that they be best friends -- that Davos approve of her human sacrifice, or than Melisandre approve of Davos's constant opposition to some of her methods.

Yes, she saves his life. Because she sees it in her flames that he will be needed. Why should Davos feel any gratitude for that? And you say it yourself, Davos doesn't approve or her magic. So why would he ask her to do magic? How can Davos know Mel will do ''good magic'' when he asks her to? He has seen nothing that would indicate this, so again, why even ask to resurrect Jon?

 

I feel like there is a big problem with this discussion. When I say that a character makes no sense, I try to look at it from an ''in-world perspective'', if that makes sense. Let us try to get into Davos' head. He hates Mel and magic and knows nothing about different kinds of magic, let alone that Mel is capable of just resurrecting a guy. So why would such a person approach Mel and ask her to help someone with her magic, the magic that he only saw killing up to now. I just can't buy it.

But other people look at it from a ''plot perspective''. Davos and Jon are good guys who respect eachother -> Mel can resurrect Jon, which is a good thing -> good guy Davos wants to help good guy Jon -> Davos asks Mel for help and everyone is happy. I can buy that Davos wants to help Jon and that he would compromise with Mel for it, but he needs a reason for it. Just because the result was a success doesn't mean that his decision suddenly made sense.

It is the same as the Dany and Tyrion meet-up last year. The viewers had the knowledge that Tyrion was a super smart ''good guy'' who could help Dany. So when they joined everyone praised that scene, even though it made no sense if we ignore our viewer knowledge. Because Dany is known to have a temper while Tyrion comes from the family who killed Dany's father, Elia and Aegon. Then Tyrion comes in and says to Dany's face that he needs to see if she is worthy of his service. Yeah, right. As if that's gonna go well. Oh wait, it does. 

Basically what I'm trying to say is that we will never agree and that I'm out of this discussion.

 

[joaozinm]

8 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

Basically what I'm trying to say is that we will never agree and that I'm out of this discussion.

haha i understand  you, man.

[Greg B]

16 minutes ago, Tolsimir said:

Basically what I'm trying to say is that we will never agree and that I'm out of this discussion.

Heh. Fair enough. I think the show establishes that Melisandre and Davos are allies with a shared enemy, and that while Davos hates her human sacrifices, he doesn't hate her magic in general. There's no indication for instance that he hates her divinations, unless she's proposing to kill an innocent in order to fuel them.

FWIW, though, I do agree it's a modest contrivance that it would even occur to Davos to ask if she had any magic that could help Jon. On the other hand, while he's not a "learned man," he is very well traveled, and I have no problem imagining that he's heard many tales of eastern sorcery over the years. His experience with Melisandre has taught him they weren't all just tales, so he asks, "Can it be done?"

I don't think this was done for plot reasons. Melisandre could simply have decided to attempt it on her own, since she knows Thoros was capable of it. For the purposes of the plot, Davos didn't have to ask. I think the writers wanted to reinforce Davos's conviction that Jon is important, a seed that was first planted in Season 3 and cultivated in Season 5.

Anyway, I'm happy to accept a few modest contrivances in TV shows, especially if I can fill in the blanks in a satisfactory way on my own.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

20 good men presents...

[joaozinm]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

20 good men presents...

please... dont remind us of that.

[Darksky]

The assassination and resurrection happened within two or three days. Davos had a lot on his plate duing that time. Was he supposed to sit back and mope about Stannis with Thorne and others poised to murder him? Now that he has time to breathe, he can inquire about Stannis.  Come on, this is not even a nitpick, this is poking a hole in the whole just for the heck of it. Using common sense and paying attention goes a long way.

Stannis is dead and gone, he doesn't have to consume their lives and the plott even after it. One not mentioning something/someone (for like two days) does not equal one forgetting. 

What's up with some people wanting everything to be resolved in one episode? Are they the same with the books? Of course not, for them they have patience and give benefit of the doubt.  Patience for years of waiting for yet more dragged out arcs.

 

 

[Rubicante]

The fundamental problem was D & D choosing to have Melisandre accompany Stannis to Winterfell, when she never left the Wall in the books.  They needed her to be in two places at once in order for her to carry out two "shocking" moments (Sacrifice of Shireen and Resurrection of Jon). 

Add to this the bad decision of having Sansa replace Jeyne Poole in Winterfell, because.....eh, I don't even want to go through all the problems with getting her to Winterfell and having her escape Winterfell.

Because of these decisions, the timing of events doesn't make any sense.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

This is why I can't understand people that say this season is the best yet, and that the episodes are great.

The episodes have been full of contradictions, inconsistencies, plotholes, dumb scenes, horrible dialogue, focused on the wrong characters. 

Every character lost 100 IQ points.

Are people just watching the show just for the gore, bewbs and fight scenes? Because Logic has long left the show.

[Rubicante]

39 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

This is why I can't understand people that say this season is the best yet, and that the episodes are great.

The episodes have been full of contradictions, inconsistencies, plotholes, dumb scenes, horrible dialogue, focused on the wrong characters. 

Every character lost 100 IQ points.

Are people just watching the show just for the gore, bewbs and fight scenes? Because Logic has long left the show.

I find that when I watch through an episode on the first viewing, there usually isn't anything that is too offensive to me.  But then when I stop and start thinking about actually happened, I embark on this endless path where I can't stop finding problems.  So I think the casual viewer probably doesn't really stop to think.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

1 minute ago, Rubicante said:

I find that when I watch through an episode on the first viewing, there usually isn't anything that is too offensive to me.  But then when I stop and start thinking about actually happened, I embark on this endless path where I can't stop finding problems.  So I think the casual viewer probably doesn't really stop to think.

I guess I'll have to schedule a lobotomy before the next episode airing so I can enjoy it then.

[Greg B]

1 hour ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

This is why I can't understand people that say this season is the best yet, and that the episodes are great.

The episodes have been full of contradictions, inconsistencies, plotholes, dumb scenes, horrible dialogue, focused on the wrong characters. 

Every character lost 100 IQ points.

Wow, that's exactly how I feel about the last two books! I try not to extend that distaste to those who claim to enjoy them, though.

[Rubicante]

The thing I find so frustrating now is that I don't have a book in the series to ground me after watching the show.  Previously, something would massively piss me off in the show (ie. the trial by combat between Gregor and Oberyn, Drogon arriving at the Mereen fighting pits, the complete butchering of Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne and Stannis' characters to name a few), I would read the book and then reassure myself "Okay, this is what actually happens."

But with the The Winds of Winter not out, and I suspect it's probably not close to being finished either, I just get pissed off.  Thankfully this forum exists for me to vent.

[lyanna wolfgirl]

3 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

The thing I find so frustrating now is that I don't have a book in the series to ground me after watching the show.  Previously, something would massively piss me off in the show (ie. the trial by combat between Gregor and Oberyn, Drogon arriving at the Mereen fighting pits, the complete butchering of Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne and Stannis' characters to name a few), I would read the book and then reassure myself "Okay, this is what actually happens."

But with the The Winds of Winter not out, and I suspect it's probably not close to being finished either, I just get pissed off.  Thankfully this forum exists for me to vent.

+1